E-mail List Archives

Search E-mail List Archives for

Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Weissenberger, Todd M
Date: Mon, Jan 05 2015 9:41AM
Subject: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
No previous message | Next message →

A constituent on campus wonders about resources for using Adobe InDesign to create source files that can be exported to accessible PDF. She has done some self-study at tv.adobe.com, but feels that the process described there is too cumbersome and time-consuming.

Has anyone encountered any InDesign resources that can help the casual document designer better understand and implement accessibility?

Thanks,
Todd

T.M. Weissenberger
IT Accessibility Specialist
University of Iowa
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
319-384-3323

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Jan 05 2015 9:49AM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

The whitepaper for InDesign CS6 (http://www.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/products/indesign/pdfs/creating-accessible-pdf-documentw-with-adobe-indesign-cs6-v3.pdf) is a useful resource.

It is hard to offer specific suggestions to overcome the concerns that the process is too cumbersome and time-consuming. I find that authors of any tool starting to look at supporting accessibility in their work find that it is somewhat disruptive to their tried and true processes, and InDesign authors are no exception. I'd love to hear what aspects of the process your colleague finds most problematic. It may be that there is a better way, or it may be that we can provide new information to the InDesign team to help them improve the product. Feel free to put the person in contact with me.

Thanks,
AWK

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Jan 05 2015 1:13PM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Todd,

searching for
indesign pdf/ua
on Youtube.com will get you a couple of useful resources - some of them recordings from workshops and presentations I did in the last two years. Some of them discuss InDesign as such (the concepts and most details are identical for InDesign CS 5.5 through InDesign CC 2014), some introduce MadeToTag, a plug-in for Adobe InDesign (developed by my company axaio software, cf. www.axaio.com) that increases productivity, helps reduce the error rate, and fixes some issues that are tough to fix without specific software (even for pro's). As you will be able to guess I might be biased here, but all in all I think it is fair to claim that the videos will help get you going and understand how accessible PDF can be created efficiently from InDesign, and should save a lot of time whether one uses InDesign with MadeToTag or just plain Indesign.

Olaf



On 5 Jan 2015, at 17:41, "Weissenberger, Todd M" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> A constituent on campus wonders about resources for using Adobe InDesign to create source files that can be exported to accessible PDF. She has done some self-study at tv.adobe.com, but feels that the process described there is too cumbersome and time-consuming.
>
> Has anyone encountered any InDesign resources that can help the casual document designer better understand and implement accessibility?
>
> Thanks,
> Todd
>
> T.M. Weissenberger
> IT Accessibility Specialist
> University of Iowa
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 319-384-3323
> > >

From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Mon, Jan 05 2015 1:30PM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

+1 to Olaf's comment. Some people's workflow with InDesign supports accessibility with the tools available in the product directly, and some people like the support that is possible through a tool like MadeToTag. The reason that InDesign has an architecture that allows for extensions is to support this sort of thing.

However, neither the built-in tools for InDesign nor the MadeToTag tool will remove the need for an author to identify a correct reading order, identify headings and other structures, provide alternative text, etc., as I'm sure everyone on this list is aware.

AWK

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Mon, Jan 05 2015 1:56PM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Andrew,

while I have your attention on this… ;-)

There are a couple of unfortunate 'limitations' (or in various cases one would have to say 'bugs') in the way InDesign writes tagged PDF (or lets users prepare documents for the export of accessible tagged PDF). Hardly anything has happened to address these since the (extremely useful!) Article panel and related features had been introduced in Adobe InDesign CS 5.5.

For example handling of anchored text frames or anchored groups of frames is a nightmare. Some tags are not supported at all (for example for table of contents - TOC/TOCI - etc.; or for captions, whether in general / next to images, or inside tables). In some cases important aspects of tagging are not supported (e.g. for tables: no support for row headers, or for non-trivial tables). Some strange bugs when writing bullet characters in lists. No possibility to set the document language. And so forth.

Also, despite all the extensibility in InDesign (whether by traditional plug-ins or via the otherwise very powerful JavaScript in InDesign) there is zero opportunity for a plug-in (or JavaScript) to influence how tagged PDF is written (in other words: the PDF export as such is not extensible). All the magic that MadeToTag does (fixing handling of anchored frames, fixing bullets in lists, cleaning up behind InDesign etc. in order to let users create a PDF/UA conforming accessible tagged PDF, get advanced table handling, and much more) is done by post-processing the PDF coming out of InDesign's tagged PDF export. I also have the impression nobody at Adobe cares anymore about making any progress in the field of tagged PDF export from InDesign (and don't get me wrong: I'd love to be proven wrong here!!!).

There are numerous features in MadeToTag that add valuable features on its own [and for which I'd say it is OK if users have to get a plug-in as opposed to finding this functionality built into InDesign], like tag highlighting, language highlighting, structured preview, custom shortcut set for speed tagging, speed editing of alternate text for images, and so forth. Nevertheless over time the axaio team has spent spent substantially more time and work on fixing InDesign than on implementing actual functionality. And we have most probably spent [much] more money on this than it would have cost Adobe to fix the problems.


Or would you disagree with my description of the state of affairs regarding creation of accessible tagged PDF using InDesign?



> […] identify a correct reading order, identify headings and other structures, provide alternative text, etc., [...]

Those serious about creating tagged PDF (especially when going beyond trivial documents) will find it much easier to master this (these are the basics one has to address in any rich content creation / editing environment), than to cope with InDesign introduced limitations and problems.


Olaf




On 5 Jan 2015, at 21:30, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> +1 to Olaf's comment. Some people's workflow with InDesign supports accessibility with the tools available in the product directly, and some people like the support that is possible through a tool like MadeToTag. The reason that InDesign has an architecture that allows for extensions is to support this sort of thing.
>
> However, neither the built-in tools for InDesign nor the MadeToTag tool will remove the need for an author to identify a correct reading order, identify headings and other structures, provide alternative text, etc., as I'm sure everyone on this list is aware.
>
> AWK
>
>

From: Wyant, Jay (MNIT)
Date: Tue, Jan 06 2015 1:09PM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Olaf,

Thanks for the pointer to the YouTube videos. Unfortunately all the examples I came across used automated captions. I don't know whether that's on you or the PDF Association, but in any case, I'd appreciate it if these wonderful learning opportunities were more accessible.

Thanks

Jay
JAY WYANT |  CHIEF INFORMATION ACCESSIBILITY OFFICER
MN.IT SERVICES, CENTRAL
651.201.1001 (w) | 612.825.8285 (m) | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Information Technology for Minnesota Government | mn.gov/oet
Learn: http://mn.gov/mnit/programs/accessibility/

From: Weissenberger, Todd M
Date: Wed, Jan 07 2015 7:53PM
Subject: Re: Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility
← Previous message | No next message

Thanks all for the insight and lively discussion. I'll review the videos and other resources, and see if we can't find a good workflow for our constituent. Cheers!

Todd

(University of Iowa)

From: Wyant, Jay (MNIT) [ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 2:09 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Adobe InDesign/PDF Accessibility

Olaf,

Thanks for the pointer to the YouTube videos. Unfortunately all the examples I came across used automated captions. I don't know whether that's on you or the PDF Association, but in any case, I'd appreciate it if these wonderful learning opportunities were more accessible.

Thanks

Jay
JAY WYANT | CHIEF INFORMATION ACCESSIBILITY OFFICER
MN.IT SERVICES, CENTRAL
651.201.1001 (w) | 612.825.8285 (m) | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Information Technology for Minnesota Government | mn.gov/oet
Learn: http://mn.gov/mnit/programs/accessibility/