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Thread: drop down menus
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: NutHouse Studios
Date: Wed, Jul 30 2003 9:26PM
Subject: drop down menus
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I was wondering if it's possible to make drop down menus for navigation that
are accessible? For an example of what I'd like to do, see:
http://www.wcc.cc.il.us/ and view the top menu that includes Prospective
Students, Current Students, etc. I know that they're not using ALT tags,
but I was just wondering if the use of drop down menus is possible.
Thanks for your time - max c.
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Jul 30 2003 11:42PM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, NutHouse Studios wrote:
> I was wondering if it's possible to make drop down menus for navigation that
> are accessible?
Depends on what you mean by accessibility, but the practical answer is
"no, and there's no need to". Dropdown menus for navigation are a bad idea
and cause serious usability problems. There's little need to consider
accessibility issues when we know that it's a wrong approach anyway.
Besides, designers who use drop down navigation menus on their pages
will hardly take the considerable extra work needed to remove some of
their accessibility problems.
For a detailed discussion of the drawbacks of navigational drop down
menus, as well as an advice on fixing some of the worst problem if you
have been forced to use them, please check
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/navmenu.html
> For an example of what I'd like to do, see:
> http://www.wcc.cc.il.us/
Bad usability and lack of accessibility everywhere.
> I know that they're not using ALT tags,
Symptomatic, isn't it? But adding ALT attributes (sic) would be like
painting a collapsed building.
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Suzanne Ankerbrand
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 6:56AM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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Hi,
I have the same question concerning rollover menus. A new client is
insisting they want them. This is a large non-profit so they should
be concerned with accessibility. We informed them that rollvers are
not accessible and that many of them don't work with all browsers ...
they're still insisting. Their point is, if the top link in the
rollover menu links to the second level page where all the other
links that were in the rollover are listed anyway, they've met the
accessibility issue. The rollover will give those who can view it a
short cut ... if not, they just jump to the second level page. Any
feedback about that?
Thanks,
Suzanne
>On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, NutHouse Studios wrote:
>
>> I was wondering if it's possible to make drop down menus for navigation that
>> are accessible?
>
>Depends on what you mean by accessibility, but the practical answer is
>"no, and there's no need to". Dropdown menus for navigation are a bad idea
>and cause serious usability problems. There's little need to consider
>accessibility issues when we know that it's a wrong approach anyway.
>Besides, designers who use drop down navigation menus on their pages
>will hardly take the considerable extra work needed to remove some of
>their accessibility problems.
>
>For a detailed discussion of the drawbacks of navigational drop down
>menus, as well as an advice on fixing some of the worst problem if you
>have been forced to use them, please check
>http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/navmenu.html
>
>> For an example of what I'd like to do, see:
> > http://www.wcc.cc.il.us/
>
>Bad usability and lack of accessibility everywhere.
>
>> I know that they're not using ALT tags,
>
>Symptomatic, isn't it? But adding ALT attributes (sic) would be like
>painting a collapsed building.
>
>--
>Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
>
>
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From: Alesia Strawn
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 7:42AM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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>I have the same question concerning rollover menus. A new client is
>insisting they want them. This is a large non-profit so they should be
>concerned with accessibility. We informed them that rollvers are not
>accessible and that many of them don't work with all browsers ...
I agree.
>Their point is, if the top link in the rollover menu links to the second
>level page where all the other links that were in the rollover are listed
>anyway, they've met the accessibility issue.
I also *generally* agree; however, in addition to accessibility matters,
there are maintenance questions. Is it anticipated that the links in the
menus would change with any frequency? If the person who currently works
on the site changed, would maintenance of the menus continue to be
possible? Would the site still work okay if the menus were removed for
whatever reason? Is compromise possible, with menus on the home page, and
not on second level pages if all the information is still available? Is
there a site map? How is the site maintained, templates or includes for
common page elements, for example? Is the rest of the page, or site, U.S.
Section 508 and/or generally standard HTML compliant?
Another thing about menus is that they may add a lot of text to the source
file, therefore increasing the file size and download time (especially if
used in combination with a lot of graphics).
Every site, audience, purpose, etc., is different. Just throwing out an
incomplete list of things to consider.
Alesia
>>On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, NutHouse Studios wrote:
>>
>>>I was wondering if it's possible to make drop down menus for navigation that
>>>are accessible?
>>
>>Depends on what you mean by accessibility, but the practical answer is
>>"no, and there's no need to". Dropdown menus for navigation are a bad idea
>>and cause serious usability problems. There's little need to consider
>>accessibility issues when we know that it's a wrong approach anyway.
>>Besides, designers who use drop down navigation menus on their pages
>>will hardly take the considerable extra work needed to remove some of
>>their accessibility problems.
>>
>>For a detailed discussion of the drawbacks of navigational drop down
>>menus, as well as an advice on fixing some of the worst problem if you
>>have been forced to use them, please check
>>http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/navmenu.html
>>
>>>For an example of what I'd like to do, see:
>> > http://www.wcc.cc.il.us/
>>
>>Bad usability and lack of accessibility everywhere.
>>
>>>I know that they're not using ALT tags,
>>
>>Symptomatic, isn't it? But adding ALT attributes (sic) would be like
>>painting a collapsed building.
>>
>>--
>>Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
>>
>>
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>>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 7:43AM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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On Thu, 31 Jul 2003, Suzanne Ankerbrand wrote:
> I have the same question concerning rollover menus. A new client is
> insisting they want them. This is a large non-profit so they should
> be concerned with accessibility.
Usability would be the most important point here. They probably aim at
usability, but they miss the goal. You might have hard time explaining
that to them. They just love their hammer, so they refuse to see anything
but nails. That is, they have a fixed mental model of how users should
behave and what they should like, and they try to meet the need that they
have assumed - basically, a need to navigate directly to third-level pages
from any page. (I know it sounds tempting, but it's really a mess to use.)
> Their point is, if the top link in the
> rollover menu links to the second level page where all the other
> links that were in the rollover are listed anyway, they've met the
> accessibility issue. The rollover will give those who can view it a
> short cut ... if not, they just jump to the second level page.
They're right, in a technical sense, and this might be the only sense they
have now. You could still try and explain that when the intended scheme
_works_, it will cause problems to people with cognitive disabilities
(too many options, too difficult conceptually, etc.). And things like
that. But the real objection is usability; this is explained in quite some
detail in my "Links Want To Be Links",
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/links.html
but the famous Jakob Nielsen is probably an author you should cite here,
though I can't right now point at any particular articles by him on the
issue of two-level navigatoon - his message though is clearly "less
is more", see
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20000109.html
--
Jukka "Yucca" Korpela, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 7:48AM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
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There's a discussion of drop down menus in the "Web Course",
http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm/#webcourse10.d with the NSF.gov site
as an example.
Jim
508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
"Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 8:49AM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
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Whoops, I goofed on the URL - which I thought I tried before sending,
http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm#Webcourse10.d.
Jim
508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
"Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 11:56AM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
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The referenced tutorial says that pull down menus are a "relatively minor
convenience for sighted (mouse) users". If I have a visual impairment and
have user styling enabled on the web browser these pull down menus are a
major problem. If I change font size these menus fall apart in terms of
reflow and obscure content. If I change colors the menu text becomes
transparent to the background text and this results in a spaghetti of over
lapping text, which is totally unreadable.
I characterize these problems as major accessibility problems. Just try
some of these websites yourself with user styling of text enabled on the
browser.
Jon
At 08:44 AM 7/31/2003 -0500, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>There's a discussion of drop down menus in the "Web Course",
>http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm/#webcourse10.d with the NSF.gov site
>as an example.
>
>Jim
>508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
>"Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
>
>
From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 12:34PM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
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I thought the question concerned the use of JavaScript to display a sub-menu
when moving the mouse over a main menu item or link - whether these could be
accessible.
The tutorial (http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm#Webcourse10.d) tried to
answer that by saying that if all the links of the "sub-menu" are easily
available on the page opened by the main menu item link, then yes - the
advantage of someone using the JavaScript sub-menus is nominal.
I didn't intend to be commenting about fonts or colors or anything else,
just whether or not the drop-down menus could be accessible. I think Yes,
essentially by ignoring the sub-menus.
Jim
508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
"Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 1:33PM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
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A person with a visual impairment cannot ignore the sub menus if they
happen to move the mouse over the sub menu hot spot on the page.
Jon
At 01:29 PM 7/31/2003 -0500, Jim Thatcher wrote:
>I thought the question concerned the use of JavaScript to display a sub-menu
>when moving the mouse over a main menu item or link - whether these could be
>accessible.
>
>The tutorial (http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm#Webcourse10.d) tried to
>answer that by saying that if all the links of the "sub-menu" are easily
>available on the page opened by the main menu item link, then yes - the
>advantage of someone using the JavaScript sub-menus is nominal.
>
>I didn't intend to be commenting about fonts or colors or anything else,
>just whether or not the drop-down menus could be accessible. I think Yes,
>essentially by ignoring the sub-menus.
>
>Jim
>508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
>"Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
>
>
From: John Britsios
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 1:42PM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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Hi!
I would also like to express my experience about this topic!
Some sites using drop-down menu, would reload the page if the for example
line (-----------) is selected, which can disorientate or confuse the user.
Another issue is if the user is navigating with a keyboard, he type's the
first letter, he is brought to the first word in the list that begin's with
that letter. When there are more items with the same first letter, then the
user has a problem. If he type's a second letter in the word he seek's, he
goes to the first word that begin's with that letter.
That is why I say, selection lists are much more accessuble and usable!
Is it just my point of view?
Kind regards,
John S. Britsios,
Web Accessibility and Usability Consultant
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Thatcher" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
> Whoops, I goofed on the URL - which I thought I tried before sending,
> http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm#Webcourse10.d.
>
> Jim
> 508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
> "Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
>
>
From: John Britsios
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 1:46PM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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Hi!
To JavaScript:
I avoid as far as possible JavaScript, to avoid running risks on
complications on the end users machines, or while goverment and other
employees are required to disable this feature, for security or other
reasons. Also there is a number of users who are very concerned about
security issues and disable this feature too.
Is that not also accessibility?
John Britsios
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Thatcher" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: drop down menus
> I thought the question concerned the use of JavaScript to display a
sub-menu
> when moving the mouse over a main menu item or link - whether these could
be
> accessible.
>
> The tutorial (http://jimthatcher.com/webcoursea.htm#Webcourse10.d) tried
to
> answer that by saying that if all the links of the "sub-menu" are easily
> available on the page opened by the main menu item link, then yes - the
> advantage of someone using the JavaScript sub-menus is nominal.
>
> I didn't intend to be commenting about fonts or colors or anything else,
> just whether or not the drop-down menus could be accessible. I think Yes,
> essentially by ignoring the sub-menus.
>
> Jim
> 508 Web Accessibility Tutorial http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.
> "Constructing Accessible Web Sites:" http://jimthatcher.com/news.htm
>
>
From: Kynn Bartlett
Date: Fri, Aug 01 2003 7:03PM
Subject: Re: drop down menus
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On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 10:38 PM, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> For a detailed discussion of the drawbacks of navigational drop down
> menus, as well as an advice on fixing some of the worst problem if you
> have been forced to use them, please check
> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/navmenu.html
Good discussion (as always), Jukka. I also ranted about this topic
on my Maccessibility blog a while ago:
http://www.maccessibility.com/archive/000592.php
My take on it is that, sure, you can make it accessible to your
visually impaired users (which is what, by and large, most people
STILL seem to mean by "is it accessible?"), but you may also be
negatively affecting the usability of your site by even thinking
about these types of menus.
Not everyone seems to agree with me on this -- in fact, I'm in a
minority (what else is new? at least Jukka and Jakob are here with
me), but I still say I'm right. :)
If you use drop down menus, use them with caution, and for heaven's
sake, do sufficient user testing to make sure that they actually
help you do what you to do.
--Kynn
--
Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > http://kynn.com
Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain http://idyllmtn.com
Shock & Awe Blog http://shock-awe.info
Author, CSS in 24 Hours http://cssin24hours.com
Inland Anti-Empire Blog http://inlandantiempire.org
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