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Number of posts in this thread: 23 (In chronological order)

From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Sun, May 08 2016 7:36AM
Subject: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
No previous message | Next message →

Greetings, WebAIM (and those who are bcc-ed):


With usual apologies for duplication.


Thanks, publicly, to those on this list who were involved in preparing
the item cited below my name. Well done!

Best,

Jennifer


Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
https://medium.com/@LeonieWatson/danger-testing-accessibility-with-real-people-4515f72db648#.q25em4o4f

From: Jennison Mark Asuncion
Date: Tue, May 10 2016 12:27AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Birkir, Bryan, Lèonie, and Matt for stepping forward and
writing this post, which I encourage everyone to read.

Jennison



On 5/8/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Greetings, WebAIM (and those who are bcc-ed):
>
>
> With usual apologies for duplication.
>
>
> Thanks, publicly, to those on this list who were involved in preparing
> the item cited below my name. Well done!
>
> Best,
>
> Jennifer
>
>
> Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
> https://medium.com/@LeonieWatson/danger-testing-accessibility-with-real-people-4515f72db648#.q25em4o4f
>
> > > > >

From: Thad C
Date: Tue, May 10 2016 9:26PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes a big +1 to the authors!

Thad
On May 9, 2016 11:27 PM, "Jennison Mark Asuncion" <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thanks Birkir, Bryan, Lèonie, and Matt for stepping forward and
> writing this post, which I encourage everyone to read.
>
> Jennison
>
>
>
> On 5/8/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Greetings, WebAIM (and those who are bcc-ed):
> >
> >
> > With usual apologies for duplication.
> >
> >
> > Thanks, publicly, to those on this list who were involved in preparing
> > the item cited below my name. Well done!
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Jennifer
> >
> >
> > Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
> >
> https://medium.com/@LeonieWatson/danger-testing-accessibility-with-real-people-4515f72db648#.q25em4o4f
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Wed, May 11 2016 9:37AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
I never understood what a tab was on a web page until now! It is basically
a link, but coded differently. The t character is also read as "tab", so I
always thought that a tab had a "t" before it.
On desktop applications, I never use other tabs unless I can't help it, for
example in places like EdSharp. Then I have many ways to move between them.
ctrl+tab to cycle through them and on EdSharp, f4 to see a list of open
tabs. Has any keystroke been designated to move between tabs on a single
page (It would be preferred if ctrl+tab did this)?
Thank you,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Thad C < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Yes a big +1 to the authors!
>
> Thad
> On May 9, 2016 11:27 PM, "Jennison Mark Asuncion" <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Thanks Birkir, Bryan, Lèonie, and Matt for stepping forward and
> > writing this post, which I encourage everyone to read.
> >
> > Jennison
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/8/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > Greetings, WebAIM (and those who are bcc-ed):
> > >
> > >
> > > With usual apologies for duplication.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, publicly, to those on this list who were involved in preparing
> > > the item cited below my name. Well done!
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Jennifer
> > >
> > >
> > > Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
> > >
> >
> https://medium.com/@LeonieWatson/danger-testing-accessibility-with-real-people-4515f72db648#.q25em4o4f
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Wed, May 11 2016 9:46AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
Part of the issue has to do with browsers intercepting keystrokes such as control+tab to switch between browser panes, and if this is hijacked by scripting then it won't be possible to do so. In many ways we have to juggle keyboard interactions for native browser keystrokes versus assistive technology keystrokes versus programmed webpage keystrokes via scripting, and often this always causes conflicts with somebody. Also there is the issue of discoverability, so unfortunately it gets sort of complicated.

As a point of note, we just finished the second half of our joint article, which has been published at "From HTML to ARIA Tabs, A Travelog | HackPoets" http://wp.me/p6Dp11-1X

All the best,
Bryan



Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: Tel Woolsey
Date: Wed, May 11 2016 12:35PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium (Thad C)
← Previous message | Next message →

On May 11, 2016, at 11:00 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

Send WebAIM-Forum mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of WebAIM-Forum digest..."
Today's Topics:

1. Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
(Thad C)
2. Re: Accessibilty consultant salary (Joe Chidzik)
3. Re: Accessibilty consultant salary (Mike Barlow)
4. Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
(Brandon Keith Biggs)
5. Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
(Bryan Garaventa)
6. CKEditor opinions (Bourne, Sarah (ITD))
7. Proper Markup on Web Pages (Brandon Keith Biggs)
8. Re: Proper Markup on Web Pages (Teresa Haven)
9. Accessible Speech Rate? (Thorson, Marc)

From: Thad C < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
Date: May 10, 2016 at 8:26:03 PM PDT
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >


Yes a big +1 to the authors!

Thad
On May 9, 2016 11:27 PM, "Jennison Mark Asuncion" <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

Thanks Birkir, Bryan, Lèonie, and Matt for stepping forward and
writing this post, which I encourage everyone to read.

Jennison



On 5/8/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Greetings, WebAIM (and those who are bcc-ed):


With usual apologies for duplication.


Thanks, publicly, to those on this list who were involved in preparing
the item cited below my name. Well done!

Best,

Jennifer


Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium

https://medium.com/@LeonieWatson/danger-testing-accessibility-with-real-people-4515f72db648#.q25em4o4f

From: Joe Chidzik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessibilty consultant salary
Date: May 11, 2016 at 3:01:20 AM PDT
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >


The W3C have just such a resource for developing a business case for accessibility. Whilst this covers the legal aspects (the stick), they also cover the socialeconomic benefits (the carrots) of accessibility as well.

https://www.w3.org/WAI/bcase/Overview.html

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Wed, May 11 2016 11:37PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
I think if you bind keypress and keydown and stopPropogation you can grab
ctrl+tab. I got in trouble because I did that and could not alt+f4 out of
the window (although alt+space worked).
But I believe Jaws put in a key stroke to move between the tabs? that is
probably the best option.

Now I am wondering if there is any kind of tab widget for standard HTML? If
not, why? It would be very awesome if sighted users could use the same kind
of scripting as we do.
It would also allow blind users to recognize what is going on for sighted
users. Currently there is this strange divide between sighted and blind
developers where it is difficult for one to develop appealing GUIs for the
other.
For example, when I am making web apps or sites, I have to have a sighted
person next to me telling me if my placement of text and or images works.
It is nice when I am in a word document that setting headings and bolding
text is both visible to me and to my sighted colleagues. But in just about
every other circumstance, what is optimal for sighted users is difficult
for me and what is optimal for me is difficult for sighted users.

For example, I developed a survey and I wrote it like this:
1. Favorite food?
A. pizza
B. Spaghetti
C. cabbage
D. bread and cheese

My sighted colleagues took it and did something like:
1. Favorite food?
A. Pizza C. Cabbage
B. Spaghetti D. Bread and Cheese

Which is not half as easy or clear to read for me. So how does one deal
with stuff like this in a way that would be best for boath parties?
One could use tables or CSS. But neither of those were obvious to us.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:46 AM, Bryan Garaventa <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi,
> Part of the issue has to do with browsers intercepting keystrokes such as
> control+tab to switch between browser panes, and if this is hijacked by
> scripting then it won't be possible to do so. In many ways we have to
> juggle keyboard interactions for native browser keystrokes versus assistive
> technology keystrokes versus programmed webpage keystrokes via scripting,
> and often this always causes conflicts with somebody. Also there is the
> issue of discoverability, so unfortunately it gets sort of complicated.
>
> As a point of note, we just finished the second half of our joint article,
> which has been published at "From HTML to ARIA Tabs, A Travelog |
> HackPoets" http://wp.me/p6Dp11-1X
>
> All the best,
> Bryan
>
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
>

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sat, May 14 2016 6:41AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi everyone,

I've been looking into this, and before I comment I was wondering if I'm
getting the correct results from NVDA?

On the test page for ARIA tabs here:
http://a11yideas.com/testcode/tabs/tabs_with_ARIA.html

Arrowing through, when you get to the tabs they are announced, but all read
out in one go, you can't move between them. The tab panel is not announced,
and there is no way of selecting a tab without manually going into forms
mode.

Tabbing through, selecting a tab with the arrow keys does work, but then
you have to manually exit forms mode.

It is really filddly compared to Jaws/VoiceOver, it just doesn't seem right.

I'm using Windows 10 (in VMWare), NVDA (latest) with Firefox (latest) or
IE11.

What do others get?

Cheers,

-Alastair

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Sat, May 14 2016 1:24PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

I've noticed the same thing in the latest NVDA releases, they seem to have backtracked in Tabs interaction support. Would anybody like to file a bug? I won't be able to personally until sometime next week.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sat, May 14 2016 6:14PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bryan,

I'm afraid I spent too much time writing an article, I won't get a chance
until next week.

The article was a follow up to yours (and Leonie's et al) and the original
"Danger" one:
https://alastairc.ac/2016/05/aria-tabs-ui-problems-and-standards/

Whilst I generally agree with your conclusions, I think there is some
nuance, and tabs are unique among the ARIA widgets in how people expect
them to work.

A couple of years ago I observed some testing with people and came to
fairly similar conclusions to Jeff Smith's article. Whilst I wouldn't drop
the ARIA markup, the interaction (in a web context) doesn't seem quite
right yet.

Kind regards,

-Alastair

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sat, May 14 2016 6:55PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
With NVDA, go into nvda menu / preferences / brows mode / uncheck "use
screen layout (when supported)".
Then everything should work just fine.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Bryan Garaventa <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I've noticed the same thing in the latest NVDA releases, they seem to have
> backtracked in Tabs interaction support. Would anybody like to file a bug?
> I won't be able to personally until sometime next week.
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
>

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 4:40AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

HI Brandon,

Thanks for that. Good to know but I don't think that should be necessary,
so I've added a bug about it here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5950

(Managed to get the kids down for a nap so got some time!)

Cheers,

-Alastair

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 6:04AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

> From: WebAIM-Forum on Behalf Of Alastair Campbell
> Sent: 14 May 2016 13:41
> On the test page for ARIA tabs here:
> http://a11yideas.com/testcode/tabs/tabs_with_ARIA.html
>
> Arrowing through, when you get to the tabs they are announced, but all read
> out in one go, you can't move between them. The tab panel is not
> announced, and there is no way of selecting a tab without manually going
> into forms mode.

I think this is expected. When in browse mode (the equivalent of the Jaws virtual mode), NVDA treats the tablist as a single entity - and so announces the contents of the tablist as such. You need to switch into focus mode (the equivalent of the Jaws forms/applications mode) to interact with the objects within the tablist.

You can invoke focus mode in two ways: tab onto the tablist, or hit enter whilst focus is on it. Similarly you can exit it in two different ways: by tabbing off the tablist, or by hitting escape.

>
> Tabbing through, selecting a tab with the arrow keys does work, but then
> you have to manually exit forms mode.
>

Yes. The easiest interaction with NVDA is to tab onto the tablist, select a tab using the arrow keys, hit escape to exit focus mode, then resume using the arrow keys to navigate into the tabpanel content.

> It is really filddly compared to Jaws/VoiceOver, it just doesn't seem right.
The interaction is more or less the same as with Jaws. There are two slight differences:

1. By default, Jaws does not treat the tablist as a single entity when in virtual (browse) mode. The smart navigation feature introduced in Jaws 17 (configurable during the Jaws startup wizard) does result in the same behaviour as NVDA though.

2. NVDA does not support aria-controls


>
> I'm using Windows 10 (in VMWare), NVDA (latest) with Firefox (latest) or
> IE11.
>
> What do others get?
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 6:35AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

>
> You can invoke focus mode in two ways: tab onto the tablist, or hit enter
> whilst focus is on it. Similarly you can exit it in two different ways: by
> tabbing off the tablist, or by hitting escape.
>

Hitting enter whilst they are in focus doesn't work for me, you have to
manually go into forms mode.
If they are in focus and you hit tab, you go to the button after the tab
panel. Confusing.


The easiest interaction with NVDA is to tab onto the tablist, select a tab
> using the arrow keys, hit escape to exit focus mode, then resume using the
> arrow keys to navigate into the tabpanel content.
>

In which case, with the exception of knowing that there is a tab panel
(assuming you know what that means), what is the advantage of ARIA tabs for
NVDA users?

Sorry, that sounds like a rhetorical question, but I usually reach for
VoiceOver if I need to test with a screen reader so I'm genuinely trying to
understand!

-Alastair

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 11:07AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
If you arrow using ctrl+right until you hear the tab you would like and hit
enter, it will switch to that tab.
But change screen layout to not show and everything will be on one line.
The same problem happens if there are two links on one line or across the
top of the page (like on m.facebook.com).
The issue is that NVDA reads screen layout by default and it should not be
default.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 5:35 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> >
> > You can invoke focus mode in two ways: tab onto the tablist, or hit enter
> > whilst focus is on it. Similarly you can exit it in two different ways:
> by
> > tabbing off the tablist, or by hitting escape.
> >
>
> Hitting enter whilst they are in focus doesn't work for me, you have to
> manually go into forms mode.
> If they are in focus and you hit tab, you go to the button after the tab
> panel. Confusing.
>
>
> The easiest interaction with NVDA is to tab onto the tablist, select a tab
> > using the arrow keys, hit escape to exit focus mode, then resume using
> the
> > arrow keys to navigate into the tabpanel content.
> >
>
> In which case, with the exception of knowing that there is a tab panel
> (assuming you know what that means), what is the advantage of ARIA tabs for
> NVDA users?
>
> Sorry, that sounds like a rhetorical question, but I usually reach for
> VoiceOver if I need to test with a screen reader so I'm genuinely trying to
> understand!
>
> -Alastair
> > > > >

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 4:24PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi, the bug I was referring to with NVDA isn't actually that they appear on one line when Screen Layout mode is enabled, but rather that you can't intuitively enter Applications Mode by pressing enter on a Tab.

Here is an example that shows why this is important:
http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Menus/Variation%20ARIA%20Tabs%20With%20Right%20Click/demo.htm

The value of the ARIA Tabs implementation in this case is that this also allows for the attachment of ARIA Menus, all of which works accessibly when programmed properly with the correct focus movement and ARIA roles. So it is when dual functionality is involved that the value of ARIA becomes more apparent. For example if the Delete key can be used to remove a tab, or actions like the one above that allows for Shift+F10 or the Applications key to open a menu when focus is on a tab.

When using JAWS on the above page, you simply press Enter on the tab to activate Applications Mode, use the arrow keys to move focus between them, press Shift+F10 to open the attached menu, use the arrow keys to navigate the menu, press Escape or Tab to close the menu and set focus back to the previously focused tab. Verified using the latest JAWS17 in IE11 and in Firefox.

On iOS in contrast, you can tap outside of the menu on any static text to close the menu.

NVDA should enter Applications Mode when you press Enter on a tab to allow for the same functionality, because an ARIA Tab (element with role=tab) is an interactive widget, just like a form field. If this is non-intuitive to accomplish using NVDA, then this is an NVDA bug.

This type of dual functionality is often seen within enterprise web applications, and it is important to be able to make it accessible without having to convert everything to links and hidden offscreen text to simulate the same functionality.

Please feel free to examine the code for this widget if you want to see how it works, which is in the download at
https://github.com/accdc/tsg
Which can be found in the folder
"Coding ArenaARIA MenusVariation ARIA Tabs With Right Click"

Kind regards,
Bryan


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 8:01PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
What is going on is an introduction to a new element (tab).
The word "tab" is a horrible word because it means so many things. It means
a key, a t character, a sub window within a window, things you put on
papers to keep them sorted and the top of a soda can!
Has there been any testing with other names? Some ideas I have are:
page tab
tablink
linktab
linked tab
subpage
subpage link
...

NVDA will read "tab" when it sees a t character, so that is what my first
thoughts are when I hear these links.
thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Sat, May 14, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Bryan,
>
> I'm afraid I spent too much time writing an article, I won't get a chance
> until next week.
>
> The article was a follow up to yours (and Leonie's et al) and the original
> "Danger" one:
> https://alastairc.ac/2016/05/aria-tabs-ui-problems-and-standards/
>
> Whilst I generally agree with your conclusions, I think there is some
> nuance, and tabs are unique among the ARIA widgets in how people expect
> them to work.
>
> A couple of years ago I observed some testing with people and came to
> fairly similar conclusions to Jeff Smith's article. Whilst I wouldn't drop
> the ARIA markup, the interaction (in a web context) doesn't seem quite
> right yet.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> -Alastair
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sun, May 15 2016 8:12PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
If you press on the button, NVDA enters forms mode.
If you press enter on the tab, it selects the tab.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Bryan Garaventa <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi, the bug I was referring to with NVDA isn't actually that they appear
> on one line when Screen Layout mode is enabled, but rather that you can't
> intuitively enter Applications Mode by pressing enter on a Tab.
>
> Here is an example that shows why this is important:
>
> http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Menus/Variation%20ARIA%20Tabs%20With%20Right%20Click/demo.htm
>
> The value of the ARIA Tabs implementation in this case is that this also
> allows for the attachment of ARIA Menus, all of which works accessibly when
> programmed properly with the correct focus movement and ARIA roles. So it
> is when dual functionality is involved that the value of ARIA becomes more
> apparent. For example if the Delete key can be used to remove a tab, or
> actions like the one above that allows for Shift+F10 or the Applications
> key to open a menu when focus is on a tab.
>
> When using JAWS on the above page, you simply press Enter on the tab to
> activate Applications Mode, use the arrow keys to move focus between them,
> press Shift+F10 to open the attached menu, use the arrow keys to navigate
> the menu, press Escape or Tab to close the menu and set focus back to the
> previously focused tab. Verified using the latest JAWS17 in IE11 and in
> Firefox.
>
> On iOS in contrast, you can tap outside of the menu on any static text to
> close the menu.
>
> NVDA should enter Applications Mode when you press Enter on a tab to allow
> for the same functionality, because an ARIA Tab (element with role=tab) is
> an interactive widget, just like a form field. If this is non-intuitive to
> accomplish using NVDA, then this is an NVDA bug.
>
> This type of dual functionality is often seen within enterprise web
> applications, and it is important to be able to make it accessible without
> having to convert everything to links and hidden offscreen text to simulate
> the same functionality.
>
> Please feel free to examine the code for this widget if you want to see
> how it works, which is in the download at
> https://github.com/accdc/tsg
> Which can be found in the folder
> "Coding ArenaARIA MenusVariation ARIA Tabs With Right Click"
>
> Kind regards,
> Bryan
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
>
>

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Mon, May 16 2016 3:26AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bryan,

I opened a bug here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5950

But it got closed, perhaps you'll have better luck explaining it? I've
pointed to your email above.

Cheers,

-Alastair

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Mon, May 16 2016 10:31AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
← Previous message | Next message →

I replied to the bug, hopefully that clarifies the problem.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: Bryan Garaventa
Date: Mon, May 16 2016 1:33PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
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The word "tab" actually has been around for many years to indicate this type of functionality, and this is what ARIA Tabs map to in the accessibility API. So it's not just a name, but an actual role mapping in the accessibility tree.

E.G
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb760550(v=vs.85).aspx

" A tab control is analogous to the dividers in a notebook or the labels in a file cabinet. By using a tab control, an application can define multiple pages
for the same area of a window or dialog box. Each page consists of a certain type of information or a group of controls that the application displays when
the user selects the corresponding tab."

The same type of mapping occurs in OS X, iOS, and other operating systems.

You can read how this works at
https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/03/web-accessibility-with-accessibility-api/

Also, for a complete training of how ARIA works from beginning to end, you can read
http://whatsock.com/training/

And to physically observe ARIA usage within any web technology, you can use Visual ARIA, available at
http://whatsock.com/training/matrices/visual-aria.htm


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Tue, May 17 2016 2:20AM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
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Bryan Garaventa wrote:

> The word "tab" actually has been around for many years to indicate this
> type of functionality, and this is what ARIA Tabs map to in the
> accessibility API. So it's not just a name, but an actual role mapping in
> the accessibility tree.
>

Everything you wrote is true, but from a developer point of view.

From a user point of view tab is a character, a key, and a widget, and if
you land on ARIA-tabs for the first time (or the 10th time if you never
worked out what it is), it will be a foreign concept.

I have a feeling it's too late to re-name tabs, but what would a good hint
be? (Something that the website, or perhaps the user-agent could add.)
Something generic enough to make sense across screenreaders (i.e. not exact
keys).

Assuming the initial announcement for a non-selected tab is as it is now:"
tabname, tab, 2 of 3", could we use aria-describedby to add "select to
change the controlled content"?

Even "controlled content" (the Jaws hint) is not a great term, but I can't
think of a better one at the moment. Using the term "link" would not be
right as the focus isn't moved when you use it, and page/sub-page are also
vague.

Cheers,

-Alastair

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, May 17 2016 1:42PM
Subject: Re: Danger! Testing Accessibility with real people — Medium
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Hello,
Subtab or pagetab.
Thanks,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:20 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>
> > The word "tab" actually has been around for many years to indicate this
> > type of functionality, and this is what ARIA Tabs map to in the
> > accessibility API. So it's not just a name, but an actual role mapping in
> > the accessibility tree.
> >
>
> Everything you wrote is true, but from a developer point of view.
>
> From a user point of view tab is a character, a key, and a widget, and if
> you land on ARIA-tabs for the first time (or the 10th time if you never
> worked out what it is), it will be a foreign concept.
>
> I have a feeling it's too late to re-name tabs, but what would a good hint
> be? (Something that the website, or perhaps the user-agent could add.)
> Something generic enough to make sense across screenreaders (i.e. not exact
> keys).
>
> Assuming the initial announcement for a non-selected tab is as it is now:"
> tabname, tab, 2 of 3", could we use aria-describedby to add "select to
> change the controlled content"?
>
> Even "controlled content" (the Jaws hint) is not a great term, but I can't
> think of a better one at the moment. Using the term "link" would not be
> right as the focus isn't moved when you use it, and page/sub-page are also
> vague.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
> > > > >