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Thread: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)
From: Tyler Shepard
Date: Fri, Apr 24 2020 4:39PM
Subject: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
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Hi all,
I received a call from a company called 216 digital a few minutes ago. They want to hire me for manual accessibility testing. However, they also want to hire a developer who understands accessibility where can I find such a person?
Thanks for your help.
Respectfully yours,
Tyler Shepard
From: Steve Green
Date: Sat, Apr 25 2020 10:10AM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Even if you believe in a multiverse where every possible outcome occurs in a universe somewhere, I'm still not sure you'll find a developer who understands accessibility.
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
From: glen walker
Date: Sat, Apr 25 2020 11:30AM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
I do :-)
On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 9:10 AM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Even if you believe in a multiverse where every possible outcome occurs in
> a universe somewhere, I'm still not sure you'll find a developer who
> understands accessibility.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
>
From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Sat, Apr 25 2020 3:29PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
We design and develop accessible websites, and I teach other web
designers and developers how to do so as well.
Feel free to reach out. I'd be happy to chat.
Colleen Gratzer
Certified Branding Expert + Accessibility Specialist, Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com
Design Mentor and Host of the Design Domination podcast
http://creative-boost.com
On 4/24/20 6:39 PM, Tyler Shepard wrote:
> Hi all,
> I received a call from a company called 216 digital a few minutes ago. They want to hire me for manual accessibility testing. However, they also want to hire a developer who understands accessibility where can I find such a person?
> Thanks for your help.
> Respectfully yours,
> Tyler Shepard
> > > > >
From: Larry C. Lyons
Date: Sun, Apr 26 2020 1:17PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Steve,
Your remark was uncalled for, and an insult to us developers who do happen
know accessibility. The next time our group is looking for a testing
company, I am sure I'll take your snippy and insulting comment into
consideration.
On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 at 14:04, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Send WebAIM-Forum mailing list submissions to
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> 2. Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
> (Steve Green)
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 2020 16:10:11 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
> Even if you believe in a multiverse where every possible outcome occurs in
> a universe somewhere, I'm still not sure you'll find a developer who
> understands accessibility.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
--
Larry C. Lyons
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://www.lyonsmorris.com/lyons
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/larryclyons
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/larryclyons>;
Mobile: (703) 888-7435
From: Steve Green
Date: Sun, Apr 26 2020 1:43PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Larry, I'm sorry if you took my comments the wrong way. In nearly 20 years of testing and countless hundreds of projects, we have only seen a handful of pages that were fully WCAG AA conformant, and even the smallest and simplest websites contained non-conformances. Many of those developers would say they know accessibility, but for some reason that knowledge has never resulted in a conformant website. The next time your group is looking for a testing company we would be happy to do a couple of days' testing free of charge.
Regards,
Steve
From: chagnon
Date: Sun, Apr 26 2020 3:35PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Supporting Steve and his original request. Although there was a bit of snark
in his original post, we've found the same with web developers knowledge of
accessibility.
There ARE developers who know it well, but they are few and usually booked
to the hilt.
I'd love to find one or more who we can use for our own website and
recommend to our clients.
- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog
From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Sun, Apr 26 2020 4:45PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
A gap in this area for accessibility is books and videos which train people in development and design do not cover accessibility fully. Ive read too many books that dont discuss it or its only likely touched upon
Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 7:35:30 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
[External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation be cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
Supporting Steve and his original request. Although there was a bit of snark
in his original post, we've found the same with web developers knowledge of
accessibility.
There ARE developers who know it well, but they are few and usually booked
to the hilt.
I'd love to find one or more who we can use for our own website and
recommend to our clients.
- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://www.PubCom.com/blog>;
From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Sun, Apr 26 2020 6:26PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Agreed, Sean. That's exactly why I created an online course for this.
Bookwise, I have found Inclusive Design Patterns by Smashing Magazine's
Heydon Pickering to be very helpful.
Colleen Gratzer
Certified Branding Expert + Accessibility Specialist, Gratzer Graphics LLC
https://gratzergraphics.com
Design Mentor and Host of the Design Domination podcast
http://creative-boost.com
On 4/26/20 6:45 PM, Murphy, Sean wrote:
> A gap in this area for accessibility is books and videos which train people in development and design do not cover accessibility fully. Ive read too many books that dont discuss it or its only likely touched upon
>
> Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 7:35:30 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
>
> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation be cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>
> Supporting Steve and his original request. Although there was a bit of snark
> in his original post, we've found the same with web developers knowledge of
> accessibility.
>
> There ARE developers who know it well, but they are few and usually booked
> to the hilt.
>
> I'd love to find one or more who we can use for our own website and
> recommend to our clients.
>
> - - -
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> - - -
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
> - - -
> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://www.PubCom.com/blog>;
>
>
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sun, Apr 26 2020 8:56PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
I've seen all kinds, but a great developer that has not studied
accessibility is not going to automatically start coding super
accessible content, but they can learn to do so, very much.
Developers that want to be truly accessibility aware can start with
the EDX Intro to accessibility course, decent background and basics.
Ultimately they need to be WAS (Web Accessibility Specialist) certified.
See the IAAP website http://accessibilityassociation.org (under
"certifications").
It costs $500 and you will have to sacrifice 40 to 80 hours of
studying, probably participate in development of a few projects with
an accessibility expert and you often have to try twice, but in my
experience of having worked with a large team of good developers, most
of which were new to accessibility initially, those who took the
certification started delivering some seriously good quality code and
asking some seriously relevant questions.
I have gotten around a dozen developers certified, about half needed
two tries, and the difference in understanding was incredible (and,
no, I am not IAAP affiliated so it's not a promotion for that
organization at all).
Developers can't be expected to understand designing for non-sighted
users, even if they know what a screen reader is, any more than I, a a
blind person, am expected to draw or design a cool looking logo.
It's a different mind set and skill, it's a hot skill so worth
investing in, but we have to understand each other that efforts are
required, to bring accessibility to developers and development to
accessibility.
We've all been frustrated, on both sides of the fence, and we all got
to vent from time to time.
Cheers
-B
On 4/26/20, Colleen Gratzer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Agreed, Sean. That's exactly why I created an online course for this.
>
> Bookwise, I have found Inclusive Design Patterns by Smashing Magazine's
> Heydon Pickering to be very helpful.
>
>
> Colleen Gratzer
> Certified Branding Expert + Accessibility Specialist, Gratzer Graphics LLC
> https://gratzergraphics.com
> Design Mentor and Host of the Design Domination podcast
> http://creative-boost.com
>
>
>
> On 4/26/20 6:45 PM, Murphy, Sean wrote:
>> A gap in this area for accessibility is books and videos which train
>> people in development and design do not cover accessibility fully. I've
>> read too many books that don't discuss it or it's only likely touched
>> upon
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 7:35:30 AM
>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
>>
>> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation â be
>> cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>>
>> Supporting Steve and his original request. Although there was a bit of
>> snark
>> in his original post, we've found the same with web developers knowledge
>> of
>> accessibility.
>>
>> There ARE developers who know it well, but they are few and usually
>> booked
>> to the hilt.
>>
>> I'd love to find one or more who we can use for our own website and
>> recommend to our clients.
>>
>> - - -
>> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> - - -
>> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
>> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
>> - - -
>> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at
>> www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://www.PubCom.com/blog>;
>>
>>
From: Dhananjay Bhole
Date: Mon, Apr 27 2020 4:15AM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi,
Yes I agree with Birkir that the developers should have any
certification in the area of accessibility. But that is ideal
condition which can be very challenging for large number of
developers.
Organization can ask their developers for going through short online
training materials like Webaim articles or Deque university web 2.0
courses Which are quite easy and doable for any developers. Those who
wish to excel in accessible development can go for WAS Certification.
We conduct short hands-on training to our web developers to make them
aware about basics of accessible scripting and that suffice as they
are accompanied with End users accessibility testers in their team who
have good knowledge of accessibility and partial knowledge of coding.
I believe that colleges and universities should introduce contextual
topics on accessible application development in their regular degree
programs that will solve these challenges on large extend.
Best
On 4/26/20, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I've seen all kinds, but a great developer that has not studied
> accessibility is not going to automatically start coding super
> accessible content, but they can learn to do so, very much.
>
> Developers that want to be truly accessibility aware can start with
> the EDX Intro to accessibility course, decent background and basics.
>
> Ultimately they need to be WAS (Web Accessibility Specialist) certified.
> See the IAAP website http://accessibilityassociation.org (under
> "certifications").
> It costs $500 and you will have to sacrifice 40 to 80 hours of
> studying, probably participate in development of a few projects with
> an accessibility expert and you often have to try twice, but in my
> experience of having worked with a large team of good developers, most
> of which were new to accessibility initially, those who took the
> certification started delivering some seriously good quality code and
> asking some seriously relevant questions.
> I have gotten around a dozen developers certified, about half needed
> two tries, and the difference in understanding was incredible (and,
> no, I am not IAAP affiliated so it's not a promotion for that
> organization at all).
> Developers can't be expected to understand designing for non-sighted
> users, even if they know what a screen reader is, any more than I, a a
> blind person, am expected to draw or design a cool looking logo.
> It's a different mind set and skill, it's a hot skill so worth
> investing in, but we have to understand each other that efforts are
> required, to bring accessibility to developers and development to
> accessibility.
> We've all been frustrated, on both sides of the fence, and we all got
> to vent from time to time.
> Cheers
> -B
>
> On 4/26/20, Colleen Gratzer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Agreed, Sean. That's exactly why I created an online course for this.
>>
>> Bookwise, I have found Inclusive Design Patterns by Smashing Magazine's
>> Heydon Pickering to be very helpful.
>>
>>
>> Colleen Gratzer
>> Certified Branding Expert + Accessibility Specialist, Gratzer Graphics LLC
>> https://gratzergraphics.com
>> Design Mentor and Host of the Design Domination podcast
>> http://creative-boost.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/26/20 6:45 PM, Murphy, Sean wrote:
>>> A gap in this area for accessibility is books and videos which train
>>> people in development and design do not cover accessibility fully. I've
>>> read too many books that don't discuss it or it's only likely touched
>>> upon
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>>> >>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 7:35:30 AM
>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
>>>
>>> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation â be
>>> cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>>>
>>> Supporting Steve and his original request. Although there was a bit of
>>> snark
>>> in his original post, we've found the same with web developers knowledge
>>> of
>>> accessibility.
>>>
>>> There ARE developers who know it well, but they are few and usually
>>> booked
>>> to the hilt.
>>>
>>> I'd love to find one or more who we can use for our own website and
>>> recommend to our clients.
>>>
>>> - - -
>>> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> - - -
>>> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>>> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
>>> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
>>> - - -
>>> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at
>>> www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://www.PubCom.com/blog>;
>>>
>>>
From: Peter Shikli
Date: Mon, Apr 27 2020 3:16PM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →
My initial recommendation is to recognize that website accessibility is
a team sport. You've been asked to find a quarterback who is also a
good lineman. Better is to find two who work well together.
We've got over a dozen highly experienced accessibility experts who know
something about web design. I wouldn't hire the one who knows the most
about web design to be an organization's web developer. We also have an
accessibility expert who can talk website security to a client's
sysadmin. Do you think she could be made responsible for a website's
security? No way.
The good news is that you don't need two full-time bodies. You probably
do need a full-time webmaster/designer since they are also systems
integrators, but the mark of a great accessibility expert is how little
you need her for your organization to become accessible. They get
involved early with requirements, wire frames, mockups, widget
selection, and most importantly hands-on training during the design
phase, but only an hour here and there, and then a final audit which you
may well pass on the first attempt.
   Cheers,
   Peter Shikli
   Access2online Inc.
   www.access2online.com
   Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible
From: Dr Jonathan Hassell
Date: Wed, Apr 29 2020 1:47AM
Subject: Re: how do I find a developer who knows accessibility
← Previous message | No next message
Larry, Bevi, and all looking for developers who know accessibility,
Hope you're safe and well.
Interesting conversation. And it's great that you want to find devs who are great at accessibility.
I know where Steve is coming from - what we've found is that many developers whose accessibility knowledge comes from training on-the-job, or via free online training, get some of the basics, but nowhere near what they need to accessibly code modern websites. When it comes to accessible development, especially ARIA, it's almost like a bit of incomplete knowledge is a dangerous thing.
In my mind, the best way to find accessible developers is to create your own, through assessing their capabilities, and then training them in the areas that they are weak.
We've been doing that for over 6 years for some of the largest companies in the world, and it's really paying dividends.
We're about to book in some new public developer courses that you can book individual developers onto to complete their upskilling, so if you need that, please register your interest at: https://www.hassellinclusion.com/courses/web-developers/ <https://www.hassellinclusion.com/courses/web-developers/>
Best of luck everyone
Jonathan
CEO, Hassell Inclusion