E-mail List Archives

Search E-mail List Archives for

Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Peter Shikli
Date: Mon, Jul 26 2021 6:45PM
Subject: Best Possible Audio Description
No previous message | Next message →

July 23rd's thread about creating accessible technical how-to video
content inspired some conversations in our shop about the best possible
audio descriptions, which I will present for community feedback below. 
More importantly, the best possible audio description seems to conflict
with WCAG's requirements, and that is where we would truly appreciate
some guidance.

Let's begin by recognizing that we are not referring to closed captions.
Those are for the deaf whereas audio description are mainly for the
blind, and their interests should remain our focus here.

Our disagreement with WCAG begins with the requirement that an audio
description be a feature of the video player as per their glossary's
definition of an audio description being "synchronized" to the video
(with that never mentioned in the numbered success criteria). For
obvious reasons, the blind use video players about as much as they use
mice. Audio in the form of a compact mp3 on their smartphones would
serve their needs better than forcing them to put the megafile of a
video somewhere just to listen to its audio description track.

The audio track of the video is all they need, plus the scene
descriptions between the dialog. That latter isn't a trivial requirement
in practice. Consider scripting the scene description of a how-to video,
which can be the key information of the video. If you thought an alt
description of an image was tough, how about a scene packed with
information, emotion, nuances, special effects, text images, and all the
creativity of a Spielberg.

Then comes the WCAG requirement causing us the most pain, the need to
pack all that into the time slot between dialog for level AA. Putting a
pause in the video while the audio description rolls complies at a AAA
level but builds needless resentment among the sighted unless we're back
to allowing a link to a version best for the disabled.

Following is how we propose to make accessible the how-to videos sitting
in my in-basket. First we extract the dialog plus music & sounds into a
separate mp3. We then carefully script the meaningful scene
descriptions. Then we have a trained voiceover artist read that scene
script into the space between dialog, but expanding that audio whenever
needed.

Such a best-possible audio description would retain the original dialog
for its artistic value. How much better than replacing Morgan Freeman's
voice with an NVDA robot! And no NVDA robot for the scene description
either. More of a Mark Twain story telling to keep the listener awake.
Much more satisfying and informative than a transcript for a screen reader.

The end result would be a link near the video to a separate mp3 audio
description that even busy sighted listeners may appreciate on their
commute to work as a more accurate rendition of the video. My question
is how to make this compliant to Title II and III of the ADA which
requires WCAG 2.1 level AA?

Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online Inc.
29030 SW Town Center Loop East
Suite 202-187
Wilsonville, OR 97070
503-570-6831 - = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cell: 949-677-3705
FAX: 503-582-8337
www.access2online.com
Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Jul 26 2021 7:16PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

Many legally blind people rely on audio description but also follow along and enjoy as much as possible with the visuals of video. Also people with disabilities watch videos together with other people and may want audio description with the visuals so sighted, non-sighted, and deaf/hard of hearing can all enjoy. Some folks are also visually impaired and hard of hearing and need both audio description and captions.

Jonathan

From: Shawn Henry
Date: Mon, Jul 26 2021 10:34PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

Jonathan, Thanks for sharing that perspective.

Peter,

Some input:

* For a "description of a how-to video":
1. ideally the how-to video has integrated description (https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/av-content/#integrate-description)
2. some people would much prefer a descriptive transcript (that includes audio and visual information in text) so they can consume it at their own pace

* WCAG allows separate versions; that is, you can have a described version and a non-described version of the video.

* You could additionally provide an audio-only alternative as you describe. (Though probably wise to confirm that your users really would find it useful, before doing it.)

Hope that helps,
~Shawn



On 26-Jul-21 8:16 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> Many legally blind people rely on audio description but also follow along and enjoy as much as possible with the visuals of video. Also people with disabilities watch videos together with other people and may want audio description with the visuals so sighted, non-sighted, and deaf/hard of hearing can all enjoy. Some folks are also visually impaired and hard of hearing and need both audio description and captions.
>
> Jonathan
>
>

From: Chris O'Brien
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 7:27AM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what is being said here, but I feel there are several assumptions being made which are leading you to these conclusions.

"the blind use video players about as much as they use mice"

This is akin to suggesting that people from the blind community only listen to radio and don't watch TV, which I can assure you is not true.

" If you thought an alt description of an image was tough, how about a scene packed with information, emotion, nuances, special effects, text images, and all the creativity of a Spielberg."

The role of the describer is not to jam everything you see and hear into the secondary audio track. Describers intuit context and bring that forward, where possible and spacing in a video allows. The big caveat here is that not all information should be weighted equally. The describer will prioritize what is critical to the narrative and attempt to bring that forward - but sometimes that is not possible. If there are larger gaps in dialogue then the describer can opt to include information with secondary and tertiary importance.

As Shawn mentioned, if you are the script writer, you can proactively analyze your script and identify and remove ambiguity, which will limit the amount of description you will need. Audio design is also important as the audio palette can also communicate a lot of information. This is often overlooked.

I can appreciate that it can appear overwhelming on the surface. Keep in mind that audio description is not meant to eliminate all discrepancies, it's meant to minimize them.

Chris O'Brien
Director of Accessibility
Legal and Litigation


OLG Internal

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 8:33AM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

I feel like I should maybe try to clear up a possible misconception.

Based on my personal experience, people who are blind use video players all the time. I frequently (almost on a daily basis) receive YouTube links from people who are blind. Additionally, I myself am totally blind (with no vision or light perception) and "watch" videos every day. It is rare that I watch a video with someone who is sighted. In fact, the only video I watch right now with anyone sighted is "Ted Lasso" with my brother on Fridays since we both are fans and it makes a great way to end a work week.

By the way, no offense is taken about anything previously written. I just want to clarify any potential misconception that people who are blind might not be frequent consumers of video content as well.

Thanks!
Tim

From: Peter Shikli
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 1:00PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

Tim's comment about the blind preferring to use video players puts an unexpected hole in our plans to deliver the best possible audio description. This then becomes a call to the blind, not just the legally blind who are visually impaired, to let me know what the blind can gain from a video player when they are consuming the video content by themselves -- as compared to a proper audio description as a separate mp3 file.

I hope no one is offended by the question, but I need this understanding to better serve the needs of the totally blind.

Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online Inc.

----------------------------------------
From: "Tim Harshbarger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: 7/27/21 7:34 AM
To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, "'Peter Shikli'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description

I feel like I should maybe try to clear up a possible misconception.

Based on my personal experience, people who are blind use video players all the time. I frequently (almost on a daily basis) receive YouTube links from people who are blind. Additionally, I myself am totally blind (with no vision or light perception) and "watch" videos every day. It is rare that I watch a video with someone who is sighted. In fact, the only video I watch right now with anyone sighted is "Ted Lasso" with my brother on Fridays since we both are fans and it makes a great way to end a work week.

By the way, no offense is taken about anything previously written. I just want to clarify any potential misconception that people who are blind might not be frequent consumers of video content as well.

Thanks!
Tim

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 1:16PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
What's the difference between a video player and an audio player when
you're blind? The video player controls are more familiar, that's all.
Sometimes, when doing presentations, or when I want to share the video with
sighted users, then the video component becomes more useful. But I don't
know if a video is a video unless I hear "video player", "youtube player"
or something similar.
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 12:10 PM Peter Shikli < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Tim's comment about the blind preferring to use video players puts an
> unexpected hole in our plans to deliver the best possible audio
> description. This then becomes a call to the blind, not just the legally
> blind who are visually impaired, to let me know what the blind can gain
> from a video player when they are consuming the video content by themselves
> -- as compared to a proper audio description as a separate mp3 file.
>
> I hope no one is offended by the question, but I need this understanding
> to better serve the needs of the totally blind.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter Shikli
> Access2online Inc.
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: "Tim Harshbarger" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: 7/27/21 7:34 AM
> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, "'Peter
> Shikli'" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Best Possible Audio Description
>
> I feel like I should maybe try to clear up a possible misconception.
>
> Based on my personal experience, people who are blind use video players
> all the time. I frequently (almost on a daily basis) receive YouTube links
> from people who are blind. Additionally, I myself am totally blind (with no
> vision or light perception) and "watch" videos every day. It is rare that I
> watch a video with someone who is sighted. In fact, the only video I watch
> right now with anyone sighted is "Ted Lasso" with my brother on Fridays
> since we both are fans and it makes a great way to end a work week.
>
> By the way, no offense is taken about anything previously written. I just
> want to clarify any potential misconception that people who are blind might
> not be frequent consumers of video content as well.
>
> Thanks!
> Tim
>
>

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 1:35PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

In an ideal world, you would be able to turn on and off audio description just like any other service in the player, such as captioning.

You need to be able to get to, and use all the controls from the keyboard.

Dave

From: L Snider
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 1:48PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi David,

That is possible with HTML 5 players like AblePlayer, where you can
turn on and off audio description, sign language, etc. So it depends
on how you made the video/audio track.

Cheers

Lisa

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 4:36 PM Andrews, David B (DEED)
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> In an ideal world, you would be able to turn on and off audio description just like any other service in the player, such as captioning.
>
> You need to be able to get to, and use all the controls from the keyboard.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Jul 27 2021 7:27PM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

As a blind person myself I typically only use videos because I'm
looking for something and it's typically on YouTube. I know YouTube
sometimes has video, sometimes only audio, but I'm not really paying
attention to it.
I often follow along with videos with friends (or with colleagues when
it's work related) and in those situations it would be best to have
togglable audio description, especially when it can be fit into the
pauses between natural dialog and do not need a separate "extended"
version of the video.
For those situations I prefer a text transcript that captures the
dialog and a transcript of the information that is presented between
scenes in the dialog.
WCAG does allow for a conforming alternative solution, if it can be
accessed from the same page and contains all the same information as
the inaccessible version.
The examples given are primarily webpages, but same logic can be
applied to videos.
A few things to consider:
1. What video players are you planning to use (and does that player
have the ability to toggle a separate audio description track). This
was unusual a couple of years ago but support for this is being added
to some of the mainstream video platforms.
2. Can you still update the video script to maximize the information
that is communicated through the spoken word/audio (as opposed to
on-screen text and other infomration), keep in mind that you don't
have to describe everything, only communicate the visuals that provide
actual info to supplement the infomration in the audio (you don't have
to describe a random screenshot or a person who happens to be visible
in the background if they're not part of the plot or information).
3. If not, can you fit in audio description without stretching out the
video track?

If no to all of the above you can either
* Create a separate video with audio description added as well as the
necessary additional pauses (the audio description does not have to be
togglable since it is part of another version of the video).
* Do the same, but usse audio only version, not a video version (it's
a smaller footprint, easier to use without streaming extra data so it
could be useful for those who want to consume the videos as podcasts.
* Create an extended text transcript that incldues spoken word
transcript and all the visual clues (including identifying speakers if
more than one), post that transcript along with the video.

I really like that you're trying to go such extra length to provide
equivalent experience for all!

And, yes, though it's not what you asked and I'm sure you're already
aware of it, add captions for those who can't hear the audio (either
because they have a hearing impairment or they are watching at work
and can't keep the sound turned on).




On 7/27/21, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> That is possible with HTML 5 players like AblePlayer, where you can
> turn on and off audio description, sign language, etc. So it depends
> on how you made the video/audio track.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 4:36 PM Andrews, David B (DEED)
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> In an ideal world, you would be able to turn on and off audio description
>> just like any other service in the player, such as captioning.
>>
>> You need to be able to get to, and use all the controls from the keyboard.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Wed, Jul 28 2021 9:08AM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

One thing I noticed in the question was the term "proper audio description". There is a lot of "proper audio description" being provided using the suggestions and feedback provided. With "how to" videos, it is even possible to avoid all need of audio description if the script for the "how to" video is done in a certain way (like Shawn suggested.)

You seem to feel your content may be different or you have a desire to try to do more. If you want to go that path, I say go for it! If you have the desire, time, and resources to do that to try to create an optimal user experience, then try it out and see where it leads. Just know that it is not a necessary step that is needed for most video.

If it is possible to share your results, share them. Everything we try is worthwhile since it serves to help us develop our knowledge and experience with potential new accessibility solutions.

Thanks!
Tim Harshbarger

From: Peter Shikli
Date: Thu, Jul 29 2021 4:09AM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | Next message →

To answer a few of the questions and comments in the response posts:

1) You need to fit between the pauses in the dialog.
For when that is possible, of course that's what we'll do, but let's not
focus on solving the easy problem since I can assure you that we have
and will encounter the hard problem. Consider only the problem where an
important scene description cannot fit between pauses. Do we cut out
important info and comply to WCAG level AA, which we would, or can we
comply with a link to an mp3 that makes no compromises on giving the
blind a more equivalent (or at least more useful) experience to the
content of the video.

2) What audio player do we use.
None. AblePlayer is the main one with a built-in audio description
track, but why should we force the blind to load a video file at least
ten times as large as the track with the audio description? The blind
already have mp3 players for podcasts and such. Isn't that the best-fit
player for what the blind need in this case?

3) Why not build the video to need less or even no audio description?
Mainly because our service is to make archived videos accessible. The
producers are long gone. For new videos, we certainly encourage baked-in
accessibility.

Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online Inc.

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Jul 29 2021 5:02AM
Subject: Re: Best Possible Audio Description
← Previous message | No next message

It's not a specific success criterion, but it is in the conformance section:


Conformance level (v 5.2.1):
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#cc1

Understanding conforming alternate versions:
https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance

This is a little less obvious than a specific success criterion,.

On 7/29/21, Peter Shikli < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> To answer a few of the questions and comments in the response posts:
>
> 1) You need to fit between the pauses in the dialog.
> For when that is possible, of course that's what we'll do, but let's not
> focus on solving the easy problem since I can assure you that we have
> and will encounter the hard problem. Consider only the problem where an
> important scene description cannot fit between pauses. Do we cut out
> important info and comply to WCAG level AA, which we would, or can we
> comply with a link to an mp3 that makes no compromises on giving the
> blind a more equivalent (or at least more useful) experience to the
> content of the video.
>
> 2) What audio player do we use.
> None. AblePlayer is the main one with a built-in audio description
> track, but why should we force the blind to load a video file at least
> ten times as large as the track with the audio description? The blind
> already have mp3 players for podcasts and such. Isn't that the best-fit
> player for what the blind need in this case?
>
> 3) Why not build the video to need less or even no audio description?
> Mainly because our service is to make archived videos accessible. The
> producers are long gone. For new videos, we certainly encourage baked-in
> accessibility.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter Shikli
> Access2online Inc.
>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.