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From: Trafford, Logan
Date: Mon, Mar 02 2015 10:22AM
Subject: Bylaws
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Can anyone point me in the direction where I might find an online (PDF) version of a complex bylaw, that has tagged successfully?

thanks

Logan Trafford


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From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Mon, Mar 09 2015 10:30AM
Subject: Re: Bylaws
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Logan, when you say "complex bylaw," do you mean something like this?
http://www.tceq.texas.gov/publications/rg/rg-195.html/at_download/file

I have not checked its tagging; I just want to be sure we mean the same thing before I look any further.

Thanks!

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Mar 2, 2015, at 11:22 AM, Trafford, Logan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Can anyone point me in the direction where I might find an online (PDF) version of a complex bylaw, that has tagged successfully?
>
> thanks
>
> Logan Trafford
>
>
> This e-mail originates from the City of Ottawa e-mail system. Any distribution, use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. Thank you.
>
> Le présent courriel a été expédié par le système de courriels de la Ville d'Ottawa. Toute distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel ou des renseignements qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son destinataire prévu est interdite. Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.
> > >

From: Trafford, Logan
Date: Mon, Mar 09 2015 10:36AM
Subject: Re: Bylaws
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Yes Cliff, more or less anyway.

This is a decent example. Essentially anything that has a structure where the limitations of 6 heading levels might not cut it. I find legal documents (by-laws) challenging as they do not always follow a logical structure, from either a heading structure, or multi-level list structure, even though they should!

Logan

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Mon, Mar 09 2015 10:51PM
Subject: Re: Bylaws
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That document is published as a more readably formatted version of the official rule. You might notice that the indentations are much smaller than those in comparable documents. We felt it was important to have a meaningful amount of text on each of the shorter lines. To compensate for the wide body, we added more than single-spaced leading between the lines—although well short of the double or triple spacing sometimes used.

I haven't looked at this PDF in a long while except on my mobile phone, but if I recall correctly:
—It was formatted with heading styles down to the subchapter level, which is one level below the title of the document.
—Beyond that, we formatted the content as numbered lists.
—Because it was easy to get lost in the original format, we used the full outline numbering on each item.
—All cross references were hyperlinked.
—All tables were tagged.

At least that much was done in the source document, which was created with an MS Word template. I hope it was carried over into the PDF.

This PDF could be made much more accessible, but to do so would take a great deal of tagging by hand, at least so far as I know. This work would include:
—Selecting the text of each run-in head and identifying it as a heading. (In MS Word, I don't know that they could be anything more than the Strong first few words of a list item. I recently discovered that in PDF it's possible to tag just those words as a heading when it would make sense to do so in the document structure. In this particular document, I might go no deeper than the Section level with that approach.)
—Creating a definitions list in the Definitions subchapter (where the numbering scheme always skips an outline level).
—Adding a list of steps with hyperlinks for branching to supplement the flowchart that appears as a figure at the end. (This would not require tagging by hand, but it would have required a new round of rule development and review.)

Anyway, a Word template can deal with most of the issues involved in this sort of document, with the added advantage that switching from one style set to another can return the document to its original high-falutin' and utterly unusable format whenever necessary. :-)

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Mar 9, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Trafford, Logan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Yes Cliff, more or less anyway.
>
> This is a decent example. Essentially anything that has a structure where the limitations of 6 heading levels might not cut it. I find legal documents (by-laws) challenging as they do not always follow a logical structure, from either a heading structure, or multi-level list structure, even though they should!
>
> Logan
>
>

From: Jon Metz
Date: Tue, Mar 10 2015 10:23PM
Subject: Re: Bylaws
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Hi Logan,

Not sure what sort of tagging you are aiming for, but this might be helpful
for you: In PDF/UA, you are not confined to a set number of headings, as
long as they follow what is considered a logical sequence. You start at H1
and move toward Hn (where n is the eventual heading number). Headings can
repeat themselves, but they need to be in order (like H1,H2, H2, H3, H2,
H3, H4, etc. NOT H1, H3).

Theoretically you could use an H tag and forgo the use of numbers
altogether. But this is very hard to implement because you'd need to nest
all the tags. Also, very few AT actually reads PDFs this way for a number
of reasons. However, don't mix H alone with Numbered Headings, since that
breaks the standard and I don't anything would work correctly at that point.

Note that I've never had to use anything beyond 6 headings, but your
results may vary.

Hope this helps.

Jon

On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 12:51 AM, Cliff Tyllick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> That document is published as a more readably formatted version of the
> official rule. You might notice that the indentations are much smaller than
> those in comparable documents. We felt it was important to have a
> meaningful amount of text on each of the shorter lines. To compensate for
> the wide body, we added more than single-spaced leading between the
> lines—although well short of the double or triple spacing sometimes used.
>
> I haven't looked at this PDF in a long while except on my mobile phone,
> but if I recall correctly:
> —It was formatted with heading styles down to the subchapter level, which
> is one level below the title of the document.
> —Beyond that, we formatted the content as numbered lists.
> —Because it was easy to get lost in the original format, we used the full
> outline numbering on each item.
> —All cross references were hyperlinked.
> —All tables were tagged.
>
> At least that much was done in the source document, which was created with
> an MS Word template. I hope it was carried over into the PDF.
>
> This PDF could be made much more accessible, but to do so would take a
> great deal of tagging by hand, at least so far as I know. This work would
> include:
> —Selecting the text of each run-in head and identifying it as a heading.
> (In MS Word, I don't know that they could be anything more than the Strong
> first few words of a list item. I recently discovered that in PDF it's
> possible to tag just those words as a heading when it would make sense to
> do so in the document structure. In this particular document, I might go no
> deeper than the Section level with that approach.)
> —Creating a definitions list in the Definitions subchapter (where the
> numbering scheme always skips an outline level).
> —Adding a list of steps with hyperlinks for branching to supplement the
> flowchart that appears as a figure at the end. (This would not require
> tagging by hand, but it would have required a new round of rule development
> and review.)
>
> Anyway, a Word template can deal with most of the issues involved in this
> sort of document, with the added advantage that switching from one style
> set to another can return the document to its original high-falutin' and
> utterly unusable format whenever necessary. :-)
>
> Cliff Tyllick
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its
> fault.
>
> > On Mar 9, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Trafford, Logan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > Yes Cliff, more or less anyway.
> >
> > This is a decent example. Essentially anything that has a structure
> where the limitations of 6 heading levels might not cut it. I find legal
> documents (by-laws) challenging as they do not always follow a logical
> structure, from either a heading structure, or multi-level list structure,
> even though they should!
> >
> > Logan
> >
> >

From: Trafford, Logan
Date: Wed, Mar 11 2015 8:14AM
Subject: Re: Bylaws
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Thanks Jon...

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Thu, Mar 12 2015 9:00AM
Subject: Re: Bylaws
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Jon, I hadn't realized that was part of PDF/UA.

Speaking as one who has dealt with the kinds of documents Logan is dealing with, I can tell you that more than 6 levels of headings are never needed but often used. ;-)

It's one of those situations where all we can do is code it as it is, not reconceive the document to make it better.

Thanks for pointing out that detail of the spec. Now we can deal with this unfortunate reality. :-)

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Mar 11, 2015, at 9:14 AM, Trafford, Logan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Thanks Jon...
>
>