E-mail List Archives
Thread: question
Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)
From: Nathan Clark
Date: Tue, Apr 12 2022 9:29AM
Subject: question
No previous message | Next message →
How do you tell if a bug in a software application is an issue with
the screen reader, the browser or the developers fault? Thanks.
Sincerely,
Nathan Clark
--
Nathan Clark
QA Automation Analyst Tech team
Accessibility assistant
CPACC
cell: 410-446-7259
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
101 Village Blvd
Princeton, NJ 08540
SMBE & Minority Owned Business
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Apr 12 2022 9:35AM
Subject: Re: question
← Previous message | Next message →
On 12/04/2022 16:29, Nathan Clark wrote:
> How do you tell if a bug in a software application is an issue with
> the screen reader, the browser or the developers fault? Thanks.
Testing in different browser/AT combinations, actually analysing the
underlying code/markup, trawling through various resources like
https://html5accessibility.com/, https://caniuse.com/,
https://a11ysupport.io/, browser/AT bug trackers where available ... and
then the rest is sadly down to experience/intuition.
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Apr 12 2022 10:56AM
Subject: Re: question
← Previous message | Next message →
Agreed. Code inspection is typically the best way to see if the code is
causing the problem (which is usually the case). There are times when the
browser's accessibility tree isn't correct (albeit rarely) and times when
the screen reader is not presenting the accessibility tree correctly (also
fairly rare). I would guess (purely anecdotal) that 99% or higher are
failures in the code. I rarely find a screen reader or browser bug. But I
hesitate to say it's the "developer's fault". Sometimes it comes from the
library that's being used (which I guess you could say is the developer of
the library's fault). Most accessibility coding issues just come from lack
of knowledge and finding whose fault it is is irrelevant.
Sometimes the problem can be because of your screen reader settings. For
example if a particular landmark is not announced, it might not be set to
announce in your verbosity settings. Or if numbers are announced
differently than you expect, it might be a setting or it might be the way
that particular screen reader interprets the numbers.
I did find a recent JAWS bug that was pretty cool. If you have an input
field that has a label (whether via a label element or an aria label) *and*
the input has a placeholder with commas in the text, then the commas were
being escaped with a backslash character in front of them and that
backslash was being announced with the placeholder text.
See https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/500
If you think you found a screen reader bug, check the respective screen
reader's bug list. I don't think Apple makes their bug list public.
JAWS - https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues
NVDA - https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues
From: Natasha Johnston
Date: Thu, Apr 14 2022 1:46AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi there,
I have a question I'd like to ask the forum in the hopes that someone can help.
I work for a visual impairment charity and it's been highlighted to us that when we add pictures to our Word documents the alt text isn't being identified and read out by VoiceOver (only the file name and extension is read). We haven't been able to work out why; our alt text is picked up by JAWS and SuperNova. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Many thanks,
Natasha
Natasha Johnston
Project Lead - Training and Communications
Visibility Scotland
2 Queen's Crescent, Glasgow, G4 9BW
T: 0141 332 4632 M: 0774 832 5201
British Sign Language (BSL) users can contact me by using contactSCOTLAND-BSL<https://contactscotland-bsl.org/reg/>
Contact Visibility Scotland by email<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Visibility Scotland News & Vacancies<https://visibilityscotland.org.uk/category/visibility-news/>
Find us on Twitter and Facebook: @VisibilityScot
Visit the Visibility Scotland website<http://www.visibilityscotland.org.uk/>;
Visibility Scotland is the trading name of GWSSB (formerly Glasgow and West of Scotland Society for the Blind). GWSSB is a company registered in Scotland, limited by guarantee with its registered office at 2 Queens Crescent, Glasgow, being a recognised Scottish Charity. Registered number SC116522. Scottish Charity Number SC009738.
From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Apr 14 2022 2:19AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
There are a number of factors that you have not specified, such as:
* Are you using macOS, iOS or both? There are significant differences between Voiceover on the two platforms.
* Are you opening the documents in Word for Mac, Pages or some other application?
* If you are using Word for Mac, is it the desktop version or the web version?
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
From: Jim Byrne Accessible Web Design
Date: Thu, Apr 14 2022 3:07AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Steve,
I use both MacOS and iOS. I open documents in both Pages and Word but when I write I use Pages - and if I need to - I convert the final version to Word. I use the version of Word that comes with the 365 subscription.
Jim
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:19, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> There are a number of factors that you have not specified, such as:
>
>
>
> * Are you using macOS, iOS or both? There are significant differences between Voiceover on the two platforms.
>
> * Are you opening the documents in Word for Mac, Pages or some other application?
>
> * If you are using Word for Mac, is it the desktop version or the web version?
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
>
>
>
From: Jim Homme
Date: Thu, Apr 14 2022 6:19AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Natasha,
When you enter the alt text, which field do you put the text into? There is an Alt text field and a Title field.
Thanks.
Jim
=========Jim Homme
Senior Digital Accessibility Consultant
Bender Consulting Services
412-787-8567
https://www.benderconsult.com/
Support the dreams of independence through employment for students with disabilities with your Amazon purchases.
https://smile.amazon.com/ch/83-0988251
From: Kian Badie
Date: Thu, Apr 14 2022 4:13PM
Subject: Re: Question on descriptive control labels
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello Pitri,
Thank you very much for your input. It is very helpful! With your advice, I
think I will use the aria-labelledby on the player attribute to point to
the header that describes the section. This seems like it would provide
more of a description since there are multiple audio players on the page.
Or do you think it would be better to label the individual controls with
more context? I would guess labeling the parent player would be more
concise and sufficient. Do you have any preferences on what is more
helpful? I interpreted support for both options in your reply.
Also, if I may add a related question, how should transcripts be
determined? The narration is just the spoken audio of text existing on the
page. But how would one say "hey, this audio has a transcript over there in
this part of the page"? The examples I have seen online just have a section
on the page with a "Transcript" heading. However, I don't think I can add
that heading to my page. Are there other ways to connect the text to the
audio?
Thank you,
Kian Badie
On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 3:33 AM Priti Rohra < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Kian,
>
> With regards to giving context I would suggest text describing the
> media. Yes heading if present can be referenced in the accessible
> name for Play/Pause control via aria-labelledby will give us better
> context about what we'll be playing.
> My thoughts about giving label as "Audio player" or "Video player"
> does suffice the requirement of labelling section/regions but is not
> of any help to the user. Such labels are pretty generic in nature
> whereas giving a descriptive text through hidden heading or labelling
> it via aria-label is a better option as it gives more context to
> users and keeps the content in check.
>
> Always BPositive!
> Priti Rohra
>
>
> On 4/9/22, Kian Badie < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Thank you all very much for the very insightful input!
> >
> > Priti, that is interesting that JAWS does that. From my experience,
> tabbing
> > or arrowing into a native audio element with NVDA unfortunately just
> > announces "play". Good to know that defining a region could be helpful!
> For
> > adding context in the text nearby, are you saying to possibly add some
> text
> > visually that would point out the audio player. Like a heading of sorts?
> >
> > Mark, the heading recommendation is interesting. I have not seen visually
> > hidden headers before! If the slight redundancy is worth better overall
> > accessibility, I will consider that! Would you please be able to expand
> on
> > the naming the player strategy. Is this different from adding a label
> > either through aria-label or a visually hidden label?
> >
> > I am also curious what everyone thinks of the labeling the player itself?
> > Would "audio player" be good, or should it be more specific to what it
> is?
> > Like "page section - audio player", where "page section" is the section
> of
> > the page that the audio pertains to?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kian Badie
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 8:06 AM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> Mark,
> >> I am saving your discussion for future reference. I will need it.
> >> Meanwhile, I have been studying a custom player example at the Mozilla
> >> Developers Network.
> >>
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Guide/Audio_and_video_delivery/cross_browser_video_player
> >> The page has an example that uses the figure element as the player
> >> container and figcaption to label it. So far, my experiments indicate
> that
> >> JAWS announces the player when I navigate by tab or arrow keys.
> >> Just wondering what you think.
> >>
> >> Jeff Gutsell
> >>
> >>
From: jp Jamous
Date: Fri, Apr 15 2022 7:15AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Natasha,
What version of Word is this?
If it is 2016 or Office 365, are you making sure that the "Decorative" check box is not checked?
----------------------------------------
Jepelsy LLC.
JP Jamous | Digital Accessibility Consultant | CEO
W: (952) 666-2930
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
----------------------------------------
From: Jerra Strong
Date: Fri, Apr 15 2022 9:25AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
This could be outdated, but as I recall from testing, if the image is
"Inline with text" it will be read by all screen readers, but those that
are "floating" on top of text will have their alt text read by JAWS when it
gets to an anchor, but not by NVDA. Might that be what you are running
into?
On Fri, Apr 15, 2022 at 6:16 AM jp Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Natasha,
>
> What version of Word is this?
> If it is 2016 or Office 365, are you making sure that the "Decorative"
> check box is not checked?
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Jepelsy LLC.
> JP Jamous | Digital Accessibility Consultant | CEO
>
> W: (952) 666-2930
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
>
From: Geethavani.Shamanna
Date: Tue, Apr 19 2022 4:37AM
Subject: Re: Question on descriptive control labels
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Kian,
When there are multiple audio players with transcripts on a page, it would be useful to use the Show/Hide Transcript button to display transcripts in each of the audio players. These buttons will be displayed when the concerned audio is in focus.
I have come across pages with multiple audio activities, and the players are often not appropriately labelled. I would be interested in a practical solution to deal with this issue. One solution would of course be to embed each of these players within an iFrame, and then appropriately label the iFrames.
I have also come across instances where the Transcript button is embedded within the media player. On clicking the Transcript button, the screen reader reads out the entire transcript. However, since the screen reader automatically switches to the Application mode when navigating the media player, it is not possible to read through the transcript line by line or sentence by sentence. Purely from an accessibility perspective, is it good practice to disassociate the transcript button from other media player controls and make the transcript available outside the media player?
Many thanks.
Geetha
From: Nathan Clark
Date: Tue, Apr 19 2022 10:48AM
Subject: Re: question about presenting with screen reader
← Previous message | Next message →
Dear list,
For my fellow screen reader users if you are giving a demo about
accessibility what speaking rate to you keep your screen reader at? Do
you keep at your personal speaking rate that you are used to or do you
slow it down? Thanks.
Sincerely,
Nathan Clark
--
Nathan Clark
QA Automation Analyst Tech team
Accessibility assistant
CPACC
cell: 410-446-7259
email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
101 Village Blvd
Princeton, NJ 08540
SMBE & Minority Owned Business
--
Webinar Registration - Zoom
<https://us06web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_WbuXZTdNSXms0DaYM15zCA>
From: mbullis
Date: Tue, Apr 19 2022 10:51AM
Subject: Re: question about presenting with screen reader
← Previous message | Next message →
I start mine out at my usual speed and then I slow it down so they can understand it. I tell them that I couldn't understand it that fast at first either but with practice they too could understand it.
Michael Bullis
Executive Director,
The IMAGE Center of Maryland
Direct phone: 443-275-9394
Mainâ410-982-6311
Cell:443-286-9001
Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Website: www.imagemd.org
Address
300 E. Joppa RD, Suite 312
Towson MD 21286
Donate to our Impact Fund
http://weblink.donorperfect.com/Covid-19LIFELINEIMPACTFUND
https://smile.amazon.com/ch/27-2774275
From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Apr 19 2022 11:00AM
Subject: Re: question about presenting with screen reader
← Previous message | Next message →
It depends what the presentation is for. If you want to demo a screen
reader to those not familiar with it, definitely slow it down. If you are
using a screen reader for your notes or are navigating a site to find a
particular part of the site, running at your normal speed is fine and is a
good demo in and of itself to show people how it works.
It also depends on the audience. Native English speakers might be able to
handle a speaking rate that is a little faster than normal English. But
those who have English as a second (or third) language might need the speed
slower than typical speech.
Accents also matter. If my audience is solely Chinese or Indian, sometimes
I run the screen reader in English but with a Chinese or Indian accent to
hopefully make it a little easier to understand. But oftentimes the
audience is very mixed so I just use plain English (possibly with British
or American accent) at a slower pace.
From: Bossley, Peter (TR Product)
Date: Tue, Apr 19 2022 11:19AM
Subject: Re: [EXT]question about presenting with screen reader
← Previous message | Next message →
I agree with what Glen says below. If I want the audience to be able to understand what the screen reader is saying, most times I have to slow it down significantly from where I normally keep the speed.
Of course if I am not using it for demo purposes, I don't share the screen reader audio with the meeting.
From: Natasha Johnston
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 2:16AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Jerra and JP,
Thank you both for your suggestions.
I'm using Office 2016. There isn't a "mark as decorative" checkbox as there is with Office 365; I do however have the option to add a title and description. I add my alt text to description and leave the title box blank; not sure if that could be the problem.
I've double-checked and the images are in-line with text.
Many thanks,
Natasha
From: Natasha Johnston
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 2:19AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks Steve,
We have a group of volunteers who check our documents for us to help us improve accessibility; two of them use Voiceover and have both feedback the same issue. I will check the details below with them and come back to you.
Many thanks,
Natasha
From: Natasha Johnston
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 2:28AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Jim,
I add my alt text to the alt text field only; I leave the title box blank. Could that be the issue?
Thanks,
Natasha
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 3:36AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
No, you are doing what you are supposed to do.
Steve
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 3:39AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
If you want to send me the Word document, I would be happy to see if I can work out what is happening.
Steve
From: jp Jamous
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 5:44AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | Next message →
Yes, add the same description in the Title field and that should make it work with Voiceover.
What you will find out is that JAWS users will benefit from the Title field if they are setting focus on the images using CTRL + Shift + o.
I have witnessed this defect in the past and made it a habit to fill out both fields with the same alternative text.
From: Natasha Johnston < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2022 3:16 AM
To: Jerra Strong < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; jp Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Question for forum
Hi Jerra and JP, Thank you both for your suggestions. I'm using Office 2016. There isn't a "mark as decorative" checkbox as there is with Office 365; I do however have the option to add a title and de
External ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >)
INKY is learning...<https://protection.inkyphishfence.com/report?id=bmV0b3JnZnQxMDM2OTU1NC9qcEBqZXBlbHN5LmNvbS82MDYwOTY3NTc4NWNlZjM4Mjk3MzRlMmJhMTA1N2I1My8xNjUwNDQyNTcyLjc4#key3d408e03ce260e48b301571f5acfcb> Report This Email<https://protection.inkyphishfence.com/report?id=bmV0b3JnZnQxMDM2OTU1NC9qcEBqZXBlbHN5LmNvbS82MDYwOTY3NTc4NWNlZjM4Mjk3MzRlMmJhMTA1N2I1My8xNjUwNDQyNTcyLjc4#key3d408e03ce260e48b301571f5acfcb> FAQ<https://www.inky.com/banner-faq> GoDaddy Advanced Email Security, Powered by INKY<https://www.inky.com/protection-by-inky>
Hi Jerra and JP,
Thank you both for your suggestions.
I'm using Office 2016. There isn't a "mark as decorative" checkbox as there is with Office 365; I do however have the option to add a title and description. I add my alt text to description and leave the title box blank; not sure if that could be the problem.
I've double-checked and the images are in-line with text.
Many thanks,
Natasha
From: Natasha Johnston
Date: Wed, Apr 20 2022 5:55AM
Subject: Re: Question for forum
← Previous message | No next message
Fantastic, thanks JP. Appreciate your help.
Natasha
From: jp Jamous [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: 20 April 2022 12:44
To: Natasha Johnston < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Jerra Strong < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Question for forum
Yes, add the same description in the Title field and that should make it work with Voiceover.
What you will find out is that JAWS users will benefit from the Title field if they are setting focus on the images using CTRL + Shift + o.
I have witnessed this defect in the past and made it a habit to fill out both fields with the same alternative text.
From: Natasha Johnston < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2022 3:16 AM
To: Jerra Strong < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>; jp Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>; WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Question for forum
Hi Jerra and JP,
Thank you both for your suggestions.
I'm using Office 2016. There isn't a "mark as decorative" checkbox as there is with Office 365; I do however have the option to add a title and description. I add my alt text to description and leave the title box blank; not sure if that could be the problem.
I've double-checked and the images are in-line with text.
Many thanks,
Natasha