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Thread: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)
From: Vemaarapu Venkatesh
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 4:08AM
Subject: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
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Hello all, Greetings!
Considering the fact that the accessibility of MS Word, PowerPoint &
Outlook is been enhancing a lot recent days, still could someone find major
accessibility issues in these desktop apps?
What about the mobile versions of these apps on Android & IOS, are they
usable?
Regards,
Venkatesh
From: glen walker
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 9:08AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
I still use an older version of PPT (2016) and I treat it as an authoring
tool (ATAG). There is no way to mark images as decorative in the 2016
version but the 2019 version allows it.
PPT forces you (the user) to keep track of the reading order. The order
that objects are created on the slide is the reading order. It would be
really nice if PPT had an option to allow PPT to keep track of the reading
order as left to right, top to bottom. Sometimes you don't want that order
but the majority of the time that order would be correct. Forcing the user
to manually create that order is ridiculous. Making and deleting objects
and then moving them around is very common. Having to manually order the
objects is just stupid. Doing it for one slide is a pain, let alone for
30, 50, or 100 slides in just one presentation, and then if you make lots
of presentations, you'd spend most of your time ordering objects instead of
creating content. It's a huge failure by Microsoft.
Yes, I'm a bit testy about this particular subject. I have a 150 slide
slidedeck for teaching WCAG (details of all 50 AA success criteria) and I'm
always updating it with new examples (good and bad) and have to always
adjust the reading order to keep the slides accessible. It's a big waste
of time. Not a waste of time to make it accessible, it's a waste of time
that PPT won't do it for you. It's easy to do, programmatically. I've
written an object-oriented system before that kept track of the default tab
order (essentially the reading order) when creating objects, moving them
around, resizing, deleting, re-parenting, etc. It's absolutely doable and
is a significant failure by the PPT product team to ignore such a feature
when Microsoft says they focus on accessibility.
Now, again, I'm using Office 2016, so maybe they fixed this problem in 2019
or Office 365, so I can calm down. Would love to know if anyone has seen
if this is fixed in the latest version.
From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 10:35AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
By creating the order, are you talking about adding each object
individually? Since O13, you can go home > arrange > selection pane. In
O13, you have to use the up/down arrows provided to adjust. In O365, you
can draw and drop. One critical thing is the order is from the BOTTOM to
top. Only reason I can think they did this is to be backwards compatible
with 2003 and prior back when it was added in 2007 or 2010.
--
Ryan E. Benson
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 11:08 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I still use an older version of PPT (2016) and I treat it as an authoring
> tool (ATAG). There is no way to mark images as decorative in the 2016
> version but the 2019 version allows it.
>
> PPT forces you (the user) to keep track of the reading order. The order
> that objects are created on the slide is the reading order. It would be
> really nice if PPT had an option to allow PPT to keep track of the reading
> order as left to right, top to bottom. Sometimes you don't want that order
> but the majority of the time that order would be correct. Forcing the user
> to manually create that order is ridiculous. Making and deleting objects
> and then moving them around is very common. Having to manually order the
> objects is just stupid. Doing it for one slide is a pain, let alone for
> 30, 50, or 100 slides in just one presentation, and then if you make lots
> of presentations, you'd spend most of your time ordering objects instead of
> creating content. It's a huge failure by Microsoft.
>
> Yes, I'm a bit testy about this particular subject. I have a 150 slide
> slidedeck for teaching WCAG (details of all 50 AA success criteria) and I'm
> always updating it with new examples (good and bad) and have to always
> adjust the reading order to keep the slides accessible. It's a big waste
> of time. Not a waste of time to make it accessible, it's a waste of time
> that PPT won't do it for you. It's easy to do, programmatically. I've
> written an object-oriented system before that kept track of the default tab
> order (essentially the reading order) when creating objects, moving them
> around, resizing, deleting, re-parenting, etc. It's absolutely doable and
> is a significant failure by the PPT product team to ignore such a feature
> when Microsoft says they focus on accessibility.
>
> Now, again, I'm using Office 2016, so maybe they fixed this problem in 2019
> or Office 365, so I can calm down. Would love to know if anyone has seen
> if this is fixed in the latest version.
> > > > >
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 11:10AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
> One critical thing is the order is from the BOTTOM to
> top. Only reason I can think they did this is to be backwards compatible
> with 2003 and prior back when it was added in 2007 or 2010.
I always assumed that the reason PowerPoint reading order seems
backwards is due to the sequential (and limiting) nature of the file
format itself?
There is no PowerPoint text stream like with Word. The objects in a
PowerPoint are positioned more like content in a PDF file or a graphics
file: it is like they are "painted" onto the page. The object at the
bottom of the selection pane is "painted" first on the visual screen and
it is therefore first in the reading order as well. Then subsequent
objects are painted over top of that, until you get to the last item you
want read, and it is painted last.
The obvious problem with such a format is that it makes it impossible to
have an object appear visually underneath another object and yet have it
"read" later in the reading sequence. PDFs get around this with an
entirely separate tag layer structure with a separate reading order. But
PowerPoint files don't have any option like that.
Phil.
On 2019-11-01 12:35, Ryan E. Benson wrote:
> By creating the order, are you talking about adding each object
> individually? Since O13, you can go home > arrange > selection pane. In
> O13, you have to use the up/down arrows provided to adjust. In O365, you
> can draw and drop. One critical thing is the order is from the BOTTOM to
> top. Only reason I can think they did this is to be backwards compatible
> with 2003 and prior back when it was added in 2007 or 2010.
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 11:08 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I still use an older version of PPT (2016) and I treat it as an authoring
>> tool (ATAG). There is no way to mark images as decorative in the 2016
>> version but the 2019 version allows it.
>>
>> PPT forces you (the user) to keep track of the reading order. The order
>> that objects are created on the slide is the reading order. It would be
>> really nice if PPT had an option to allow PPT to keep track of the reading
>> order as left to right, top to bottom. Sometimes you don't want that order
>> but the majority of the time that order would be correct. Forcing the user
>> to manually create that order is ridiculous. Making and deleting objects
>> and then moving them around is very common. Having to manually order the
>> objects is just stupid. Doing it for one slide is a pain, let alone for
>> 30, 50, or 100 slides in just one presentation, and then if you make lots
>> of presentations, you'd spend most of your time ordering objects instead of
>> creating content. It's a huge failure by Microsoft.
>>
>> Yes, I'm a bit testy about this particular subject. I have a 150 slide
>> slidedeck for teaching WCAG (details of all 50 AA success criteria) and I'm
>> always updating it with new examples (good and bad) and have to always
>> adjust the reading order to keep the slides accessible. It's a big waste
>> of time. Not a waste of time to make it accessible, it's a waste of time
>> that PPT won't do it for you. It's easy to do, programmatically. I've
>> written an object-oriented system before that kept track of the default tab
>> order (essentially the reading order) when creating objects, moving them
>> around, resizing, deleting, re-parenting, etc. It's absolutely doable and
>> is a significant failure by the PPT product team to ignore such a feature
>> when Microsoft says they focus on accessibility.
>>
>> Now, again, I'm using Office 2016, so maybe they fixed this problem in 2019
>> or Office 365, so I can calm down. Would love to know if anyone has seen
>> if this is fixed in the latest version.
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > >
From: L Snider
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 11:38AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
One thing to note is that Mac is still not fun, compared to PC
versions....Microsoft has made some great changes the last two years,
the checkers are getting better and easier to use...PowerPoint order I
think was tweaked in 2019..I use my Mac more than my PC these days, so
I can't check it right now on the fast insider (to see what is coming
up for the mainstream).
Cheers
Lisa
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:10 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > One critical thing is the order is from the BOTTOM to
> > top. Only reason I can think they did this is to be backwards compatible
> > with 2003 and prior back when it was added in 2007 or 2010.
> I always assumed that the reason PowerPoint reading order seems
> backwards is due to the sequential (and limiting) nature of the file
> format itself?
>
> There is no PowerPoint text stream like with Word. The objects in a
> PowerPoint are positioned more like content in a PDF file or a graphics
> file: it is like they are "painted" onto the page. The object at the
> bottom of the selection pane is "painted" first on the visual screen and
> it is therefore first in the reading order as well. Then subsequent
> objects are painted over top of that, until you get to the last item you
> want read, and it is painted last.
>
> The obvious problem with such a format is that it makes it impossible to
> have an object appear visually underneath another object and yet have it
> "read" later in the reading sequence. PDFs get around this with an
> entirely separate tag layer structure with a separate reading order. But
> PowerPoint files don't have any option like that.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-11-01 12:35, Ryan E. Benson wrote:
> > By creating the order, are you talking about adding each object
> > individually? Since O13, you can go home > arrange > selection pane. In
> > O13, you have to use the up/down arrows provided to adjust. In O365, you
> > can draw and drop. One critical thing is the order is from the BOTTOM to
> > top. Only reason I can think they did this is to be backwards compatible
> > with 2003 and prior back when it was added in 2007 or 2010.
> >
> > --
> > Ryan E. Benson
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 11:08 AM glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> I still use an older version of PPT (2016) and I treat it as an authoring
> >> tool (ATAG). There is no way to mark images as decorative in the 2016
> >> version but the 2019 version allows it.
> >>
> >> PPT forces you (the user) to keep track of the reading order. The order
> >> that objects are created on the slide is the reading order. It would be
> >> really nice if PPT had an option to allow PPT to keep track of the reading
> >> order as left to right, top to bottom. Sometimes you don't want that order
> >> but the majority of the time that order would be correct. Forcing the user
> >> to manually create that order is ridiculous. Making and deleting objects
> >> and then moving them around is very common. Having to manually order the
> >> objects is just stupid. Doing it for one slide is a pain, let alone for
> >> 30, 50, or 100 slides in just one presentation, and then if you make lots
> >> of presentations, you'd spend most of your time ordering objects instead of
> >> creating content. It's a huge failure by Microsoft.
> >>
> >> Yes, I'm a bit testy about this particular subject. I have a 150 slide
> >> slidedeck for teaching WCAG (details of all 50 AA success criteria) and I'm
> >> always updating it with new examples (good and bad) and have to always
> >> adjust the reading order to keep the slides accessible. It's a big waste
> >> of time. Not a waste of time to make it accessible, it's a waste of time
> >> that PPT won't do it for you. It's easy to do, programmatically. I've
> >> written an object-oriented system before that kept track of the default tab
> >> order (essentially the reading order) when creating objects, moving them
> >> around, resizing, deleting, re-parenting, etc. It's absolutely doable and
> >> is a significant failure by the PPT product team to ignore such a feature
> >> when Microsoft says they focus on accessibility.
> >>
> >> Now, again, I'm using Office 2016, so maybe they fixed this problem in 2019
> >> or Office 365, so I can calm down. Would love to know if anyone has seen
> >> if this is fixed in the latest version.
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > >
From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 11:49AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello,
Office products still have a long way to go until they have an incredible
UX.
NVDA does not read content of cells while you are editing in Excel.
It's extremely difficult to read 2-columns in Word.
It's not possible to add alt-text to an image in word only using the
keyboard.
When you are doing live editing, where two people are editing the same
document at once, NVDA says "edit" before every line in word.
These are just the major problems I have experienced in the last week.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 3:08 AM Vemaarapu Venkatesh <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello all, Greetings!
>
>
>
> Considering the fact that the accessibility of MS Word, PowerPoint &
> Outlook is been enhancing a lot recent days, still could someone find major
> accessibility issues in these desktop apps?
>
> What about the mobile versions of these apps on Android & IOS, are they
> usable?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Venkatesh
> > > > >
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 11:56AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
> It's not possible to add alt-text to an image in word only using the keyboard.
It's very possible to add alt text with the keyboard. For screen reader users like JAWS press control+shift+o select the image and then use the context menu and choose edit alt text. For non-screen reader users you can select the image with shift+left or right arrows then use the context menu to choose edit alt text.
Jonathan
From: chagnon
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 12:05PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
How accessible are Word's Content Control fields in recent versions?
- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog
From: mhysnm1964
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 7:22PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Jaws using the latest release of Excel edits the cell with no issues. I
cannot comment on editing a shared document at the same time. Something I
have not done yet. Jaws doesn't have issues with pages in a 2 or more column
structure. This indicates there are some issues within NVDA on how it is
accessing the relevant information. Jaws uses the DOM and UIA to achieve the
level of access. Not sure if NVDA does the same.
The other consideration is if these custom scripts from NVDA (assuming there
is one) and Jaws custom scripts were not present. The level of accessibility
for Office would be reduced. I have not spent the time to identify the gaps.
MAC Office uses Apple Accessibility Framework to get the level of
accessibility. There is some UX issues here as well due to the method of
implementation when I used it last.
The adding of alt text to images has been addressed already.
I don't know if the equation editor is accessible yet or not to assistive
tech users.
Sean
From: Glen Walker
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 7:26PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Exactly my point. You have to *manually* fix the reading order. Every object on every slide on every presentation. It should be automatic.
And speaking of tables in word, I have not found a way to create row headers.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Nov 1, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> By creating the order, are you talking about adding each object
> individually? Since O13, you can go home > arrange > selection pane.
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 7:42PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Yeah, the interface for managing object order and reading order in
PowerPoint seems both unintuitive and crappy to me, too.
Having said that, in case others aren't aware, if you use master slide
layouts that match exactly the objects in your slide content, then you
can in fact set the order to be correct automatically for each slide.
So, for e.g., if you have many slides with a title, a text block on the
left, and an image object on the right, then you can create a template
with those exact placeholders, and you can customize the order of the
placeholders in the arrange > selection pane options in the master
template. From then on, any slides using that template will follow the
order you set. And blank slides using that layout will have the right
kind of placeholders in the right places to insert text/images. So in
the case of a fairly standard 100-plus slide presentation, you don't
always necessarily have to custom order each and every slide.
This doesn't help in the case of presentations built out of many complex
slides with constantly varying number of custom objects. But most
PowerPoint users don't really need or what to do that. And indeed, one
might even argue that the PowerPoint format is not really the best
choice in the case of a need for complex visual presentation to begin with.
Phil.
On 2019-11-01 21:26, Glen Walker wrote:
> Exactly my point. You have to *manually* fix the reading order. Every object on every slide on every presentation. It should be automatic.
>
> And speaking of tables in word, I have not found a way to create row headers.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> By creating the order, are you talking about adding each object
>> individually? Since O13, you can go home > arrange > selection pane.
> > > >
From: mhysnm1964
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 7:44PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Is there such a beast providing best practice for designing powerpoints to
ensure they are accessible?
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 7:56PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
There are a handful of such resources in various places, I think, but my
go-to first-stop continues to be the resources provided by our mailing
list hosts, WebAIM:
https://webaim.org/techniques/powerpoint/
and
https://webaim.org/techniques/word/
One of the things I like about the WebAIM resources, is that they seem
to do a reasonably good job keeping their Word and PowerPoint resources
up-to-date in order to reflect changes in various versions of Microsoft
Office. Their pages are not necessarily 100% comprehensive of
everything, but I find them consistently reliable as a good first stop.
Phil.
On 2019-11-01 21:44, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Is there such a beast providing best practice for designing powerpoints to
> ensure they are accessible?
From: Krista Greear
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 10:17PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Something I was just made aware of - there have been some recent releases
to Microsoft's Accessibility Checker updated October 14th
<https://insider.office.com/en-us/releasenotes/pc/slow> that will likely be
of interest.
- Convert to modern documents for improved accessibility
- Accessibility checker reminders when creating PDFs
- Use the Reading Order pane to group objects into logical units, add
alt text to objects, review automatically generated alt text, and remove
objects from the reading order.
- Adding slide titles from Checker
- Adding hidden slide titles from Checker
Peter Frem <https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterfrem> is the manager of the MS
Accessibility Checker and is more than happy to directly connect with you
about your feedback and comments. Feel free to contact him at
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = .
Krista
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 6:56 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> There are a handful of such resources in various places, I think, but my
> go-to first-stop continues to be the resources provided by our mailing
> list hosts, WebAIM:
> https://webaim.org/techniques/powerpoint/
> and
> https://webaim.org/techniques/word/
>
> One of the things I like about the WebAIM resources, is that they seem
> to do a reasonably good job keeping their Word and PowerPoint resources
> up-to-date in order to reflect changes in various versions of Microsoft
> Office. Their pages are not necessarily 100% comprehensive of
> everything, but I find them consistently reliable as a good first stop.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-11-01 21:44, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> > Is there such a beast providing best practice for designing powerpoints
> to
> > ensure they are accessible?
> > > > >
--
Krista Greear
Accessibility and Inclusivity Crusader
âATHEN Executive Council Vice Presidentâ
Access Technology Higher Education Network <https://athenpro.org/>
From: glen walker
Date: Fri, Nov 01 2019 10:22PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
Oh, absolutely. I use master slides as much as possible. But there's
rarely a time that I don't add an image or shape or something to my slide
and then that affects the reading order.
On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 7:42 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Having said that, in case others aren't aware, if you use master slide
> layouts that match exactly the objects in your slide content, then you
> can in fact set the order to be correct automatically for each slide.
>
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Sat, Nov 02 2019 10:15AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
I also have updated resources on creating accessible Word and PowerPoint
(and converting to PDF) on my Teachable site. They are free.
https://karen-mccall.teachable.com/p/microsoft-office-tutorials-and-resource
-documents
There is a list of current topics on that page for you to look at before you
sign up/enroll.
You just have to sign in and enroll. I use Teachable because I can then send
a post to everyone in that "course" when I post an update. I do not use your
e-mail for anything else like marketing.
I am currently teaching the accessible PowerPoint segment of my course on
accessible Word and PowerPoint in the Mohawk College certificate program
"Accessible Media Production."
For those living in the Hamilton ON area of Canada and might be interested
in this certificate, here is a link to the program description:
https://www.mohawkcollege.ca/programs/graduate-studies/accessible-media-prod
uction-390
It is another example of how accessibility and inclusion are being
recognized as needing to be part of education!
Cheers, Karen
From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Sat, Nov 02 2019 11:11AM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | Next message →
In case that link wrapped for you (like it did me) here it is again:
https://karen-mccall.teachable.com/p/microsoft-office-tutorials-and-resource
-documents
From: Karlen Communications
Date: Sat, Nov 02 2019 2:18PM
Subject: Re: Are there major accessibility issues in Word, PowerPoint & Outlook
← Previous message | No next message
Sorry it wrapped. If you go to the main page:
https://karen-mccall.teachable.com/
Then activate the "View all courses and publications" it is the last one. If
you're using a screen reader, it will be in the list of links - starting
with the letter M for those using first character navigation.
Cheers, Karen