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From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 5:58AM
Subject: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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I have some "irregular" tables in a PDF, of a rather simple nature, which JAWS is not reading correctly.
Each table has 4 columns and 5 rows. (In this email let's call each cell r1c1, r1c2,..., r2c1, r2c2,..., etc. for row 1-col 1, row 1-col 2, ..., row 2-col 1, row 2-col 2,..., and so on.)
The first row is the header row, and each TH has scope=column. The next 4 rows contain just data cells, but (here's the catch) there is only one data cell in column 3 and one data cell in column 4 because each of these TD cells spans all the remaining 4 rows of data cells in columns 1 and 2. That is, r2c3 has a row span of 4, and r2c4 has a row span of 4.
No matter what I do, JAWS (v16) does not read the data cell r2c3 nor the cell r2c4 when it reads rows 3,4, and 5 of the table. It does, however, correctly read the cells r2c3 and r2c4 when it reads row 2.
I have tried fixing this in Acrobat-- both using scope as well as indexed headers-- to no avail. I have also tried setting this up in CommonLook PDF Global Access using their table tools, again trying both using scope as well as indexed headers, also to no avail. NVDA was able to handle the table without a problem, but I need it to work well in JAWS.
Any suggestions?
Alan

From: Guerra Access Technology LLC | Stephen Guerra
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 6:51AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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Have you experimented with JAWS2018?


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From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 7:04AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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Whatever else you do… if the table is tagged correctly and works as expected in NVDA... file a bug with Freedom Scientific!

I understand that everyone's got a job to do, but hacking files to suit this-or-that version of x or y software is the sure route to keeping accessibility as the exception rather than the rule.

Duff.

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 07:58, Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I have some "irregular" tables in a PDF, of a rather simple nature, which JAWS is not reading correctly.
> Each table has 4 columns and 5 rows. (In this email let's call each cell r1c1, r1c2,..., r2c1, r2c2,..., etc. for row 1-col 1, row 1-col 2, ..., row 2-col 1, row 2-col 2,..., and so on.)
> The first row is the header row, and each TH has scope=column. The next 4 rows contain just data cells, but (here's the catch) there is only one data cell in column 3 and one data cell in column 4 because each of these TD cells spans all the remaining 4 rows of data cells in columns 1 and 2. That is, r2c3 has a row span of 4, and r2c4 has a row span of 4.
> No matter what I do, JAWS (v16) does not read the data cell r2c3 nor the cell r2c4 when it reads rows 3,4, and 5 of the table. It does, however, correctly read the cells r2c3 and r2c4 when it reads row 2.
> I have tried fixing this in Acrobat-- both using scope as well as indexed headers-- to no avail. I have also tried setting this up in CommonLook PDF Global Access using their table tools, again trying both using scope as well as indexed headers, also to no avail. NVDA was able to handle the table without a problem, but I need it to work well in JAWS.
> Any suggestions?
> Alan
>
>
> > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 10:29AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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I'm not sure there's really a problem. I duplicated your layout with an
html table, assuming I understand the layout correctly. I'm attaching an
html file, although I'm not sure if attachments come through on the
archives. The table should be as you described, but I also have a button
before and after the table because I like to tab into my test page to a
focusable object first, and then use T to navigate to the table, strictly
for testing purposes.

NVDA allows you to navigate to all cells in the table but JAWS (2018) does
not. There is an argument that JAWS is doing the right thing. Row 2
contains data for all four columns, with the last two cells spanning
multiple rows. Row 3 only contains two data cells, in the first two
columns. The last two data cells aren't really there because the cells
belong to row 2. So you hit the right edge of the table after the second
data cell.

I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can
understand why they would do it.

NVDA isn't completely great either. While NVDA will let me navigate across
row 3 and access the last two data cells as if they were on row 3, if I try
to navigate back to the left, I end up in row 2. So NVDA also interprets
the spanned rows as belonging to row 2.

I also tried the table with VoiceOver and it behaves like JAWS. As I swipe
right through the table, I can navigate across all of row 2. The VO focus
then moves to row 3 and only lets me access the first two cells and then
the focus moves to row 4. So like JAWS, VoiceOver thinks the spanned cells
belong to row 2 and that there are only two data cells in row 3. The nice
thing about VO is that it told me the last two cells in row 2 spanned four
rows. I don't know if JAWS or NVDA tell you that. I didn't try tracking
that down.

The end result is that it sounds like your PDF table is marked up correctly
because you're hearing the same behavior as an html table.

Glen

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 11:39AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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> I'm not saying I agree with how JAWS is interpreting it, but I can understand why they would do it.

Glenn, I was thinking the same exact thing. JAWS treats the span rows as only applicable to the first row they appear in-- this is how JAWS works. Maybe it should work differently? Maybe not? But it's likely not a problem with the table and depending on who you talk to it may or may not be a bug.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
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From: mhysnm1964
Date: Wed, Mar 28 2018 10:40PM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?

Sean

From: glen walker
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 11:17AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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Kind of. Assuming the tables are defined correctly, then nested tables
sort of work. JAWS will tell you a table is nested but NVDA and VoiceOver
will not.

And you can kind of get into a "tab trap" when navigating within the table.
If you use ctrl+alt+arrowkeys to navigate through the outer table and you
get to a cell that is a nested table, the ctrl+alt+arrowkeys start
navigating through the cells in the inner table but once you reach a table
boundary in the inner table, the key won't move you out of the table, just
like it works for a normal (non-nested) table. If you stick with
ctrl+alt+arrowkeys, you are stuck in the inner table. You have to use a
simple up or down arrow to get out of the inner table when you're on the
boundary.

So it's doable, but it might be cognitive challenging.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:40 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On this topic, does any screen reader handle nested tables correctly?
>
> Sean
>

From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 11:51AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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I've seen JAWS handle some nested tables, although there was a time where JAWS17 certainly didn't. I have a simple nested table example that both NVDA and JAWS do ok with in the current versions.
I seem to remember that at one time there were articles that suggested that nested tables be avoided, however, I'm not finding those articles, so, might have dreamt it.

From: Walker, Michael E
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 11:53AM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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Hi Don, have you looked at Freedom Scientific's Surfs Up guides for nested tables? I do not recall if they present examples on nested tables, but do remember that there is a section on dealing with difficult web pages.

From: Don Mauck
Date: Thu, Mar 29 2018 3:15PM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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There is, however, they really don't address nested tables.

From: Alan Zaitchik
Date: Fri, Mar 30 2018 12:48PM
Subject: Re: JAWS cannot handle complex table
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Thank you, all, for your insights.
I guess I am surprised that JAWS does not repeat the data cell when reading the subsequent "spanned" rows after the first, in the original case I described. Seems like this could have been addressed ages ago — and really shouldn't depend on what JAWS does with nested tables in the strict sense.
Anyway, if this is its behavior then we will tell the client (if they even notice) that JAWS users will probably expect it as a possibility, if JAWS announces that there are, say, four columns, but the user hears "end of row" after the second column. Of course it might also be that those cells are empty...
Alan