E-mail List Archives
Thread: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Jordan Wilson
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 11:02AM
Subject: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
No previous message | Next message →
Normally when we see this topic its the opposite, a writer is trying to
get letters to be read as Roman Numerals instead of letters. VII instead
of Seven.
I'm running into the opposite - Acrobat's Read Out Loud mistakenly reads
my letter as a Roman Numeral
If you put the text: "Medicare Part D" into a PDF and let Acrobat read it
aloud using its built in Read Out Loud feature, the D is pronounced '500'
as if it was the Roman Numeral D.
Its important to note that if you view the same PDF in NVDA or JAWS it is
read correctly as D. So the issue here is (probably) only with Acrobat's
Read Out Loud functionality.
My question is how important is this? Can I assume that users will be
using a viable screenreader? Is there anything I can do about it?
_
Jordan Wilson
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Associate Director, Creative Technology
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 11:32AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
This is exactly why we do not recommend using Read Out Loud in Acrobat or
Reader and have been asking Adobe to remove it from both applications since
it was added. It is a less than bare bones "here is an example of what text
to speech might sound like" and is NOT a substitute for "real" TTS or screen
reading technology.
Never validate using Read Out Loud.
Cheers, Karen
From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 11:32AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Jordan:
I wouldn't worry about it. Neither I nor anyone I know uses Read Out Loud for the very reason that it is *not* a viable screen reader. If someone does happen to read your PDF using Read Out Loud and there is a question, they could navigate character by character to clarify.
Chris
Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 12:28PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
I know Read Out Loud is not a true screen reader, but from my work with
seniors, I've learned that they're a large user group. Social workers,
senior center staff, and others who work with seniors teach them how to turn
on ROL when they hit a PDF on a website or as an attachment.
I've also met folks who have just recently started to lose their sight or
who have strabismus (crossed eyes) who use it because it gets the job done
for them, and it's free.
What we need are better solutions to address these little problems (D
pronounced as a roman numeral).
One that's been discussed before is a tag we creators can add at the
character-level to instruct how to pronounce text (like acronyms and in this
sample "D").
The other is a more "robust" Read Out Loud from Adobe.
I think it was included in Reader and Acrobat because without it, the
software might not have passed the US federal government's requirement that
the software be accessible for AT users. If that's the case, it's just
enough to only pass the requirement, but not worth much as it stands.
Possibly Adobe can be encouraged to beef it up and make it a more useful
tool for those who don't need a full-featured screen reader.
-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www.Pubcom.com/classes
From: Nusbaum, Christopher
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 12:47PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as RomanNumeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Bevi:
I understand what you are saying, but could those users of whom you speak not use NVDA, WindowEyes for Office or even Narrator? If they're using Read Out Loud only when using Acrobat to read PDF's, what are they using in all other situations? It is true that seniors or the newly blind want something simple with a more gradual learning curve, and therefore wouldn't be as interested in a more advanced program like JAWS or VO on the Mac. However, there are free solutions which support more functionality and are more robust than Read Out Loud. I agree with you that our ultimate goal ought to be a more robust and reliable version of ROL from Adobe. Until that day comes, however, I feel we do a disservice to those who are newly blind by not teaching them the better free solutions which exist. All of this, of course, is IMHO only.
Chris
Christopher A. (Chris) Nusbaum, Intern
Technology Services Department
Assistive Technology Program
Carroll County Public Schools
Phone: (410) 751-3428
Cell: (443) 547-2409
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From: Julie Romanowski
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 1:03PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Of course Read Out Loud shouldn't be used as a substitute for screen reader testing. It's a text-to-speech tool, not a screen reader. However, that doesn't mean it can't be a valuable tool. There are people in my organization with various cognitive disabilities who use text-to-speech software to help better understand information presented in documentation. TextAloud is the text-to-speech software we provide to our employees who need this type of accommodation. However, many of them use Read Out Loud when reading PDFs, as it does a better job in identifying text correctly. For example, Read Out Loud will read Roman Numerals as numbers while TextAloud doesn't.
On a side note, I can't replicate the issue Jordan mentioned. I've tested several different ways, and Read Out Loud always reads the D in "Medicare Part D" as "D".
From: Jordan Wilson
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 2:25PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Interesting Julie - I went back and tested on PC after you mentioned it
spoke the D correctly for you.
On my Mac its read as 500, but on the PC it is read as D as you mentioned.
(Both using Read Out Loud) That's better than nothing - at least for the
majority of users its not a problem.
Thanks for the input everyone!
_
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Associate Director, Creative Technology
On 7/17/14 3:03 PM, "Julie Romanowski"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>Of course Read Out Loud shouldn't be used as a substitute for screen
>reader testing. It's a text-to-speech tool, not a screen reader. However,
>that doesn't mean it can't be a valuable tool. There are people in my
>organization with various cognitive disabilities who use text-to-speech
>software to help better understand information presented in
>documentation. TextAloud is the text-to-speech software we provide to our
>employees who need this type of accommodation. However, many of them use
>Read Out Loud when reading PDFs, as it does a better job in identifying
>text correctly. For example, Read Out Loud will read Roman Numerals as
>numbers while TextAloud doesn't.
>
From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 3:07PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
The "symptom" actually goes back to the Text to speech architecture in effect / voice used/ cultural region with which the voice is associated.
On my Mac OS X 10.8.5,
- with the (US English) voice Alex (or Ralph or Agnes) activated, and asking the Mac OS to speak the text "Medicare Part D" it speaks the "D" as "five hundred".
- with the (UK English) voice Emily (or Daniel) the "D" is spoken as "D"
All his does not have anything to do with Adobe
Olaf
On 17 Jul 2014, at 22:25, Jordan Wilson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Interesting Julie - I went back and tested on PC after you mentioned it
> spoke the D correctly for you.
> On my Mac its read as 500, but on the PC it is read as D as you mentioned.
> (Both using Read Out Loud) That's better than nothing - at least for the
> majority of users its not a problem.
>
> Thanks for the input everyone!
> _
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Associate Director, Creative Technology
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/17/14 3:03 PM, "Julie Romanowski"
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Of course Read Out Loud shouldn't be used as a substitute for screen
>> reader testing. It's a text-to-speech tool, not a screen reader. However,
>> that doesn't mean it can't be a valuable tool. There are people in my
>> organization with various cognitive disabilities who use text-to-speech
>> software to help better understand information presented in
>> documentation. TextAloud is the text-to-speech software we provide to our
>> employees who need this type of accommodation. However, many of them use
>> Read Out Loud when reading PDFs, as it does a better job in identifying
>> text correctly. For example, Read Out Loud will read Roman Numerals as
>> numbers while TextAloud doesn't.
>>
>
> > >
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2014 4:19PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter asRomanNumeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Christopher wrote:
" I feel we do a disservice to those who are newly blind by not teaching
them the better free solutions which exist. "
I agree with you!
However, I'm not in charge of the budgets and funding of small local
community groups and publicly-funded programs, which most of these
organizations come under. They run on a shoestring. Their funding from
governments (like the state of Maryland) and major donors (like United Way)
have been cut drastically over the years.
Therefore:
- They do not have IT support of any kind.
- Their equipment is usually donated old, out-of-date systems.
- Social workers et. al are often not familiar with computer technology of
any sort.
The need for accessibility hardware and software is so great, but the
resources are so meager.
Before we can make any progress, we need to educate social workers and care
providers about what is available and then train them to train users.
IMHO, this entire quagmire is a disservice to society. After 30+ years
volunteering for these organizations, I don't have any solid solutions.
-Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www.Pubcom.com/classes
From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Jul 18 2014 5:57AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
I have wondered about that application and others with similar capabilities numerous times. If a blind person has enough on-line skills to get to a website, why would they convert to using " Read Out Loud " once there?
Michelle
From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Fri, Jul 18 2014 11:19AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as Roman Numeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Thinking about "Why would someone use a simple text reader like ROL instead
of a more full-featured screen reader?"
Here's a few scenarios:
- Resting tired eyes even if one can navigate easily, you might want to
sit back and listen to a long-ish text.
- Listening to text when your eyes are busy elsewhere (like driving), for
example, reading a book or article. (Of if you are someone who cannot read
sustained text in moving vehicles.)
- Listening to an article as a way of proofreading it to make sure it makes
sense (instead of reading it out loud to yourself).
- Listening to the text because you don't read well, or are reading in a
second language. This is especially helpful for adult learners.
- You use some other AT to navigate (for example, voice commands or eye
tracking), but have your own reasons for wanting to hear text out loud.
Not everyone needs a full screen reader - simple text to speech is useful
for many.
For me, the biggest question is how can we get to a point where content
designers/developers are not at the mercy of dozens of different programs,
but can count on standards working as meaningful standards.
Isn't accessibility partly about allowing people to interact with content
(etc) in a way that is useful and meaningful for them....not dictating the
technology or interaction style they choose to use?
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 7:57 AM, Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I have wondered about that application and others with similar
> capabilities numerous times. If a blind person has enough on-line skills to
> get to a website, why would they convert to using " Read Out Loud " once
> there?
>
> Michelle
>
>
From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Fri, Jul 18 2014 11:42AM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as RomanNumeral
← Previous message | Next message →
Whitney wrote:
"For me, the biggest question is how can we get to a point where content
designers/developers are not at the mercy of dozens of different programs,
but can count on standards working as meaningful standards. Isn't
accessibility partly about allowing people to interact with content
(etc) in a way that is useful and meaningful for them....not dictating the
technology or interaction style they choose to use?"
Here here!
Standards are what advances technology, systems, and society.
We're trying to get the standards standardized and make people aware of
them, but it's a long process.
The only situations where I've seen standards reach that point is in HTML
and manufacturing standards, which both have great financial benefits to the
corporate world. Example, if you want to sell your manufactured product
around the world, it must meet ISO manufacturing standards.
Maybe if the corporate world understood what they could gain by adopting
accessibility standards we'd be further along in this process.
-Bevi Chagnon
- - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
Taka a Sec. 508 Class in 2014 - www.Pubcom.com/classes
From: Clark, Michelle - NRCS, Washington, DC
Date: Fri, Jul 18 2014 12:35PM
Subject: Re: Acrobat Read Out Loud mistakenly reads letter as RomanNumeral
← Previous message | No next message
I think my comment was misunderstood. My thoughts were related to a blind person, not some who has a manner of sight. For my reasoning, I'm thinking a blind user would have some manner of a screen reader to get to a web page and not have a reason to switch.
Your reasoning is different as you are speaking about reasons for a person who has enough sight to get to it and then opt to turn on a reader of some type based upon choice. We are on two different streets riding in two very different types of vehicles.
However, the point you made about standards is valid.
Michelle