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Number of posts in this thread: 20 (In chronological order)

From: Johnson, Melissa
Date: Thu, Jan 30 2014 10:19AM
Subject: Reading tables in JAWS
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Hi all,

I'm trying to better understand how JAWS users read tables. I have my
own expectations of what I think JAWS should do, however, these are
based on how I view the Web as a sighted user. Any insight as to how
actual users of JAWS software scan and read tables is greatly
appreciated, as are any links to additional information. (Note that I
have reviewed the WebAIM information, WCAG 2.0, various YouTube
videos, and a few other random sites.)

Thank you in advance,

Melissa

Melissa Johnson

Senior Instructional Designer | Professional Services | Pearson eCollege
tel: 303.658.1647 | email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Pearson
Always Learning

From: Bourne, Sarah (ITD)
Date: Thu, Jan 30 2014 10:47AM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Melissa,

Freedom Scientific has a page on navigating to and through tables with JAWS and MAGic. While it's not the same as what people actually do, it does tell you what they tell users to do.
http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/Tables.htm

sb
Sarah E. Bourne
Director of Assistive Technology
Information Technology Division
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
1 Ashburton Pl. rm 1601 Boston MA 02108
617-626-4502
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.mass.gov/itd

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Thu, Jan 30 2014 11:31AM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Melissa Johnson wrote:
"I'm trying to better understand how JAWS users read tables. I have my own
expectations of what I think JAWS should do, however, these are based on how
I view the Web as a sighted user."

I suspect that we all do it slightly differently. Providing the table is
marked up correctly, it should cater for most typical table navigation
strategies.

Have you come across a table that is causing Jaws users to take an approach
other than the one you were expecting?

Léonie.

From: Ron Stewart
Date: Thu, Jan 30 2014 1:35PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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While this is a good question, I think you might want to think a bit more
expansively to how would a screen reader process this content. JAWS is just
one of the major screen readers and evaluating against JAWS will not insure
accessibility it will test conformance with JAWS.

Ron Stewart

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 2:25PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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JAWS does have a set of "table reading commands," but it is my observation that most users don't know, or use them. Most people just arrow down, or read continuously, I suspect.

Dave

From: Hewitt,Susan (DSHS)
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 2:34PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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That has not been my observation with JAWS users. Granted, it has a big learning curve so newer users may be unfamiliar with all of its features. But experienced users are not reading every page continuously (in fact I think most rarely do this.) This is why it's important to use semantic markup. It's much easier for the user to navigate the page by heading, or links, or landmarks - whatever helps them find what they're looking for.

As far as tables...can you imagine just arrowing down or reading a large, complex table continuously? Without the JAWS table commands - and a properly marked up table - it easily can become impossible for a user to understand that table..

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 2:36PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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I agree with that, some people use headings, some use link lists etc. I was talking about the tables themselves though.

Dave

From: Ron Stewart
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 2:46PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Good afternoon,

I think this reflects a common misconception of AT users that is very
detrimental to our ongoing accessibility work. The vast majority of users
of AT, like screen readers, tend to use less than 10% of their
functionality, just like most software users. It is critical to efficient
use of content that good semantic markup be used. Why should I have to hit
hundreds of keystrokes when if the content was properly marked up I could
get to it much more efficiently.

The second would be that you cannot just design for JAWS accessibility you
need to base your design on accepted standards using OS keyboard commands.
Most of my users cannot afford JAWS, but they should be able to access my
content using NVDA or VoiceOver with a similar experience!

Ron Stewart

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 2:47PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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I agree that experienced users generally don't read pages continuously, but the exception is data tables. In our user testing we find that almost no one uses the table navigation commands - they all 'arrow' through tables. The only person I can recall who did use table navigation was a JAWS trainer, and even he could make no sense of complex tables with either multiple levels of headings or colspans or rowspans. It was just impossible to construct a mental model of what he was hearing even though the tables were marked up correctly.

Steve Green

From: Hewitt,Susan (DSHS)
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 2:52PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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> Most of my users cannot afford JAWS, but they should be able to access my content using NVDA or VoiceOver with a similar experience!

Semantic coding (scopes, header & id attributes on tables, etc.) is definitely the best way to try and reach this goal. Personally, I don't know of how to code specifically for one type of screen reader but I do know how to write accessible, semantic HTML.

From Steve,
> The only person I can recall who did use table navigation was a JAWS trainer, and even he could make no sense of complex tables with either multiple levels of headings >or colspans or rowspans.

He must not have known of the Ctrl-Alt-Num Pad 5 shortcut which tells exactly where you are in the table with all applicable headers. (Assuming the person who made the site coded it accessibly. ;)

I'm curious to hear from actual AT users so shall say no more on this topic. Also, it's time to go home.

Susan

From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 3:08PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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You shouldn't need to code for just one specific screen reader as long as you code to standards.

From: Roger Hudson
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 3:29PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Not all screen readers have the same capabilities when it comes to data
tables, and we shouldn't assume all screen reader users use them in the same
way. I recently observed a sight impaired JAWS user, with many years
experience, who to my surprise used a data table with just the arrow keys.
This person seemed genuinely surprised when I demonstrated the
alt+cTRL+arrow keys and alt+crtl+5 shortcuts.

Roger

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 3:35PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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The problem is not that the users didn't know where they were, it's that it is extremely difficult to form a mental model of complex tables when you are reading them one cell at a time. It is important to test with 'real' users, as we do, because the AT users on this list are far more proficient than the general public.

Steve Green

From: Don Mauck
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 3:59PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Anyone that just uses the arrow keys or the tab keys will never be able to successfully use and navigate tables using a screen reader.

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 4:09PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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On 4 Feb 2014, at 23:59, Don Mauck < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Anyone that just uses the arrow keys or the tab keys will never be able to successfully use and navigate tables using a screen reader.

why is that? Aren't arrow keys a good default method to walk through a table?

It would be a matter of setting user preferences to control how much accompanying information - on top of the cell's content - would be presented (like type of cell, applicable header cells, etc.)

Olaf

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 4:46PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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It depends on the type of content and the interaction model.

For example, the following table is an interactive ARIA Data Grid
http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Data%20Grids/ARIA%20Data%20Grid%20(Dynamic)/demo.htm
and is designed to have one tab stop and to allow screen reader access using
the arrow keys.

However, the most basic types of table, as seen at
http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-up/Tables.htm
require the use of the Virtual Cursor to navigate them effectively.

Standard table navigation commands have existed for many years now, so it
really comes down to whether or not the AT user has had introductory
training on this type of screen reader functionality.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Olaf Drümmer" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Reading tables in JAWS


> On 4 Feb 2014, at 23:59, Don Mauck < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Anyone that just uses the arrow keys or the tab keys will never be able
>> to successfully use and navigate tables using a screen reader.
>
> why is that? Aren't arrow keys a good default method to walk through a
> table?
>
> It would be a matter of setting user preferences to control how much
> accompanying information - on top of the cell's content - would be
> presented (like type of cell, applicable header cells, etc.)
>
> Olaf
>
> > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 8:01PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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We must remember that the assistive technology software and the end
user is as much a part of accessibility as the webpage authors.
It is up to the assistive technology that targets a certain population
to use technical advances and user testing to find ways to make all
manner of information, including complex tables, intuitive for that
user population.
It is up to the end user and the system around the end user to make
sure he or she receives sufficient training to use that assistive
technology to pick up information, which is the ultimate purpose of
accessibility.
If we do not go by this model, we might as well not bother to mark up
data tables correctly, since no end users understand them anyway.
The alternative would be to expect the webpage or content developer
invent some sort of a workaround that they think would better
communicate the information to users with disability x using assistive
technology application y.
This is an impossible task. After all users with disabilities
understandably do not want to self identify on the web, so creating
content optimized for certain groups of users with assistive
technologies is impossible.

All we can expect the webpage developers to do is to mark up the
content in a standard manner that communicates all the relevant
information and relations of page components to each other to the
assistive technologies.
If users are not taking advantage of accessible markup, it means that
more attention must be given to sufficient training and more
consistent assistive technology support.
I have always felt that sadly this segment of accessibility has often
not received the attention that it deserves.

In a survey that me and my colleague carried out last year, involving
450 screen reader users, over 70% of them claimed to navigate tables
using table navigation commands.
Of course the survey is biased in that only users with the skills to
take an online survey, and the interest to do so, were involved.
Also we cannot verify precisely what they mean by "table navigation keys".

I hope that the advent of the touchscreen interface, with
possibilities of raising certain areas of the screen to form a tactile
pattern is the next step in the evolution of accessible interfaces,
one which may help give better context and spatial understanding for
users who are blind.
Fortunately we live in exciting times when it comes to technology.
All that being said, it is important to make tables accessible to the
extent possible, using standard html and accessibility techniques, and
rely on assistive technologies to interpret them and end users to
understand how to extract the information from them.
Optimizing information for a given assistive technology should only be
the case in extremely rare and specialized circumstances.
Cheers
-B
Birkir Gunnarsson
Senior Accessibility Consultant | Deque Systems



On 2/4/14, Bryan Garaventa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> It depends on the type of content and the interaction model.
>
> For example, the following table is an interactive ARIA Data Grid
> http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Data%20Grids/ARIA%20Data%20Grid%20(Dynamic)/demo.htm
> and is designed to have one tab stop and to allow screen reader access using
>
> the arrow keys.
>
> However, the most basic types of table, as seen at
> http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-up/Tables.htm
> require the use of the Virtual Cursor to navigate them effectively.
>
> Standard table navigation commands have existed for many years now, so it
> really comes down to whether or not the AT user has had introductory
> training on this type of screen reader functionality.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Olaf Drümmer" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 3:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Reading tables in JAWS
>
>
>> On 4 Feb 2014, at 23:59, Don Mauck < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone that just uses the arrow keys or the tab keys will never be able
>>> to successfully use and navigate tables using a screen reader.
>>
>> why is that? Aren't arrow keys a good default method to walk through a
>> table?
>>
>> It would be a matter of setting user preferences to control how much
>> accompanying information - on top of the cell's content - would be
>> presented (like type of cell, applicable header cells, etc.)
>>
>> Olaf
>>
>> >> >> >
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Tue, Feb 04 2014 10:35PM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Hello:
Nicely said. I would echo you on one point. The deficiency is not only
in the AT but in the training given to at users I regrettably know of
to many at users that don't know that there are ways to navigate a table
besides just using the down aero to read line by line. If you don't use
table nav commands using left and write only move letter by letter so
telling someone to navigate a table with arrows only just does not work. I
would say in my 9 years of working with college students of the top
caliber of the ones that come to Berkley, only 1 in 10 new how to read
tables at all. many of my students did not even know why there screen
reader even bothered to tell them about tables.
I would teach them how to use table commands and they would always rely
on them from that point on. they all came back and said I can do so much
more now that I know that .

Unfortunately I feel that a majority of people training AT least in
California really don't have a clue about how to really use a screen
reader let alone train someone to the point where they can become
proficient. I know that seems harsh but I have run in to so many trainers
that don't even look at the new features list when the screen reader
updates or the training tools the venders build in to say any of them are
any good at their jobs.


Jaws and NVDA both do a very good job on tables but how many people use
the feature is limited to how many people get taught how to use it. window
eyes the last time I tried to use it on a table just failed miserably.
At that point in time over 3 years ago now, windoweyes 7.0 if a table had
an imbedded form and yes it was appropriate the user would fill out the
form in table mode and as soon as they left table mode the form entry's
would be cleared away. Needless to say I stopped supporting windoeyes at
that time and focused on jaws and NVDA. I do think the way voice over
treats tables is good but I hate the concept of interacting and not
interacting that voiceover uses at the best of times. smile I fear the
change in the screen reader market is not for the good of access because
more people will start using windoeyes now so we need to find ways to
support them even if the screen reader market has better free choices.
Sorry for the long rant Lucy

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu Http://accessaces.com
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Wed, Feb 05 2014 5:10AM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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Actually, I agree with the thought that the level students are taught can be lacking. I recently completed a class on document testing and remediation. I had no idea of many of the key strokes and options introduced to us. I have only been blind for nine years and I know others who have been blind lifelong and cannot operate a computer as well as I. For certain, the rehab school where I attended for one year paled in comparison to the training I now have.

In the past, I have wondered and heard others make comments about the cost of JAWS. After experiencing that class, I now have a clearer understanding of the costs involved to develop a product to the depth in which it has been developed.

JAWS has a lot of capacity packed into it. Unfortunately, too many blind and low vision students are simply not introduced to them. Is it another example of low expectations? Perhaps a version of JAWS Lite would be good for just the fundamental features?

Michelle

From: Don Mauck
Date: Wed, Feb 05 2014 7:36AM
Subject: Re: Reading tables in JAWS
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For most standard tables you will miss getting accurate information from the columns and rows that match the data in the cells of the table. If you are using an ARIA grid then using the arrow keys will be sufficient. Remember that using the tab key inside a table is different than using the table reading commands and while it shouldn't happen, there are times that the form field elements might not be labeled so you get screen readers that start guessing which can also complicate things.
This is certainly a challenge to get screen reader users to really know their product, and think "beyond the tab key.,