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Thread: The W3C Markup Validator

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From: Geoff Deering
Date: Fri, Oct 06 2017 3:54PM
Subject: The W3C Markup Validator
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,

I've been out of the Web Accessibility domain for around 15 years... age
and disability. I use to contribute to the W3C Guidelines in this area, so
I had a reasonable handle on this.

I was in the process of writing an article on Web Standards and Compassion
and Wisdom for an online magazine.... which I feel passionate about... but
I've been stopped in my tracks by The W3C Markup Validator (
https://validator.w3.org/)

If anyone can please explain to me what is going on with the W3C Validator
I'd appreciate it.

I thought that all the DTDs would be backward compatible. It doesn't seem
so. Even the code on this example no longer validates...

https://www.w3.org/wiki/Validating_your_HTML#How_to_validate_your_pages

Actually, I've gone through so many web sites that are from people who know
these standards, and I can't find any that are not showing errors. These
people know these standards well and how to apply them.

So what is happening with the W3C Validator?

The only instances I see of no errors and just warnings are where the
doctype is declared in the HTML5 declaration <!DOCTYPE html>.

I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5.... how
do etc work in HTML5?

But back to the W3C validator, what is going on with it... is it now only
validating HTML5? That's the way it appears to me.

----------------
Geoff Deering

From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, Oct 06 2017 4:21PM
Subject: Re: The W3C Markup Validator
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Geoff,

The short answer is, yes, without you adjusting the validator, it is
validating against HTML 5 (Question, which validator are you using? I might
suggest you check out https://validator.w3.org/nu/ if you haven't already.)

One thing about HTML 5 (and onwards) is that there is no longer a concept
of versioned "DocType" (as browsers pretty much ignored them anyway), which
is why in HTML 5 all you need to write is <!DOCTYPE html> and you're good
to go.

While I've lost track of all of the ins-and-outs of what is happening
currently with HTML 5
(I'm currently neck-deep in WCAG 2.1 work)
, I do recall a W3C discussion to effectively obsolete all previous
versions of HTML (this is unconfirmed, and there is some discussion over
whether they want to say deprecated, obsoleted, or superseded but the net
effect would be the same: discourage use of older versions of HTML 5 as
strongly as possible).

> I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5.... how
do etc work in HTML5?

Yikes! An answer to that question would warrant a book
by itself (I'll happily recommend the first HTML 5 book published, by
Bruce Lawson and Remi Sharp:
https://www.amazon.com/Introducing-HTML5-Voices-That-Matter/dp/0321784421)

But specific to the question about , the spec says this:

The strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
element represents <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#represents> strong
importance, seriousness, or urgency for its contents.

*Importance*: The strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
element
can be used in a heading, caption, or paragraph to distinguish the part
that really matters from other parts of the that might be more detailed,
more jovial, or merely boilerplate.

For example, the first word of the previous paragraph is marked up with
strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> to
distinguish it from the more detailed text in the rest of the paragraph.

*Seriousness*: The strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
element
can be used to mark up a warning or caution notice.

*Urgency*: The strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
element
can be used to denote contents that the user needs to see sooner than other
parts of the document.

The relative level of importance of a piece of content is given by its
number of ancestor strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
elements;
each strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
element
increases the importance of its contents.
Changing the importance of a piece of text with the strong
<https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
element
does not change the meaning of the sentence.
(https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element)

That's the *semantic* meaning of in HTML5: as to how it "works"
is really dependant on how the user-agent chooses to express the semantics.
In browsers today the default visual representation still is a bolding of
the text.

HTH

JF

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Geoff Deering < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've been out of the Web Accessibility domain for around 15 years... age
> and disability. I use to contribute to the W3C Guidelines in this area, so
> I had a reasonable handle on this.
>
> I was in the process of writing an article on Web Standards and Compassion
> and Wisdom for an online magazine.... which I feel passionate about... but
> I've been stopped in my tracks by The W3C Markup Validator (
> https://validator.w3.org/)
>
> If anyone can please explain to me what is going on with the W3C Validator
> I'd appreciate it.
>
> I thought that all the DTDs would be backward compatible. It doesn't seem
> so. Even the code on this example no longer validates...
>
> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Validating_your_HTML#How_to_validate_your_pages
>
> Actually, I've gone through so many web sites that are from people who know
> these standards, and I can't find any that are not showing errors. These
> people know these standards well and how to apply them.
>
> So what is happening with the W3C Validator?
>
> The only instances I see of no errors and just warnings are where the
> doctype is declared in the HTML5 declaration <!DOCTYPE html>.
>
> I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5.... how
> do etc work in HTML5?
>
> But back to the W3C validator, what is going on with it... is it now only
> validating HTML5? That's the way it appears to me.
>
> ----------------
> Geoff Deering
> > > > >

--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: John Foliot
Date: Fri, Oct 06 2017 4:22PM
Subject: Re: The W3C Markup Validator
← Previous message | Next message →

Sorry, that should have read: "...discourage use of older versions of HTML
as strongly as possible..."

JF

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:21 PM, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Geoff,
>
> The short answer is, yes, without you adjusting the validator, it is
> validating against HTML 5 (Question, which validator are you using? I might
> suggest you check out https://validator.w3.org/nu/ if you haven't
> already.)
>
> One thing about HTML 5 (and onwards) is that there is no longer a concept
> of versioned "DocType" (as browsers pretty much ignored them anyway), which
> is why in HTML 5 all you need to write is <!DOCTYPE html> and you're good
> to go.
>
> While I've lost track of all of the ins-and-outs of what is happening
> currently with HTML 5
> (I'm currently neck-deep in WCAG 2.1 work)
> , I do recall a W3C discussion to effectively obsolete all previous
> versions of HTML (this is unconfirmed, and there is some discussion over
> whether they want to say deprecated, obsoleted, or superseded but the net
> effect would be the same: discourage use of older versions of HTML 5 as
> strongly as possible).
>
> > I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5....
> how do etc work in HTML5?
>
> Yikes! An answer to that question would warrant a book
> by itself (I'll happily recommend the first HTML 5 book published, by
> Bruce Lawson and Remi Sharp: https://www.amazon.com/
> Introducing-HTML5-Voices-That-Matter/dp/0321784421)
>
> But specific to the question about , the spec says this:
>
> The strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
> element represents <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#represents> strong
> importance, seriousness, or urgency for its contents.
>
> *Importance*: The strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
> can be used in a heading, caption, or paragraph to distinguish the part
> that really matters from other parts of the that might be more detailed,
> more jovial, or merely boilerplate.
>
> For example, the first word of the previous paragraph is marked up with
> strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> to
> distinguish it from the more detailed text in the rest of the paragraph.
>
> *Seriousness*: The strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
> can be used to mark up a warning or caution notice.
>
> *Urgency*: The strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
> can be used to denote contents that the user needs to see sooner than other
> parts of the document.
>
> The relative level of importance of a piece of content is given by its
> number of ancestor strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> elements;
> each strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
> increases the importance of its contents.
> Changing the importance of a piece of text with the strong
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
> element does not change the meaning of the sentence.
> (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element)
>
> That's the *semantic* meaning of in HTML5: as to how it "works"
> is really dependant on how the user-agent chooses to express the semantics.
> In browsers today the default visual representation still is a bolding of
> the text.
>
>
> HTH
>
> JF
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Geoff Deering < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I've been out of the Web Accessibility domain for around 15 years... age
>> and disability. I use to contribute to the W3C Guidelines in this area,
>> so
>> I had a reasonable handle on this.
>>
>> I was in the process of writing an article on Web Standards and Compassion
>> and Wisdom for an online magazine.... which I feel passionate about... but
>> I've been stopped in my tracks by The W3C Markup Validator (
>> https://validator.w3.org/)
>>
>> If anyone can please explain to me what is going on with the W3C Validator
>> I'd appreciate it.
>>
>> I thought that all the DTDs would be backward compatible. It doesn't seem
>> so. Even the code on this example no longer validates...
>>
>> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Validating_your_HTML#How_to_validate_your_pages
>>
>> Actually, I've gone through so many web sites that are from people who
>> know
>> these standards, and I can't find any that are not showing errors. These
>> people know these standards well and how to apply them.
>>
>> So what is happening with the W3C Validator?
>>
>> The only instances I see of no errors and just warnings are where the
>> doctype is declared in the HTML5 declaration <!DOCTYPE html>.
>>
>> I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5.... how
>> do etc work in HTML5?
>>
>> But back to the W3C validator, what is going on with it... is it now only
>> validating HTML5? That's the way it appears to me.
>>
>> ----------------
>> Geoff Deering
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>

--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: Geoff Deering
Date: Fri, Oct 06 2017 4:50PM
Subject: Re: The W3C Markup Validator
← Previous message | Next message →

That really does help Sandy...

I remember back in the day, I'd validate my pages,,, then to find out a
year or so later, they had some errors and warnings,, so the validator was
always improving.

So it's great to see someone using an old DTD and the current validator
validates it.

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

>
> > > The only instances I see of no errors and just warnings are where >
> the doctype is declared in the HTML5 declaration <!DOCTYPE html>. > hey
> Geoff,
>
> You got me curious. There's a site I built a long, long time ago. The
> doctype is HTML 4.01 Transitional. I checked out a few pages and they still
> validate.
>
> http://www.asklenore.info/
>
> I hope this helps you think this through, but it probably just muddies the
> waters.
>
> --
> Sandy
>
> sandyfeldman.com
> sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
> ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
> inclusivemedia.ca
>
>

From: Geoff Deering
Date: Fri, Oct 06 2017 4:54PM
Subject: Re: The W3C Markup Validator
← Previous message | No next message

John Foliot,

This is immensely helpful.

Even though I have a lot less cognitive ability/energy you have given me
enough info and references to start looking in this area. Thanks

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 9:22 AM, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Sorry, that should have read: "...discourage use of older versions of
> HTML as strongly as possible..."
>
> JF
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:21 PM, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hi Geoff,
>>
>> The short answer is, yes, without you adjusting the validator, it is
>> validating against HTML 5 (Question, which validator are you using? I might
>> suggest you check out https://validator.w3.org/nu/ if you haven't
>> already.)
>>
>> One thing about HTML 5 (and onwards) is that there is no longer a concept
>> of versioned "DocType" (as browsers pretty much ignored them anyway), which
>> is why in HTML 5 all you need to write is <!DOCTYPE html> and you're good
>> to go.
>>
>> While I've lost track of all of the ins-and-outs of what is happening
>> currently with HTML 5
>> (I'm currently neck-deep in WCAG 2.1 work)
>> , I do recall a W3C discussion to effectively obsolete all previous
>> versions of HTML (this is unconfirmed, and there is some discussion over
>> whether they want to say deprecated, obsoleted, or superseded but the net
>> effect would be the same: discourage use of older versions of HTML 5 as
>> strongly as possible).
>>
>> > I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5....
>> how do etc work in HTML5?
>>
>> Yikes! An answer to that question would warrant a book
>> by itself (I'll happily recommend the first HTML 5 book published, by
>> Bruce Lawson and Remi Sharp: https://www.amazon.com/Introdu
>> cing-HTML5-Voices-That-Matter/dp/0321784421)
>>
>> But specific to the question about , the spec says this:
>>
>> The strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
>> element represents <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#represents> strong
>> importance, seriousness, or urgency for its contents.
>>
>> *Importance*: The strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
>> can be used in a heading, caption, or paragraph to distinguish the part
>> that really matters from other parts of the that might be more detailed,
>> more jovial, or merely boilerplate.
>>
>> For example, the first word of the previous paragraph is marked up with
>> strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> to
>> distinguish it from the more detailed text in the rest of the paragraph.
>>
>> *Seriousness*: The strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
>> can be used to mark up a warning or caution notice.
>>
>> *Urgency*: The strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
>> can be used to denote contents that the user needs to see sooner than other
>> parts of the document.
>>
>> The relative level of importance of a piece of content is given by its
>> number of ancestor strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> elements;
>> each strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element> element
>> increases the importance of its contents.
>> Changing the importance of a piece of text with the strong
>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element>
>> element does not change the meaning of the sentence.
>> (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-strong-element
>> )
>>
>> That's the *semantic* meaning of in HTML5: as to how it "works"
>> is really dependant on how the user-agent chooses to express the semantics.
>> In browsers today the default visual representation still is a bolding of
>> the text.
>>
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> JF
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Geoff Deering < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I've been out of the Web Accessibility domain for around 15 years... age
>>> and disability. I use to contribute to the W3C Guidelines in this area,
>>> so
>>> I had a reasonable handle on this.
>>>
>>> I was in the process of writing an article on Web Standards and
>>> Compassion
>>> and Wisdom for an online magazine.... which I feel passionate about...
>>> but
>>> I've been stopped in my tracks by The W3C Markup Validator (
>>> https://validator.w3.org/)
>>>
>>> If anyone can please explain to me what is going on with the W3C
>>> Validator
>>> I'd appreciate it.
>>>
>>> I thought that all the DTDs would be backward compatible. It doesn't
>>> seem
>>> so. Even the code on this example no longer validates...
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Validating_your_HTML#How_to_validate_your_pages
>>>
>>> Actually, I've gone through so many web sites that are from people who
>>> know
>>> these standards, and I can't find any that are not showing errors. These
>>> people know these standards well and how to apply them.
>>>
>>> So what is happening with the W3C Validator?
>>>
>>> The only instances I see of no errors and just warnings are where the
>>> doctype is declared in the HTML5 declaration <!DOCTYPE html>.
>>>
>>> I've also got little idea how to apply semantic richness to HTML5.... how
>>> do etc work in HTML5?
>>>
>>> But back to the W3C validator, what is going on with it... is it now only
>>> validating HTML5? That's the way it appears to me.
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>> Geoff Deering
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Foliot
>> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>> Deque Systems Inc.
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>>
>
>
>
> --
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>