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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: David Ashleydale
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 5:28PM
Subject: Front End Developers and ATs
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Hi,

I started out my current job as a front-end developer (FED), but later
branched out into managing an accessibility program. But I remember that
when I was a developer, I used to keep a copy of JAWS on a computer nearby
for testing. To me, even if I were following HTML standards, I never really
felt *confident* that what I was coding would work well for a screen reader
user unless I tried it out myself. JAWS was one of my developer tools.

It was very similar to browser testing. If I was told that I had to support
IE, Firefox, Chrome, or whatever, I can't imagine not trying the page out
in the browsers I was supporting. Even if I knew I was coding to standard
and I had done it a million times before, I would still want to try it out
when I was done.

I'm thinking of recommending that all FEDs at the company I work at acquire
and learn how to use an AT or two as part of their development toolkit. I'd
love to hear this group's thoughts on whether or not that seems impractical
or perhaps even unnecessary. Or is this something that all FEDs should be
doing as part of their job?

Of course, my follow up question is: Which ATs would form a good
(cost-effective) development toolkit?

Thanks!
David

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 5:55PM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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That's an awesome idea, and one I'd recommend for all engineering students
as well.

If you cover JAWS in IE, NVDA in Firefox, and VO in iOS touch screen
devices, you will hit the majority of the market.

Secondarily is VO on the Mac, and TalkBack on the Android, but support for
complex dynamic behaviors won't be as well supported there, so it's good to
keep that in mind.


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 4:28 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] Front End Developers and ATs


> Hi,
>
> I started out my current job as a front-end developer (FED), but later
> branched out into managing an accessibility program. But I remember that
> when I was a developer, I used to keep a copy of JAWS on a computer nearby
> for testing. To me, even if I were following HTML standards, I never
> really
> felt *confident* that what I was coding would work well for a screen
> reader
> user unless I tried it out myself. JAWS was one of my developer tools.
>
> It was very similar to browser testing. If I was told that I had to
> support
> IE, Firefox, Chrome, or whatever, I can't imagine not trying the page out
> in the browsers I was supporting. Even if I knew I was coding to standard
> and I had done it a million times before, I would still want to try it out
> when I was done.
>
> I'm thinking of recommending that all FEDs at the company I work at
> acquire
> and learn how to use an AT or two as part of their development toolkit.
> I'd
> love to hear this group's thoughts on whether or not that seems
> impractical
> or perhaps even unnecessary. Or is this something that all FEDs should be
> doing as part of their job?
>
> Of course, my follow up question is: Which ATs would form a good
> (cost-effective) development toolkit?
>
> Thanks!
> David
> > >

From: Jacob Kruger
Date: Wed, Aug 28 2013 11:12PM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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One of the first pages/places I refer sighted web developers to when they
ask about content accessibility, etc. is following tutorial page:
http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/_Surfs_Up_Start_Here.htm

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
'...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...'

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ashleydale" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:28 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Front End Developers and ATs


> Hi,
>
> I started out my current job as a front-end developer (FED), but later
> branched out into managing an accessibility program. But I remember that
> when I was a developer, I used to keep a copy of JAWS on a computer nearby
> for testing. To me, even if I were following HTML standards, I never
> really
> felt *confident* that what I was coding would work well for a screen
> reader
> user unless I tried it out myself. JAWS was one of my developer tools.
>
> It was very similar to browser testing. If I was told that I had to
> support
> IE, Firefox, Chrome, or whatever, I can't imagine not trying the page out
> in the browsers I was supporting. Even if I knew I was coding to standard
> and I had done it a million times before, I would still want to try it out
> when I was done.
>
> I'm thinking of recommending that all FEDs at the company I work at
> acquire
> and learn how to use an AT or two as part of their development toolkit.
> I'd
> love to hear this group's thoughts on whether or not that seems
> impractical
> or perhaps even unnecessary. Or is this something that all FEDs should be
> doing as part of their job?
>
> Of course, my follow up question is: Which ATs would form a good
> (cost-effective) development toolkit?
>
> Thanks!
> David
> > > >

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 12:45AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi David,

Am 29 Aug 2013 um 01:28 schrieb David Ashleydale < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Of course, my follow up question is: Which ATs would form a good
> (cost-effective) development toolkit?

one very important aspect to keep in mind - depending on how you count, just a very small portion of people that suffer from a disability that makes accessing or interacting with electronic content or software difficult, are people with no or low vision. Many more suffer from other types of disabilities. There is a high risk of always only focusing people with limited vision, and the AT they use. While content that is accessible to people using a tool like a screen reader, with text to speech and/or Braille output and/or screen magnification, tends to also be more or less accessible to other people with disabilities there is no guarantee. There is even a risk that - because some content providers and developers try to accommodate weaknesses in today's screen readers - mechanisms are introduced that can make it more difficult for other people to access the content.

Olaf

From: Joe Chidzik
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 1:50AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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> Of course, my follow up question is: Which ATs would form a good
> (cost-effective) development toolkit?

The simplest check that I always recommend developers use is to interact with their websiteapplication using just the keyboard. This can reveal several potential issues:
-Focus not visible (web pages)
-Logical tab order present (appswebsites)
-All functionality keyboard accessible (appswebsites)

There are only a few keystrokes required to carry out the testing, and no special equipmentsoftware needed.

I also often point people to the WebAIM guide on using NVDA for website testing. Whilst screenreaders are complex applications, for testing only a small subset of keyboard shortcuts are required: http://webaim.org/articles/nvda/

Cheers
Joe

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 1:59AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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David Ashleydale wrote:
"I'm thinking of recommending that all FEDs at the company I work at acquire
and learn how to use an AT or two as part of their development toolkit. I'd
love to hear this group's thoughts on whether or not that seems impractical
or perhaps even unnecessary. Or is this something that all FEDs should be
doing"

It's a great idea for developers to experience different assistive
technologies. One thing needs to be made very clear to them though: It's not
a good idea to base design decisions only on their experiences, or based on
the behaviours of a specific technology.

It's 101 for people on this list, but I came up against a classic example
recently. A developer who had downloaded Jaws and was using it to explore
the website he was building.

The developer was on the brink of rewriting lots of text content to reduce
the amount of punctuation that was spoken by the screen reader, not
realising that punctuation settings are among the most commonly changed by
Jaws users, or that other screen readers have a less verbose punctuation
setting as default. In doing so he would have altered the grammatical
quality of the content, unintentionally having an impact on other people.

Léonie.

From: dinesh.kaushal
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 2:14AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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Some people misunderstand accessibility from keyboard to mean that everything should be tabbable.

And this misperception is increased further by SAP Web Dyn Pro till version 7.3 , which suggested that virtual buffer should not be used so even text is readable with tab and working with web dyn pro applications requires tons of tabs.

With warm regards
Dinesh Kaushal
Technical Lead |Information Systems - MyWipro | Accessibility
PMI Certified Associate Project Manager
Mobile: 9900096374
Blog: http://dineshkaushal.blogspot.com

The energy between two people is what creates great marriages, families, teams, and organizations -- Tom Rath.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." -- Socrates

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 2:49AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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David Ashleydale wrote:
"I'm thinking of recommending that all FEDs at the company I work at acquire and learn how to use an AT or two as part of their development toolkit. I'd love to hear this group's thoughts on whether or not that seems impractical or perhaps even unnecessary. Or is this something that all FEDs should be doing"

My view is that a professional FED absolutely must have a strong understanding not only of assistive technologies and how to use them, but also how people use them in practice. I would extend that to having a wider knowledge of people with disabilities who do not use ATs. That means spending a significant amount of time working with and observing such people.

If a FED is not willing to take the time to do this, I would find it difficult to consider them as professionals, no matter how good they are at coding.

It is not difficult to get this experience even if you have to do it yourself without the support of your company. When I started I just called up some disability support groups and asked if they could put me in touch with some people who were willing to spend a few hours with me in exchange for a reasonable payment.

Steve Green

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 3:10AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
← Previous message | Next message →

David Ashleydale wrote:

> I'm thinking of recommending that all FEDs at the company I work at acquire
> and learn how to use an AT or two as part of their development toolkit.
>

That's good, but I wouldn't *start* with screen readers.

It's old ground and things have changed a little, but historically I would
have said don't get developers to test with screen readers at all [1]. You
are very likely to create unnecessary work because people who don't use a
screen reader because they need to will experience things differently.
Leonie's example is fairly common, and I've seen others around how people
navigate as well.

I would *start* with keyboard-only (visual) access, as Joe suggested. Not
only will you pick up problems that affect screen readers as well, it acts
as a much better foundation and requires no special technology. (Although
if they are on a Mac they may need to tweak the Safari settings to get
tabbing working properly.)

Secondly I would test with browser zoom (or text sizing if you aren't using
responsive web design techniques), and check you don't loose
content/functionality.

Then I would suggest each developer uses either NVDA (on PC) or VoiceOver
(Mac) to check things, but consult an accessibility specialist (I assume
you in this case) before making changes based on that experience.

NB: I'm not making any comment about importance of different audiences or
technologies.

If the site is doing complex things which require WAI-ARIA then more
iterative testing is required across a wider range of screen readers
(Bryan's extended list) with an accessibility specialist. If your
organization has a large public interest (e.g. Government or public service
provider) then you should consider a wider-ranging QA process involving
those screen readers and a couple of older versions of each as well.

I wouldn't go as far as Steve in terms of developers watching people use
technology for a 'significant' amount of time. Not many organisations will
take people off their work for this. Developers should have solid basic
knowledge, most easily done through training and some viewing of
accessibility testing, ideally from testing your site. I'd consider it
equivalent to general usability testing. If you have specialists for UX &
usability testing, the same principle applies to accessibility. (Of course,
if you don't then he has a point!)

I would suggest having one or more (depending on the size of the team)
people who spend more time on accessibility and can act as specialists
(e.g. spending more time using different screen readers, watching usability
testing with PWD, and understand the impact of WAI-ARIA). Or get a partner
organisation to fulfil that role.

Hth,

-Alastair

1] http://alastairc.ac/2007/07/testing-with-a-screen-reader/

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 3:35AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Steve,

Am 29 Aug 2013 um 10:49 schrieb Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> When I started I just called up some disability support groups and asked if they could put me in touch with some people who were willing to spend a few hours with me in exchange for a reasonable payment.

I would be very careful here…:

- seeing people with disabilities interact with IT is extremely useful to raise awareness (one immediately begins too understand why it makes sense to invest a reasonable amount of effort to make some electronic content or piece of software accessible);

- in order to learn about the best approach, the average user with disabilities is not the best point of contact, rather try to get in touch with experts specialising in user interaction for people with disabilities (and make sure they have a decent expertise across various types of disabilities, not just blindness or low vision / use of screen readers); the main reason is that most users (disabled or not) develop a very personal style of interacting with IT, easily arriving at idiosyncratic approaches (which work well for them but not necessarily for others); keep in mind that any two people can develop very different styles - just think of preferring keyboard over mouse or vice versa. For example, personally it drives me crazy to see users use the mouse where I would use a keyboard shortcut. But that does not mean it is a bad thing for those users - using the mouse might be more efficient for them, and I am in no position to tell them they are not doing the right thing. I can nevertheless (try to) insist that keyboard use must also always be possible (and they can rightfully insist mouse interaction, or trackpad or gesture based interaction, must always be possible).


Olaf

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 3:45AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
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I agree that you need to be careful, so it is important to work with a variety of people. Of course it would be ideal if design companies brought in specialist consultants but that comes at a significant cost that individuals certainly can't afford if their company won't pay.

However, even working with one person is better than not working with any, which is where almost every FED is right now.

Steve

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 4:55AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
← Previous message | Next message →

Steve Green wrote:

> I agree that you need to be careful, so it is important to work with a
> variety of people [snip] However, even working with one person is better
> than not working with any, which is where almost every FED is right now.
>

I guess this comes down to what we think a useful minimum is? I think we
agree that exposure is useful, but you need the macro view as well.

Given little resource, what would we recommend for a front-end developer? I
would suggest:
- A training day on web accessibility, something fairly practical that
covers the different interaction styles. This should help with the big
picture view, and provide some basis for interpreting results.
- Whenever the organisation conducts usability / accessibility testing,
observing all the sessions (assuming it's done by other people).
- Adding things to their personal development plan (I guess most places
have those back-burner internal projects that people do for their own
development?), like assessing their own work against the guidelines, and
testing it with various AT.

Any other useful, not too expensive things FEDs can do?

-Alastair

From: David Ashleydale
Date: Thu, Aug 29 2013 10:20AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
← Previous message | Next message →

Wow, lot's of great feedback! I should have also said, though, that I
didn't mean to just give JAWS to a developer with no accessibility
training. The developers will already know how to code with accessibility
in mind. I was just wondering if I should insist that they also use ATs in
their work for when they are coding new things. Giving them ATs would also
be accompanied by training in how to use the ATs, from the point of view of
regular users of those ATs.

But lots of great points above. I'm going to go write some of them down and
let you know what we have so far as a recommendation.

Thanks!
David


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Steve Green wrote:
>
> > I agree that you need to be careful, so it is important to work with a
> > variety of people [snip] However, even working with one person is better
> > than not working with any, which is where almost every FED is right now.
> >
>
> I guess this comes down to what we think a useful minimum is? I think we
> agree that exposure is useful, but you need the macro view as well.
>
> Given little resource, what would we recommend for a front-end developer? I
> would suggest:
> - A training day on web accessibility, something fairly practical that
> covers the different interaction styles. This should help with the big
> picture view, and provide some basis for interpreting results.
> - Whenever the organisation conducts usability / accessibility testing,
> observing all the sessions (assuming it's done by other people).
> - Adding things to their personal development plan (I guess most places
> have those back-burner internal projects that people do for their own
> development?), like assessing their own work against the guidelines, and
> testing it with various AT.
>
> Any other useful, not too expensive things FEDs can do?
>
> -Alastair
> > > >

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Fri, Aug 30 2013 2:12AM
Subject: Re: Front End Developers and ATs
← Previous message | No next message

Thanks David, good to know.

Also, it would be fantastic if you could pop a reminder in your calendar
for 6 months from now, and let us know how it went?

It sounds presumptuous, but we (people on the list) rarely hear back from
people that we aren't actively involved with through work, so the long term
effects of this stuff are unknown when hands-off. It would be great to have
a short 6-months in story. E.g. "Most of the developers were fine with it,
but a couple tended to be the go-to people", or "it's now just part of the
process".

I get that sort of feedback from our clients, but we are more actively
involved there, so it's not the same.

Cheers,

-Alastair



On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:20 PM, David Ashleydale < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Wow, lot's of great feedback! I should have also said, though, that I
> didn't mean to just give JAWS to a developer with no accessibility
> training. The developers will already know how to code with accessibility
> in mind. I was just wondering if I should insist that they also use ATs in
> their work for when they are coding new things. Giving them ATs would also
> be accompanied by training in how to use the ATs, from the point of view of
> regular users of those ATs.
>
> But lots of great points above. I'm going to go write some of them down and
> let you know what we have so far as a recommendation.
>
> Thanks!
> David
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:55 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Steve Green wrote:
> >
> > > I agree that you need to be careful, so it is important to work with a
> > > variety of people [snip] However, even working with one person is
> better
> > > than not working with any, which is where almost every FED is right
> now.
> > >
> >
> > I guess this comes down to what we think a useful minimum is? I think we
> > agree that exposure is useful, but you need the macro view as well.
> >
> > Given little resource, what would we recommend for a front-end
> developer? I
> > would suggest:
> > - A training day on web accessibility, something fairly practical that
> > covers the different interaction styles. This should help with the big
> > picture view, and provide some basis for interpreting results.
> > - Whenever the organisation conducts usability / accessibility testing,
> > observing all the sessions (assuming it's done by other people).
> > - Adding things to their personal development plan (I guess most places
> > have those back-burner internal projects that people do for their own
> > development?), like assessing their own work against the guidelines, and
> > testing it with various AT.
> >
> > Any other useful, not too expensive things FEDs can do?
> >
> > -Alastair
> > > > > > > >
> > > >