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Thread: Intro and question
Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)
From: Beth Hanes
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 10:55AM
Subject: Intro and question
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Hello,
I've been lurking on this list for a little while and have learned a lot
from reading your posts. Thanks!
I've done a little web design in the past, but now I'm responsible for
developing the site for our program at the university, and I'm very
committed to making the site fully accessible. I have much still to learn
on this topic.
In considering accessibility, my first thought was to create one
graphics-intense site (the main site) and one low-graphics site, linking to
the accessible site from the main site.
However, in reading some things on the web about this idea, I discovered
that some people consider this approach demeaning to those who will use the
accessible site--sort of as if one population of web users is restricted to
using a _back door_ to enter the site. Naturally, I do not want to offend
or demean anyone who uses our site.
My ultimate goal is to create a single website that satisfies both the
desire of a visually-oriented population to access a cutting edge website
and the desire of those who are vision impaired or have other accessibility
issues to be able to access the site's content. But that will take me quite
awhile to accomplish (if ever!), and I must get this website built as soon
as possible, as the current site is a disaster from many standpoints, not
the least of which is utter inaccessibility.
Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
two-site approach?
Thank you in advance for any input!
Beth Hanes
Office Manager
University Honors Program
MSC06 3890
1 University of New Mexico
Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001
(505) 277-4213
http://www.unm.edu/~honors
From: Seth Rothberg
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 11:06AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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On Wednesday 23 June 2004 12:58 pm, honorsgurl wrote:
> Can anyone give me some insight as to the feelings of the disabled web
> community about separate, accessible sites? Does this population really
> feel demeaned when using these sites? Would you advise that I avoid the
> two-site approach?
Hi honorsgurl,
In a word, don't do it. Apart from how members of the disabled community might
feel about a separate accessible site, will you be able to guarantee that
your two sites will always contain the same info? When you're no longer
involved, will those who take over from you continue your practices? Will you
always remember to update both sites?
Regards,
Seth
From: Michael Goddard
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 11:20AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have two separate
sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time to maintain and
twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site but not the
secondary site etc.)
I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing a visually
pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you use the
right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browsers support for
and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keep the
presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allows you to
manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correct content
which should transport well within both visual browsers and text based
browsers and readers.
HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face when and if
you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit off topic on
your question.
Michael Goddard
Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW
TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
8153 Garnet Drive
Dayton, OH. 45458
phone: 937.438.3434
fax: 937.438.3453
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com
From: Jill Lenz
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 11:31AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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From another developer's perspective on maintaining two versions . . .
been there, done that. Don't do it.
Follow Michael's advice of using XHTML/CSS. It's the way to go these
days. There's lots of good tutorials out there on the subject.
michael wrote:
> One a side note (from a developer's perspective) if you have two separate
> sites, it is just going to take you twice the amount of time to maintain and
> twice the amount of chance of error (updated page on main site but not the
> secondary site etc.)
>
> I honestly don't see why you would have a problem in developing a visually
> pleasing site that is also steadfast accessible especially if you use the
> right tools and plan ahead. With the majority of the browsers support for
> and rendering of XHTML/CSS being stronger, you will be able to keep the
> presentation separate from content pretty well which in turn allows you to
> manipulate the visual side via CSS and create semantically correct content
> which should transport well within both visual browsers and text based
> browsers and readers.
>
> HTH with giving you some other viewpoints on what you will face when and if
> you choose two separate sites. And apologies for going a bit off topic on
> your question.
>
> Michael Goddard
> Internet Developer/Programmer, CIW
> TDH Marketing & Communications, Inc.
> 8153 Garnet Drive
> Dayton, OH. 45458
> phone: 937.438.3434
> fax: 937.438.3453
> email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> web: http://www.tdh-marketing.com
>
>
>
From: Mary Martinson Grossnickle, Martinson Training
Date: Wed, Jun 23 2004 2:00PM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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Another caution in developing a separate version is that many times the
separate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not the only
disability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" site might
not be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen reader version.
The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.
A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify your decision
*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only Version" in
"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing Accessible
Websites."
"Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,
Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,
Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488
From: Katharine Whitelaw
Date: Thu, Jun 24 2004 9:22AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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Check out the CSS Zen Garden at www.zengarden.com . There are dozens of
beautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you construct
your site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is no
need for two sites.
Katy Whitelaw
>>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >>>
Another caution in developing a separate version is that many times
the
separate version is developed for screen reader users. This is not the
only
disability community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" site
might
not be truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen reader
version.
The site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.
A resource which might help, especially if you need to justify your
decision
*not* to maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only Version"
in
"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing Accessible
Websites."
"Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,
Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael Burks, Paul Bohman,
Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN: 1590591488
From: Rachael Zubal
Date: Thu, Jun 24 2004 9:49AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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Very good example. CSS can be made to allow for a simple, HTML
version without all the work involved. We're working with a new web
designer who has this in mind so that we can make a nice, pleasant looking site
while at the same time making our content completely accessible. the Zen
garden site is amazing, too! I've seen many of the designs and am astouded
by the beauty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Rachael
A. Zubal-RuggieriInformation Coordinator, Center on Human
PolicyCoordinator of Computer & Technical Applications, Early Childhood
Direction CenterEditorial Staff, Mental RetardationSyracuse
University805 South Crouse AvenueSyracuse, NY
13244-2280315-443-2761E-mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = -mail: <A
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <A
href="http://thechp.syr.edu">http://thechp.syr.edu<;A
href="http://ecdc.syr.edu">http://ecdc.syr.edu
"Out of the strain of Doing, into the peace of the Done."--Julia Louise
Woodruff
"I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate
him."--Booker T. Washington>;>;>; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
06/24/04 11:24AM >;>;>;Check out the CSS Zen Garden at <A
href="http://www.zengarden.com/">www.zengarden.com . There are dozens
ofbeautiful and accessible web designs on this site. When you
constructyour site using CSS, separating presentation from content, there is
noneed for two sites.Katy Whitelaw>;>;>;
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 6/23/2004 3:03:14 PM >;>;>;Another caution in
developing a separate version is that many timestheseparate version is
developed for screen reader users. This is not theonlydisability
community who use the web. So a separate "accessible" sitemightnot be
truly accessible, it could end up just being a screen readerversion.The
site might still be inaccessible for other audiences.A resource which
might help, especially if you need to justify yourdecision*not* to
maintain two sites, is "Myth: Just Add a Text-Only
Version"in"Understanding Web Accessibility" in the book "Constructing
AccessibleWebsites.""Constructing Accessible Websites" by Jim
Thatcher, Cynthia Waddell,Shawn Henry, Sarah Swierenga, Mark Urban, Michael
Burks, Paul Bohman,Publisher: APress; Reprint edition (July 14, 2003), ISBN:
1590591488
From: julian.rickards
Date: Thu, Jun 24 2004 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Intro and question
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Recognize that not all of the designs on
CSSZenGarden.com are accessible - some used the FIR technique, colour contrast
may be suspect on some. However, CSSZenGarden.com does show that CSS can be
employed to create wonderful, awe-inspiring designs and, with the avoidance of
some techniques, CSS and HTML can create both accessible content and beautiful
design.
Julian Rickards <FONT
face=Georgia color=#0000ff>A/Digitial Publications Distribution
Coordinator Publication Services
Section, Ministry of Northern
Development and Mines, Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960
<FONT
face=Tahoma>