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From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 2:23AM
Subject: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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I was wondering how intuitive JAWS users find the shortcut for jumping to a tabpanel container when interacting with an ARIA Tab
group in Firefox.



For example, if you visit

http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20and%20Non-ARIA%20Tabs/ARIA%20Tabs%20(Internal%20Content)/demo.htm

Using JAWS in Firefox, arrowing to the currently open Tab will say the following "Use JAWSKey+Alt+M to jump to the controlled
element".



(This occurs when you have aria-controls set on the Tab triggering element which then points to the newly rendered tabpanel
container.)



So, on the Desktop layout, the JAWSKey is the Insert key, which is usually easiest to activate from the Numpad0 key.



I've tried pressing Insert+Alt+M as instructed, and personally it's like trying to do finger gymnastics using both hands.



Does anybody else find this difficult?

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 2:55AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIATabs in FF?
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Bryan Garaventa wrote:
"I've tried pressing Insert+Alt+M as instructed, and personally it's like
trying to do finger gymnastics using both hands."

Some key commands come easily to the fingertips, but this one I always have
to stop and think about before executing.

I'm guessing m is the chosen key because of the m for move mnemonic, but
coupled with insert and alt, it's very awkward. It would be easier,
physically speaking, if the chosen key was located on the left hand side of
the keyboard, although I'm struggling to think of a user friendly mnemonic
for any of the keys in that part of the board.

Léonie.

--
@LeonieWatson Carpe diem

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 6:24AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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For the last 3 years I have mapped the JawsKey to capslock, both
because I mostly use laptops but also because I find some of the key
combinations easier to do.
Cheers

On 7/4/14, Léonie Watson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
> "I've tried pressing Insert+Alt+M as instructed, and personally it's like
> trying to do finger gymnastics using both hands."
>
> Some key commands come easily to the fingertips, but this one I always have
> to stop and think about before executing.
>
> I'm guessing m is the chosen key because of the m for move mnemonic, but
> coupled with insert and alt, it's very awkward. It would be easier,
> physically speaking, if the chosen key was located on the left hand side of
> the keyboard, although I'm struggling to think of a user friendly mnemonic
> for any of the keys in that part of the board.
>
> Léonie.
>
> --
> @LeonieWatson Carpe diem
>
>

From: David Farough
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 7:32AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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Hi Brian:
I almost never use this facility. Like you I find the keystrokes
required to do this more trouble than it's worth. It seems strange to
me that this feature is not provided for users of Internet Explorer. I
think that it would be much better if pressing tab would take you to the
beginning of content in the tab panel. this is an example of a problem
that many users will experience because there is no standard way to use
these elements.

David Farough
coordonateur de l'accessibilité
/Application Accessibility Coordinator
Direction des services d'information technologiques /
Information Technology Services Directorate
Commission de la fonction publique /Public Service Commission
Courriel / Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tél / Tel. (819) 420-8418


>>> "Bryan Garaventa" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 04:23 AM Friday,
July 04, 2014 >>>
I was wondering how intuitive JAWS users find the shortcut for jumping
to a tabpanel container when interacting with an ARIA Tab
group in Firefox.




>
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>
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From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 8:11AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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If you press JawsKey-F2, then "k" for "keyboard manager", press enter
to activate it for curren application, then tab into the scripts, you
can reassign keys to the most frequently used scripts from within that
area (on the script you want, just press alt-a, the combination you
want and enter).
That being said, yes, the lack of standard traditions for keyboard
widgets is trouble for accessibility for both screen reader and
keyboard only users.
For instance, should users always expect to be able to use their arrow
keys to move between tabs in a tablist, an the tab key will only move
focus to the active tab?
I like this pattern if it weren't for the fact that it is not obvious
to me and not consistent across all websites.
Some simply map links to tabs but do not set tabindex to -1 for all
the inactive tabs.
But that is a discussion for a whole different thread.


On 7/4/14, David Farough < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Brian:
> I almost never use this facility. Like you I find the keystrokes
> required to do this more trouble than it's worth. It seems strange to
> me that this feature is not provided for users of Internet Explorer. I
> think that it would be much better if pressing tab would take you to the
> beginning of content in the tab panel. this is an example of a problem
> that many users will experience because there is no standard way to use
> these elements.
>
> David Farough
> coordonateur de l'accessibilité
> /Application Accessibility Coordinator
> Direction des services d'information technologiques /
> Information Technology Services Directorate
> Commission de la fonction publique /Public Service Commission
> Courriel / Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Tél / Tel. (819) 420-8418
>
>
>>>> "Bryan Garaventa" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 04:23 AM Friday,
> July 04, 2014 >>>
> I was wondering how intuitive JAWS users find the shortcut for jumping
> to a tabpanel container when interacting with an ARIA Tab
> group in Firefox.
>
>
>
>
> >
> Ce courriel est destiné exclusivement au destinataire mentionné en titre
> et peut contenir de l'information privilégiée, confidentielle ou
> soustraite à la communication aux termes des lois applicables. Toute
> divulgation non autorisée, toute reproduction ou réacheminement est
> interdit. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire de ce courriel, ou n'êtes
> pas autorisé par le destinataire visé, ou encore, si vous l'avez reçu
> par erreur, veuillez le mentionner immédiatement à l'expéditeur et
> supprimer le courriel et les copies.
>
>>
> This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) and may
> contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from
> disclosure under applicable law. Unauthorized disclosure, copying or
> re-transmission is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient or not
> authorized by the named recipient(s), or if you have received this
> e-mail in error, then please notify the sender immediately and delete
> the message and any copies.
>
>
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 8:39AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
"That being said, yes, the lack of standard traditions for keyboard widgets
is trouble for accessibility for both screen reader and keyboard only
users."

There are some useful design patterns that include keyboard interactions in
the ARIA authoring practices:
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/

"For instance, should users always expect to be able to use their arrow keys
to move between tabs in a tablist, an the tab key will only move focus to
the active tab?
I like this pattern if it weren't for the fact that it is not obvious to me
and not consistent across all websites."

Discovery is possibly the biggest challenge. It isn't helped by the fact
that little changed on the web for a long time, so people rarely had to
figure out new forms of interaction. Screen readers don't explain how to use
links for example.

The fact that Jaws explains what the command will do when it encounters
aria-controls is unusual. It's triggered by a relationship, but announcing
only the existence of the relationship wouldn't be helpful to users, so it
explains what will happen when you invoke the key command instead. I'm not
sure the same thing would work, or even be desirable in other contexts?

Things can get even more confusing with tabbed widgets. When a screen reader
announces "tab", is it a name or an instruction?

In terms of general keyboard interaction it's even more complicated, because
there isn't anyway for the screen reader to determine what keyboard handling
has been provided. Even if there were, that would offer no help to sighted
keyboard users in any case.

Léonie.


--
@LeonieWatson Carpe diem

From: David Farough
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 8:53AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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This gets even more complicated if a series of tabs is presented along
with controls to play/pause tab rotation and next and previous buttons.
Where should these controls go so that they are not constantly in the
way when a user may only want to quickly get to a particular tab. Also
it would be nice if rotation of tab content was not turned on by default
when the page is loaded.


David Farough
coordonateur de l'accessibilité
/Application Accessibility Coordinator
Direction des services d'information technologiques /
Information Technology Services Directorate
Commission de la fonction publique /Public Service Commission
Courriel / Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Tél / Tel. (819) 420-8418


>
Ce courriel est destiné exclusivement au destinataire mentionné en titre
et peut contenir de l'information privilégiée, confidentielle ou
soustraite à la communication aux termes des lois applicables. Toute
divulgation non autorisée, toute reproduction ou réacheminement est
interdit. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire de ce courriel, ou n'êtes
pas autorisé par le destinataire visé, ou encore, si vous l'avez reçu
par erreur, veuillez le mentionner immédiatement à l'expéditeur et
supprimer le courriel et les copies.

>
This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) and may
contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from
disclosure under applicable law. Unauthorized disclosure, copying or
re-transmission is prohibited. If you are not a named recipient or not
authorized by the named recipient(s), or if you have received this
e-mail in error, then please notify the sender immediately and delete
the message and any copies.

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 9:13AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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David Farough wrote:
"This gets even more complicated if a series of tabs is presented along with controls to play/pause tab rotation and next and previous buttons.
Where should these controls go so that they are not constantly in the way when a user may only want to quickly get to a particular tab. Also it would be nice if rotation of tab content was not turned on by default when the page is loaded."

This sounds more like a carousel than a conventional tab widget?

Léonie.

--
@LeonieWatson Carpe diem

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 3:13PM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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A large part of the problem is that many developers don't actually follow what the spec has documented for specific ARIA Widgets.
For example, at
http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#tab
It's quite clear that an ARIA Tab construct should have only one tab stop.

So when developers implement only the ARIA attributes, but don't include the requisite scripting behaviors,
Or if they don't also coincide focus movement with the necessary elements that include valid roles,
Or if they only implement some of the ARIA attributes but only partially and omit others that are required for that Widget type,
Then the ARIA Widget won't work reliably on any browser or with any Assistive Technology.

Doing all of these things requires a good understanding of HTML, scripting for event handling and focus movement, knowledge of the
ARIA Roles Model spec documentation, and frequent exposure to Assistive Technologies like the most widely used screen readers and
how they behave when ARIA is implemented. Otherwise it's impossible for developers to know when a quirk is the result of a browser
accessibility API issue, a screen reader support issue, or a bad programming issue caused by the developer. For example, if you
implement an ARIA Tab construct and set each tab to load onFocus as documented, then NVDA users will trigger each tab inadvertently
simply by arrowing down the page in Browse Mode, because NVDA automatically triggers the 'focus' handler when reading content in the
virtual buffer.

Cramming all of this information into one developer's head is difficult and takes a lot of time and commitment, which also explains
why we have so many badly implemented ARIA Widget constructs across the web.

Also, it doesn't help that the W3C ARIA Practices document appears to support diverging from what the Roles Model spec has
documented, which is most plainly noticed when comparing the Accordion guidance with the Tab Panel guidance, which is somewhat
counterproductive. I've already raised an issue about this at
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26254
(Bug 26254 – WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices include contradictory guidance for Accordions)

Regarding the hotkey assignment for aria-controls in ARIA Tabs, I agree that the shortcut guidance in JAWS should not be limited to
Firefox, so I'll file a bug against this with FS.

Also, I think we agree that the Insert+Alt+M hotkey is difficult at best, and that it should not be necessary to reconfigure JAWS
simply to use a Tab control on a web page effectively, since this also effects blind people with dexterity and motor impairments.
I'll file a bug and see if this can be changed to something a bit easier for people to use, whatever that may be.

From: Jennison Mark Asuncion
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 3:45PM
Subject: Re: training sr users for the modern web (wasIntuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF??
← Previous message | Next message →

On 7/4/14, Léonie Watson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Discovery is possibly the biggest challenge. It isn't helped by the fact
> that little changed on the web for a long time, so people rarely had to
> figure out new forms of interaction. Screen readers don't explain how to
> use
> links for example.

Léonie,

Your comment gave me an opportunity to raise an issue that I've been
informally discussing with folk for a while now - while we are all
implementing the best solutions possible to make the modern web
accessible, I am convinced that there exists a training gap for the
average screen reader users (who are not on this list, monitoring
twitter, etc.) when it comes to interacting with web apps and their
associated design patterns.

I would be curious to hear from anyone who conducts screen reader
training to blind end-users about this topic.

Jennison

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Jul 04 2014 7:06PM
Subject: Re: training sr users for the modern web (wasIntuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF??
← Previous message | Next message →

I think this project is something that is absolutely vital to the
increased functionality of the modern web; one which has been somewaht
niglected by a lot of us.
When you work with testing, code and screen reader compatibility all
day, you sometimes forget about the ultimate purpose, which is to
enable end users of all abilities (not just blind/vi users) to
interact with, and use, the web.
Part of that is inevitably to teach end users waht to expect,
especially when it comes to the more advanced widgets used.

Me and my colleague had a very aggressive project lined up a year ago
called Cognosco. Its purpose was to creae interactive online tutorial
on using the web with screen readers and other assistive technologies
using a combination of text, videos and online sample pages.
Unfortunately we work on two continents in two unrelated jobs, and the
funding we had been promised in the spring of 2013 was not delivered
in the fall, so we had to make the painful decision to put that
project on ice.


On 7/4/14, Jennison Mark Asuncion < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On 7/4/14, Léonie Watson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Discovery is possibly the biggest challenge. It isn't helped by the fact
>> that little changed on the web for a long time, so people rarely had to
>> figure out new forms of interaction. Screen readers don't explain how to
>> use
>> links for example.
>
> Léonie,
>
> Your comment gave me an opportunity to raise an issue that I've been
> informally discussing with folk for a while now - while we are all
> implementing the best solutions possible to make the modern web
> accessible, I am convinced that there exists a training gap for the
> average screen reader users (who are not on this list, monitoring
> twitter, etc.) when it comes to interacting with web apps and their
> associated design patterns.
>
> I would be curious to hear from anyone who conducts screen reader
> training to blind end-users about this topic.
>
> Jennison
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jonathan C. Cohn
Date: Sun, Jul 06 2014 4:33PM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF?
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I tried your example on Macintosh Mavericks and the tab controls work as I would consider intuitive. I would have expected that the VoiceOver keystroke control-shift-option-J (goto to popup item) [move the voiceover cursor to the item that poped up from the current item] would have moved me to the tab panel, but it does not.

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 2:19AM
Subject: Re: Intuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut forARIA Tabs in FF?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, I don't have a Mac so I'm not familiar with the command. Can this be used to jump to a landmark region on a page?

Technically, a tabpanel is a dynamic content region, which I wouldn't consider to be a popup. I'm not sure how this is handled on
osX though.

If there is currently no osX command for navigating to a tabpanel referenced by aria-controls, it might be good to ask for one. If
anybody already knows if this exists, please let me know.

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 4:55AM
Subject: Re: training sr users for the modern web (wasIntuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF??
← Previous message | Next message →

What I find interesting about this situation is that typically if you ask someone using a screen reader to interact with a tab panel on a desktop application, they know what to do. But present the same UI on a web page and they seem to have difficulty figuring out how to interact with the tab panel.

I definitely think part of that has to do with the non-existent to terrible keyboard interactions that are implemented on the web. I also agree that some of it has to do with the training. I think most of the time we still tend to present the web and desktop as 2 different things to the user when in reality we keep trying to make them more and more identical in reality.

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Mon, Jul 07 2014 8:56AM
Subject: Re: training sr users for the modern web (wasIntuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF??
← Previous message | Next message →

I believe the problem is introduction of new UI controls like tabs,
menus, slider control etc. that are implemented differently on
different websites / Web apps with varying levels of accessibility or
none at all.
The lack of uniform support for these using different combinations of
browsers and SRs (or assistive technologies in general) does not make
it easier for users.
For instance, tabs can be implemented simply by using HTML, JavaScript
and CSS in which a tab is a link also exposed as a tab.
Eg. http://www.health.govt.nz/yourhealth-topics/diseases-and-illnesses/heart-disease/angina
(Check out Summary, Symptoms, Treatment, etc.). This works and is
usable but strictly, every link is a tabstop ... not just the selected
tab.
And then one can use ARIA to markup tabs too. When done right only the
selected tab is a tabstop and one can arrow across. Here again
sometimes simply arrowing makes the current tab active and sometimes
one has to use the space / enterkey to make it active.
Well one can navigate by headings or images or pull up a list of links
but cannot do so for tabs or menus and the like.
There's no compulsion that tabs and menus should be within a
navigational landmark so their discovery is often a problem.
And when landmarks are used inconsistently or only the navigation and
contentinfo are marked up as landmarks for instance but not the main
or search regions, an SR user cannot simply rely on landmark
navigation to discover and navigate to content.
Regards,
Sailesh


On 7/7/14, Tim Harshbarger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> What I find interesting about this situation is that typically if you ask
> someone using a screen reader to interact with a tab panel on a desktop
> application, they know what to do. But present the same UI on a web page and
> they seem to have difficulty figuring out how to interact with the tab
> panel.
>
> I definitely think part of that has to do with the non-existent to terrible
> keyboard interactions that are implemented on the web. I also agree that
> some of it has to do with the training. I think most of the time we still
> tend to present the web and desktop as 2 different things to the user when
> in reality we keep trying to make them more and more identical in reality.
>
>
>

From: Stanzel, Susan - FSA, Kansas City, MO
Date: Thu, Jul 10 2014 7:28AM
Subject: Re: training sr users for the modern web (wasIntuitiveness of JAWS jump to tabpanel shortcut for ARIA Tabs in FF??
← Previous message | No next message

I follow this list, but I probably don't have as much training for the modern web as I need. I use JAWS 15. Where can I get this necessary training. There was a webinar from JAWS, but it was a long time ago.

Susie Stanzel