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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:00PM
Subject: controlling a CMS for access
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Hello:
We are trying to launch a large scale adoption of a cms. And are finding
most of it to be very accessible. however the semantic structure it
creates is not really that grate and inconsistent
So I can go to a page and the page starts with h3 and then the main
content is h1 and then sub headers are h4. Then on subpages the h3 becomes
an h2. We are basing our templates on Drupal 7 using the Panopoly
distribution and the panels module. Does anyone have any ideas how we can
help our users create more consistent structure and how we deal with the
skipped levels in the headings. I would like to play hard ball on this and
say that we should not allow out of order headers but the rest of what I
have seen works to well to not give in a little smile Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: McMorland, Gabriel C
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:18PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Who is affected by the out of order headers? Is it a visual experience issue?

I'm a blind JAWS user, and I'm very interested in your anser.

From: Rick Hill
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:19PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Lucy,

Unfortunately as far as headings go, under WCAG 2, any skipped levels will generate at best a warning from any tool. The reason? Under WCAG 2 AA, there are two ways to view headings.


1. The entire page can be organized top down as in an outline. If that is the case, then the first element on the page is an H1, the next is an H1 or H2. If its anb H2, the next element can be an H3 or an H2. And so on. No levels skipped.
2. The elements of the page are labelled for their semantic importance. So on a three column layout, the left and right columns are not the primary content. The center column is. So, the center column gets and H1 and the top of the two side columns end up with an H2. In the reading order, these will appear H2, H1, H2 … thus skipping a level at the top. If the left column has additional heading labels relative to starting H2 at the top of the column, it could be that the last element in the column is an H3 (or H4 or …). Which would make the reading order H2, H3, H1, H2

In fact, even in scenario 1, you could end up with a skip in heading order. Beneath the starting H1 I have an H2 that contains an h3 with sub H4's. The next H2 then would skip a level .. H1, H2, H3, H4, H4, H3, H4, H4, H2

Realistically, Web pages aren't laid out like outlines. HTML 5 tries to account for that by adding additional tags like article, section and aside. Each of these can contain its own heading arrangement. So, its not clear that that helps or not. Plus, AT browsers don't well support some of these newer tags.

We struggle with this in our Web CMS as well. If folks have flexibility to create content, then they can mislabel headings. It is not clear that headings can be "fixed" automatically (we're looking at that). And given the two mod3els the WCAG allows for the use of headings, we thing number 2 makes more sense.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Hill, Web CMS Administrator
Strategic Communications, UC Davis
(530) 752-9612
http://cms.ucdavis.edu

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:25PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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We always try to keep headers in order to keep the screen reader users
from hunting for what they might have missed. But mostly because we like
good semantic structure. I am also a screen reader user and I do find it a
little off setting when the first thing I hit on a page is a h3 or h5
witch yes does happen. I try and teach proper structure at least on the
home page to keep people from looking for what they might have missed. Yes
today it's not as important as it was say 5 years ago but I am stuck in my
old ways and don't think things should start at 4 or 5. I do not mind the
nab being at a 2 and then a 1 but starting a page at 3 always makes me
wonder. And then there is always the argument of the web search hits
smile Lucy
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Jim Allan
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:26PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Lucy, you should be able to modify the template that generates all pages to
fix your generated headings (navigation headings, top level heading on the
page). the template could also be modified to include landmarks and other
accessibility goodies. all of the other headings are up to the content
creators.

jim


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Rick Hill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Lucy,
>
> Unfortunately as far as headings go, under WCAG 2, any skipped levels will
> generate at best a warning from any tool. The reason? Under WCAG 2 AA,
> there are two ways to view headings.
>
>
> 1. The entire page can be organized top down as in an outline. If that
> is the case, then the first element on the page is an H1, the next is an H1
> or H2. If its anb H2, the next element can be an H3 or an H2. And so on. No
> levels skipped.
> 2. The elements of the page are labelled for their semantic importance.
> So on a three column layout, the left and right columns are not the primary
> content. The center column is. So, the center column gets and H1 and the
> top of the two side columns end up with an H2. In the reading order, these
> will appear H2, H1, H2 … thus skipping a level at the top. If the left
> column has additional heading labels relative to starting H2 at the top of
> the column, it could be that the last element in the column is an H3 (or H4
> or …). Which would make the reading order H2, H3, H1, H2
>
> In fact, even in scenario 1, you could end up with a skip in heading
> order. Beneath the starting H1 I have an H2 that contains an h3 with sub
> H4's. The next H2 then would skip a level .. H1, H2, H3, H4, H4, H3, H4,
> H4, H2
>
> Realistically, Web pages aren't laid out like outlines. HTML 5 tries to
> account for that by adding additional tags like article, section and aside.
> Each of these can contain its own heading arrangement. So, its not clear
> that that helps or not. Plus, AT browsers don't well support some of these
> newer tags.
>
> We struggle with this in our Web CMS as well. If folks have flexibility to
> create content, then they can mislabel headings. It is not clear that
> headings can be "fixed" automatically (we're looking at that). And given
> the two mod3els the WCAG allows for the use of headings, we thing number 2
> makes more sense.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rick Hill, Web CMS Administrator
> Strategic Communications, UC Davis
> (530) 752-9612
> http://cms.ucdavis.edu
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Web CMS assistance at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> From: Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Date: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:00 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: [WebAIM] controlling a CMS for access
>
> Hello:
> We are trying to launch a large scale adoption of a cms. And are finding
> most of it to be very accessible. however the semantic structure it
> creates is not really that grate and inconsistent
> So I can go to a page and the page starts with h3 and then the main
> content is h1 and then sub headers are h4. Then on subpages the h3 becomes
> an h2. We are basing our templates on Drupal 7 using the Panopoly
> distribution and the panels module. Does anyone have any ideas how we can
> help our users create more consistent structure and how we deal with the
> skipped levels in the headings. I would like to play hard ball on this and
> say that we should not allow out of order headers but the rest of what I
> have seen works to well to not give in a little smile Lucy
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> > > >



--
Jim Allan, Accessibility Coordinator & Webmaster
Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
voice 512.206.9315 fax: 512.206.9264 http://www.tsbvi.edu/
"We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." McLuhan, 1964

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:28PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Hello:
I agree with all you said. What is happening here is that the page is
starting with a h3 for the nav and then a h1 and then an h4 never hitting a
h2 anyway. Then if you dig in to the site it changes the h3 for the nav to
an h2 and we want to have it be consistent if it is wrong at least thanks

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: McMorland, Gabriel C
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:34PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Oh, good point. The idea that you might have missed something or that a feature might be inaccessible is such an important accessible design concept. I've often wished I had a word to sum up this concept. Do you have a word for this?
Users can lose time on a wild goose chase for phantom content they believe is missing, or misinterpret available information because they assume content is missing. I have also given up on tasks when I assumed they were inaccessible, only to later discover that I could complete the task but didn't have proper instructions or context.

With all that in mind, I never really paid attention to what level of heading tag I was reading. I always just jump from heading to heading to skim page content or get back to something that I need. You have a good point, though.

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:36PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Hello:
The problem is that the CMS picks witch header depending on the type of
content so in the FAQs we are getting a page with an header order of 3 1
4 4 4 and so on I was hoping someone had used this combination before and
could help us find the workaround thanks Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 1:40PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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I don't really have a single word for it but I think it follows in the can
a user get what they need in under 30 seconds rule. I do say a screen
reader user might take a minute but it's the same idea can you catch the
user and give them what they need to get them to stay on the page and
learn more or do they go some wear else thinking they missed it.
Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Rick Hill
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 2:52PM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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In our Web CMS, we assign a default header to certain blocks of content used on a page (like and FAQ block of content). Usually, that's correct. But not always. We provide a manual heading setting for each of our content blocks so a user can adjust this (assuming they know what to do with it!).
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Hill, Web CMS Administrator
Strategic Communications, UC Davis


From: Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Date: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:36 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] controlling a CMS for access

Hello:
The problem is that the CMS picks witch header depending on the type of
content so in the FAQs we are getting a page with an header order of 3 1
4 4 4 and so on I was hoping someone had used this combination before and
could help us find the workaround thanks Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: John E Brandt
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 11:33AM
Subject: Re: controlling a CMS for access
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Several folks have already hit on this...but just a few points for
clarification.

In all Content Management Systems (CMSs), Headings (H1, h2, etc.) in the
markup code are "controlled" in two ways. First, some of the Heading coding
is controlled by the template/theme you are using. Second, some of the
heading coding is controlled by content providers. To meet standards and
have a well-heeled site that has good usability too, you have two issues to
deal with.

Template/Theme issues: In nearly all CMSs, the Title of the site (often
coded as an H1 if text is used) and the specific content/page heading are
controlled by the theme/template. Some themes make the specific content/page
heading an H1, some an H2, I've even seen some use H3. But it depends on the
theme and the CMS. CMS templates and themes come in all kinds of shapes and
sizes, free and open source, free and proprietary, and some purchased from
developers. Some are good, some are bad. Some you can easily modify
yourself; some with effort. Sometimes the only way to know what layout the
theme uses, and the order it uses, is to take it for a test run (most theme
developers have a demo somewhere so you can see it in action). If I purchase
a theme, I always look for one who advertises that it meets W3 standards,
but then check the demo to make sure.

Content providers issues: This is a training and review issue. My experience
is that you can teach content providers over and over again about the
importance good semantic structure in the choice of headings, but you need
to have a review process after they create the content to make sure they
comply. My experience is that often content providers don't use any heading
markup when they should and instead use bolds and italics. If you have a big
organization with lots of content providers, this can be a full time job.

~j

John E. Brandt
jebswebs: accessible and universal web design,
development and consultation
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

@jebswebs