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From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Tue, Jul 12 2022 9:29PM
Subject: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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All,

I have a request from one of our developers how to apply role="presentation" to a PDF document. From my research this appears not possible. The documents being created are dynamic in nature and the developer is creating a template. The table is being used for laying out information. Yes, might not be the best approach, but this is what we are working with.

How can you simulate the role=presentation approach available in HTML for tables?
Does anyone have development documentation to achieve this functionality?


Any help here would be greatly welcomed.

Regards
Sean Murphy

Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917

Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and belonging is having that voice be heard

Submit an Engagement Accessibility form<https://confluence.tools.telstra.com/display/A11Y/Digital+Accessibility+Home>
Accessibility Single Source of Truth<https://confluence.tools.telstra.com/display/A11Y/Digital+Accessibility+Home>

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 4:06AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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Sean
If I was doing it manually, I'd just pull out the table related tags and
tag the content as appropriate, such as paragraphs and lists. The ability
to do this outside of Adobe comes down to the tool you are using to make
the pdfs.

--
Ryan E. Benson

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022, 11:30 PM Murphy, Sean via WebAIM-Forum <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> All,
>
> I have a request from one of our developers how to apply
> role="presentation" to a PDF document. From my research this appears not
> possible. The documents being created are dynamic in nature and the
> developer is creating a template. The table is being used for laying out
> information. Yes, might not be the best approach, but this is what we are
> working with.
>
> How can you simulate the role=presentation approach available in HTML for
> tables?
> Does anyone have development documentation to achieve this functionality?
>
>
> Any help here would be greatly welcomed.
>
> Regards
> Sean Murphy
>
> Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
> Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
> Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917
>
> Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and
> belonging is having that voice be heard
>
> Submit an Engagement Accessibility form<
> https://confluence.tools.telstra.com/display/A11Y/Digital+Accessibility+Home
> >
> Accessibility Single Source of Truth<
> https://confluence.tools.telstra.com/display/A11Y/Digital+Accessibility+Home
> >
>
> > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 5:21AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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There's nothing like role="presentation" in PDFs. As Ryan says, you're going to have to re-tag the content, one tag at a time.

What I have wanted for years is a way to record and replay sequences of actions to make this sort of thing much faster. We were able to do that 15 years ago with Acrobat 7 because the Tags and Content panels were keyboard accessible. We bought a keystroke recorder that emulated a keyboard, and the efficiency improvement was staggering.

For instance, it took just a few seconds to create a list with all the <LI>, <Lbl> and <LBody> tags, or a table with all the <TH> tags, including "scope" attributes. You then had to drag all the content into the appropriate tags, but that was trivially easy.

Sadly, the Tags panel hasn't been keyboard accessible since Acrobat 8 (which is unforgivable), so the keystroke recorder technique no longer works. In principle, some other method of automation should be possible, but it would need to be able to programmatically interact with the Tags panel and would be much more complex if it's even possible at all.

Does anyone know if there is a way to record and replay sequences of actions such as changing the selected tag type or adding attributes to it? I had hoped that Acrobat's Action Wizard would do that, but it looks like it performs actions on entire documents, not individual tags.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 5:21AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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It's hard to say without seeing the table, but I agree - pulling the tags
out of the table and changing to either headings and paragraph tags, or
list tags is what I often do with layout tables.

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 11:30 PM Murphy, Sean via WebAIM-Forum <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> All,
>
> I have a request from one of our developers how to apply
> role="presentation" to a PDF document. From my research this appears not
> possible. The documents being created are dynamic in nature and the
> developer is creating a template. The table is being used for laying out
> information. Yes, might not be the best approach, but this is what we are
> working with.
>
> How can you simulate the role=presentation approach available in HTML for
> tables?
> Does anyone have development documentation to achieve this functionality?
>
>
> Any help here would be greatly welcomed.
>
> Regards
> Sean Murphy
>
> Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
> Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
> Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917
>
> Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and
> belonging is having that voice be heard
>
> Submit an Engagement Accessibility form<
> https://confluence.tools.telstra.com/display/A11Y/Digital+Accessibility+Home
> >
> Accessibility Single Source of Truth<
> https://confluence.tools.telstra.com/display/A11Y/Digital+Accessibility+Home
> >
>
> > > > >


--
Best regards,
Laura Roberts
413-588-8422

From: chagnon
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 8:12AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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As others have said, pull every tag out of the <Table> structure tags.

But the best solution is to go back to the source file and remove the table there. If in Word, select the table and convert it to text, and then style it appropriately for the tags.

And get the original content creator trained in how to make accessible documents. There's no good excuse today to let this type of crap into documents.

—Bevi
— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
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PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
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Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

From: Karen McCall
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 8:12AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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The other problem is when people use nested tables. If you have a document where tables have been used for design layout but the overall table is interrupted by nested data tables, all bets are off for developing an automated tool that can distinguish those nuances.

BTW, I agree about the lack of keyboard support in the Acrobat UI.

Cheers, Karen

From: chagnon
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 8:14AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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There is no Aria anything in the PDF standard.

— Bevi Chagnon
US Delegate to the ISO PDF and PDF/UA standards

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 8:21AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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> There is no Aria anything in the PDF standard.

This is not true. PDF 2.0 (ISO 32000-2) includes support for ARIA attributes on structure elements.

See clause 14.8.5.2.

Duff.

From: chagnon
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 8:29AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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But Duff, there is no PDF/UA-2. Yet.

So I'll correct my original statement to read:
There is no Aria anything in the current PDF/UA-1 standard.

Don't want people confused about the differences between the main PDF standard and the PDF/UA, PDF/A, PDF/X, etc. micro-standards (or subsets) that create targeted standards for different types of PDFs used for different purposes.

—Bevi

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 8:35AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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> But Duff, there is no PDF/UA-2. Yet.

That's right.

> So I'll correct my original statement to read:
> There is no Aria anything in the current PDF/UA-1 standard.

Yes, PDF/UA-1 is based on PDF 1.7, which does not include support for ARIA attributes.

PDF 2.0, however, published in 2017 and updated in 2020, does include support for ARIA attributes.

> Don't want people confused about the differences between the main PDF standard and the PDF/UA, PDF/A, PDF/X, etc. micro-standards (or subsets) that create targeted standards for different types of PDFs used for different purposes.

I agree; that's why I wanted to clarify that "the PDF standard” at this time DOES support ARIA… but to your point I neglected to also mention that PDF/UA (at this time) does not.

The fact that PDF/UA has not yet caught up to PDF 2.0 shouldn't stop anyone from supporting ARIA in a PDF 2.0 context.

Thanks, Bevi!

Duff.


>
>

From: chagnon
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 3:59PM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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Duff wrote: "The fact that PDF/UA has not yet caught up to PDF 2.0 shouldn't stop anyone from supporting ARIA in a PDF 2.0 context."

Ha Ha! Love your humor, Duff!

1: No document software at this time gives the content creator the ability to add ARIA to the content. That capability isn't in Word, PowerPoint, Adobe InDesign, or any of the online word processing programs A F A I K.

2: No conversion utility that exports a PDF from a document file (such as Adobe PDF Maker, FoxIt, etc.) builds ARIA into the PDF.

3: Acrobat does not have any tool or method for adding ARIA to an existing PDF.

And 4: ARIA isn't well supported right now by our assistive technologies, and most A T users don't even know it exists.

So there's a lot that prevents the industry from supporting ARIA in PDF documents. No tools, but lots of time and money to produce something of little value at this time. That's not a sane model.

Going back to the original post about being able to add the ARIA "Presentation" label to a layout table: If we could, it would nullify the entire table structure and the contents, which is not what is needed.

Instead, we need a way to artifact the table tags and structure while retaining the content in the table and their <P> <L> and other individual element tags.

Adobe could build that utility into Acrobat or a third-party could develop a plug-in to do that task, but I don't hear of anyone putting that utility on their to-do list.

No matter what the standards state, it will be a while before ARIA becomes viable in PDFs. Maybe the PDF Association, the trade association for all things PDF www.pdfa.org, could advise the industry on ARIA in PDF/UA-2.

— signed, Not Holding My Breath

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Jul 13 2022 7:54PM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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> Duff wrote: "The fact that PDF/UA has not yet caught up to PDF 2.0 shouldn't stop anyone from supporting ARIA in a PDF 2.0 context."
>
> Ha Ha! Love your humor, Duff!

Yeah…. I should have made clear that I was referring to software developers… NOT end-users!

Duff.

From: Murphy, Sean
Date: Thu, Jul 14 2022 1:34AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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Steve, thanks for this info. I will bring it up with the PO from Adobe in relation to the lack of keyboard access.


Can you give me the full name of the product and version, so I have the right info.

Regards
Sean Murphy

Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917

Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and belonging is having that voice be heard

Submit an Engagement Accessibility form
Accessibility Single Source of Truth

From: Steve Green
Date: Thu, Jul 14 2022 1:44AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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Sean, which product are you referring to?

Steve

From: Sherman, Joseph
Date: Fri, Jul 15 2022 11:06AM
Subject: Re: PDF Tagging - layout tables.
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Hi all,
The Adobe Plug-In Commonlook PDF (paid) has a command to "linearize (layout) tables". This takes all the cells and puts them into <P> tags, generally in the correct order. I have found it to be helpful.

Joseph