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Thread: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Vemaarapu Venkatesh
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 12:09AM
Subject: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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Hello all, Greetings
While testing with jaws I observed there are changes in announcements of
elements on the web page e.g form label of text field when we are toggling
between virtual pc cursor on and off states. Whether these can be reported
as bugs and is it necessary to test an web app in forms mode? Can anyone
provide the exact use of forms mode and when we have to apply that.
Thank you.
Regards,
venkatesh
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 2:10AM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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On 08/07/2016 07:09, Vemaarapu Venkatesh wrote:
> While testing with jaws I observed there are changes in announcements of
> elements on the web page e.g form label of text field when we are toggling
> between virtual pc cursor on and off states. Whether these can be reported
> as bugs and is it necessary to test an web app in forms mode? Can anyone
> provide the exact use of forms mode and when we have to apply that
Can you point to an example or provide an example of the code? From your
description, one possible cause may be that the labels are not properly
associated with their form fields. Without an example it's impossible to
be certain though.
In the meantime, this article explains the different screen reader
interaction modes:
http://tink.uk/understanding-screen-reader-interaction-modes/
Léonie.
--
@LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem
From: Vemaarapu Venkatesh
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 5:06AM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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Hi Watson,
Thank you for the valuable reference about the screen reader interaction
modes.
https://www.aa.com/international/internationalSplashAccess.do?countryCodeForIP=IN
As I am core user of NVDA, I never faced an issue like what I described.
Now consider the above link and I have used the combination IE11/JAWS 17 to
navigate through the page. What I found is, when virtual pc cursor is "on"
jaws is announcing only the selected list item in the "select your country
of residence" combobox. But when it is "off", observe jaws starts
announcing all the list items present in combobox followed by selected item
as soon as we focus to combobox. I have seen this type of behaviour in many
cases.
If we take the same scenario with NVDA, the result is same in both normal
and forms mode. NVda starts announcing all the list items in the combobox.
My question is whether I can raise bug about what happened in JAWS when
virtual pc cursor is "off" in the scenario. If That is the case, we have to
test application in both the modes. Also I have a doubt where we can take
the full advantage of forms mode.
Thank you.
Regards,
venkatesh.
On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Vemaarapu Venkatesh <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Watson,
> Thank you for the valuable reference about the screen reader interaction
> modes.
>
>
> https://www.aa.com/international/internationalSplashAccess.do?countryCodeForIP=IN
>
> As I am core user of NVDA, I never faced an issue like what I described.
> Now consider the above link and I have used the combination IE11/JAWS 17 to
> navigate through the page. What I found is, when virtual pc cursor is "on"
> jaws is announcing only the selected list item in the "select your country
> of residence" combobox. But when it is "off", observe jaws starts
> announcing all the list items present in combobox followed by selected item
> as soon as we focus to combobox. I have seen this type of behaviour in many
> cases.
>
> If we take the same scenario with NVDA, the result is same in both normal
> and forms mode. NVda starts announcing all the list items in the combobox.
>
> My question is whether I can raise bug about what happened in JAWS when
> virtual pc cursor is "off" in the scenario. If That is the case, we have to
> test application in both the modes. Also I have a doubt where we can take
> the full advantage of forms mode.
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> venkatesh.
>
From: Megginson, Jason
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 9:13AM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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Venkatesh,
I wouldn't rush to call this a JAWS issue. First look into whether there is a syntax or IE-specific issue. I used the MSAA Object Inspector in IE on your URL you provided. I see that the accessible name of the combo box contains the options as part of the label as you have observed. JAWS and NVDA are rendering the label exactly as the IE browser is exposing it.
Have you tried moving the closing the </label> element around the on-screen label text rather than closing the </label> after the options in the source code. Be interesting to see if you get better results.
Jason Megginson
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 10:23AM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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On 08/07/2016 12:06, Vemaarapu Venkatesh wrote:
> https://www.aa.com/international/internationalSplashAccess.do?countryCodeForIP=IN
> Now consider the above link and I have used the combination IE11/JAWS 17 to
> navigate through the page. What I found is, when virtual pc cursor is "on"
> jaws is announcing only the selected list item in the "select your country
> of residence" combobox. But when it is "off", observe jaws starts
> announcing all the list items present in combobox followed by selected item
> as soon as we focus to combobox. I have seen this type of behaviour in many
> cases.
The code for the country of residence combobox is correct. The <label>
element has a for attribute that matches the id attribute on the
<select> element.
The only way I can reproduce the problem you describe, is when I turn
the Virtual Cursor (VC) on/off manually (using Jaws key + z). Is this
the way you are doing it?
Léonie.
--
@LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem
From: Megginson, Jason
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 10:53AM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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I took his snippet of code (the entire label and all child elements) and recreated it locally. I moved the closing </label> tag in the HTML source at the end of the on-screen label text. As a result, the screen reader then excludes all of the combo box options within the accessible name as you would expect; the MSAA Object Inspector as well.
Léonie is correct. The page is explicitly associating the label to the select element via the for attribute. This is good. What I'm suggesting to alleviate this from happening for users with the IE 11 browser is to move the closing label tag per the terse code example below (note my example also suggests a method to denote the inline language change because it bothers me that it isn't there):
<label for="selectCountry">Select your country of residence | <span lang="es">Seleccione su paÃs de residencia</span></label>
. . . <select id="selectCountry">. . .</select>. . .
Again, I wouldn't call this a JAWS issue nor a parsing/validation violation of WCAG 2.0 4.1.1.
I personally chalk this up as an IE issue but would suggest to developers to simply reposition the closing label tag to avoid this altogether.
Jason
From: Vemaarapu Venkatesh
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 12:32PM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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Thank you to Jason and Watson for the exciting stuff.
you are right Watson, I am doing it manually using JAWS key+Z.
At the end of the day what I want to know is,
As I am encountered with these type of issues (especially IE/JAWS) across
many apps, how I should proceed with my testing. Whether I have to carry
testing in both normal and forms mode or we should consider only default
i.e. normal mode.
And the other one is "When we should use the forms mode and what is the use
of it".
Hope my two concerns are clear.
Regards,
venkatesh
On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Vemaarapu Venkatesh <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Watson,
> Thank you for the valuable reference about the screen reader interaction
> modes.
>
>
> https://www.aa.com/international/internationalSplashAccess.do?countryCodeForIP=IN
>
> As I am core user of NVDA, I never faced an issue like what I described.
> Now consider the above link and I have used the combination IE11/JAWS 17 to
> navigate through the page. What I found is, when virtual pc cursor is "on"
> jaws is announcing only the selected list item in the "select your country
> of residence" combobox. But when it is "off", observe jaws starts
> announcing all the list items present in combobox followed by selected item
> as soon as we focus to combobox. I have seen this type of behaviour in many
> cases.
>
> If we take the same scenario with NVDA, the result is same in both normal
> and forms mode. NVda starts announcing all the list items in the combobox.
>
> My question is whether I can raise bug about what happened in JAWS when
> virtual pc cursor is "off" in the scenario. If That is the case, we have to
> test application in both the modes. Also I have a doubt where we can take
> the full advantage of forms mode.
> Thank you.
>
> Regards,
> venkatesh.
>
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 08 2016 3:12PM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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On 08/07/2016 19:32, Vemaarapu Venkatesh wrote:
> Thank you to Jason and Watson for the exciting stuff.
My first name is Léonie, but you are most welcome :)
> you are right... I am doing it manually using JAWS key+Z.
This is not the way Jaws users usually do things. Jaws will
automatically switch into forms mode when it is needed - you do not need
to use Jaws key + z to do it manually.
Jaws key + z turns the virtual cursor on/off, but that is not quite the
same as turning forms mode on/off.
>
> At the end of the day what I want to know is,
> As I am encountered with these type of issues (especially IE/JAWS) across
> many apps, how I should proceed with my testing. Whether I have to carry
> testing in both normal and forms mode or we should consider only default
> i.e. normal mode.
You should test using both modes, but you should not treat them as
completely separate things.
When you test most content, Jaws will be in virtual mode. This means you
can use the arrow keys or the letter shortcut keys (like h for headings)
to navigate through the content.
When you test a form, Jaws will switch between virtual and forms mode
automatically. If you use the arrow keys or the tab key to move focus to
a form field, you will hear a sound that indicates Jaws has switched
into forms mode.
If you move focus off the field using the arrow keys, Jaws will
automatically switch back to virtual mode and you will hear the same
sound again. If you use the tab key to move focus away from the field,
Jaws will stay in forms mode if focus moves directly to another form
field. If focus moves to something that isn't a form field, Jaws will
switch back to virtual mode (and you will hear the same sound again).
> And the other one is "When we should use the forms mode and what is
the use
> of it".
Forms mode is used when you need to use the letter and punctuation keys
for typing content. When you are in virtual mode, the letter and
punctuation keys are used for navigating through the content instead.
You should let Jaws decide when these modes are needed though.
Léonie.
--
@LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem.
From: Vemaarapu Venkatesh
Date: Sat, Jul 09 2016 1:07AM
Subject: Re: Clarification on forms mode of screen readers
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> My first name is Léonie, but you are most welcome :)
> Jaws key + z turns the virtual cursor on/off, but that is not quite the
>same as turning forms mode on/off.
>You should test using both modes, but you should not treat them as
>completely separate things.
>When you test most content, Jaws will be in virtual mode. This means you
>can use the arrow keys or the letter shortcut keys (like h for headings)
>to navigate through the content.
>When you test a form, Jaws will switch between virtual and forms mode
>automatically. If you use the arrow keys or the tab key to move focus to
>a form field, you will hear a sound that indicates Jaws has switched
>into forms mode.
>If you move focus off the field using the arrow keys, Jaws will
>automatically switch back to virtual mode and you will hear the same
>sound again. If you use the tab key to move focus away from the field,
>Jaws will stay in forms mode if focus moves directly to another form
>field. If focus moves to something that isn't a form field, Jaws will
>switch back to virtual mode (and you will hear the same sound again).
>Forms mode is used when you need to use the letter and punctuation keys
>for typing content. When you are in virtual mode, the letter and
>punctuation keys are used for navigating through the content instead.
>You should let Jaws decide when these modes are needed though.
Haha! I will always find "Watson" as more elegant whenever I come across
that name. That's fine Léonie.
The information is quite pretty and elaborative. Now I have to go ahead and
should observe it practically to get the complete overview.
Thank you and have a good time.
Regards,
venkatesh