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Thread: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 5
Number of posts in this thread: 9 (In chronological order)
From: Saravanan K
Date: Tue, Jul 05 2022 10:14PM
Subject: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 5
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Dear Friends,
I am in need of shortcut keys in eclipse, inteli j idea & pg admin for
using java & postgresql.
Is these platform's are fairly accessible with screen readers.
can anybody help me in accessing them with screen readers.
Regards.
Saravanan.K
+91 9916512402
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From: John Butterfield
Date: Sat, Jul 16 2022 2:42PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 15
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Sent from Proton Mail for iOS
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> 1. Re: google docs accessibility (TJ McElroy)
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From: Pyatt, Elizabeth J
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 12:07PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
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I would add the lang="ja" tag.
Technically speaking Japanese is written in four scripts and "rÅmaji" is one of them. In English mode, some screen readers may not know what to do with a vowel with a macron on top.
You can also send a test file to the student if they are willing to check it. The student will need to install a Japanese voice on the screen reader, but that's gotten a lot easier.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.
Best
Elizabeth
P.S. Having worked with a Spanish course, I can attest that having Spanish read out with an English voice is not sufficient for the learner.
On Jul 26, 2022, at 2:00 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
From: Murray Inman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
Date: July 25, 2022 at 9:11:10 PM EDT
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
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Friendly greetings!
In an introductory Japanese course, there are several places where Japanese
words are written out using "rÅmaji" which basically is the
pronunciation of the word written out using Roman characters. For example,
The Japanese word *ãã¼ãå* would be written as *rÅmaji*.
Would the best practice, both semantically and accessibility -wise, be to
add the lang="ja" attribute to a wrapper <span> element? HTML code example:
<span lang="ja">rÅmaji</span>
My thinking is that yes, it should have the lang attribute because it is a
Japanese word. Anyone have any experience with the accessibility aspects of
this?
Thank you for your help!
Murray
Murray Inman
Manager, Instructional Media and Accessibility
VP, Ability Maricopa Employees with Disability Advocacy Group
480-517-8561 | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
RIO SALADO COLLEGE | https://riosalado.edu<https://riosalado.edu/>
2323 West 14th Street, Tempe, AZ 85281
Definition of "Accessible" <http://learnatrio.com/accessibilityDefined>; by
the Office for Civil Rights
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Accessibility IT Consultant/Lead Trainer
Penn State IT Accessibility
Office of the Deputy CIO
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > (General accessibility questions)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
25 Shields Building
University Park, PA 16802
https://accessibility.psu.edu
From: Andrew Barnett
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 2:43PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
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Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?
On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 12:00 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of WebAIM-Forum digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: PDF column tag (Alan Zaitchik)
> 2. Re: PDF column tag (Murphy, Sean)
> 3. Re: PDF column tag (Murphy, Sean)
> 4. Re: PDF column tag (Duff Johnson)
> 5. Best practice for language markup (Murray Inman)
> 6. Re: Best practice for language markup (glen walker)
> 7. Re: Best practice for language markup (Peter Weil)
> 8. Re: Best practice for language markup (jp Jamous)
> 9. ISO guidance/standard for alt text, text alternative
> (Karen McCall)
> 10. Re: ISO guidance/standard for alt text, text alternative
> (Duff Johnson)
> 11. Accessible PDFs from Microsoft SSRS? (Alan Zaitchik)
> 12. Guidance on the audio presentation of text in videos,
> including captions, subtitles and other on-screen text (Karen McCall)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "Murphy, Sean" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 14:59:39 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
> I think it's worth adding that using table structures for âpresentationâ
> purposes only, rather than for expressing data relationships, violates
> Matterhorn 15-004 and will prove inconvenient for screen reader users.
> Are you truly stuck with the tables?
> Alan Zaitchik
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Murphy, Sean" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 23:00:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
> Alan,
>
> We are uplifting a legacy system that generates PDF files via a Java
> program. I have conversations with the team today on this and will share.
>
> Regards
> Sean Murphy
>
> Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
> Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
> Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917
>
> Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and
> belonging is having that voice be heard
>
> Submit an Engagement Accessibility form
> Accessibility Single Source of Truth
>
>
From: chagnon
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 3:34PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
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Yes, but it's rare.
A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but its owner.
In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and is not a deep-fake or knock-off.
So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used in repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different sections of the webpage or document.
Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I can make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page is decorative â that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of sighted users.
In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the information from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and discoverable by A T.
In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole of confusion and misunderstanding.
So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either Alt Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
That's my 2 cents.
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
â â â
Latest blog-newsletter â Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
From: Kevin Prince
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 3:51PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
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Interesting comment Bevi - in the ideal world of graphic design I can see how decorative is unhelpful. In the real world where people throw up a stock image because the template needs one many are clearly âdecorative' in the English meaning of the word. In the same way we are now starting to see our agency advice considering whether some of those background twiddles are decorative or whether , for example, Maori design is being consciously used to evoke a connection to the land. In that case a decorative border is more than decorative.
The key for our thinking is to ask why that image was chosen and what it conveys â if it conveys something then it is not decorative and the visual message is required for screen readers. Particularly with the indigenous designs this is an interesting debate â and often it is not something that is necessarily pointed out to sighted users but we still feel it should be included in the ALT text.
My journey around this started some years ago working on a women's health site with a changing sidebar telling different women's stories. At first I though the portrait to be decorative but as I watched the richness of the images changing I realised an important message from the images was that the site was for all women, pakeha, maori, pasifika, Asian and all ages. I changed my advice and insisted on descriptive alt text
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 9:35 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.
Yes, but it's rare.
A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but its owner.
In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and is not a deep-fake or knock-off.
So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used in repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different sections of the webpage or document.
Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I can make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page is decorative â that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of sighted users.
In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the information from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and discoverable by A T.
In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole of confusion and misunderstanding.
So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either Alt Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
That's my 2 cents.
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
â â â
Latest blog-newsletter â Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant
Foster Moore
A Teranet Company
E = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Christchurch
fostermoore.com
From: Laura Roberts
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2022 11:36AM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
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Bevi, I read elsewhere on WebAIM that it's unnecessary to use the word
"logo" in the alt text. I've always found this confusing.
On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:35 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yes, but it's rare.
>
> A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos
> are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but its
> owner.
>
> In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help
> authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and is
> not a deep-fake or knock-off.
>
> So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live
> with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
>
> All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used in
> repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different
> sections of the webpage or document.
>
> Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
> It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I can
> make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page is
> decorative â that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of
> sighted users.
>
> In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
> The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the information
> from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and
> discoverable by A T.
>
> In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term
> "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole
> of confusion and misunderstanding.
>
> So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either Alt
> Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
>
> That's my 2 cents.
>
> â â â
> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> â â â
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> â â â
> Latest blog-newsletter â Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
>
>
From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2022 1:49PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
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Yes, in general you don't need to say "image of...", "picture of...", "logo
of..." because the screen reader is already going to announce that it's an
image or graphic, but there are situations where it might be helpful.
With regards to logos, if there's a legal reason for saying so, as Bevi
mentioned, perhaps for copyright purposes, then saying "logo" might be
required or strongly encouraged by your legal department.
If I'm on a museum site and there is a mixture of paintings and photos,
then I might want to hear "painting of..." or "picture of..."
But for images used in buttons or links, you generally don't want/need the
"image of".
On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 11:37 AM Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Bevi, I read elsewhere on WebAIM that it's unnecessary to use the word
> "logo" in the alt text. I've always found this confusing.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:35 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Yes, but it's rare.
> >
> > A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos
> > are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but
> its
> > owner.
> >
> > In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help
> > authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and
> is
> > not a deep-fake or knock-off.
> >
> > So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live
> > with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
> >
> > All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used
> in
> > repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different
> > sections of the webpage or document.
> >
> > Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
> > It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I
> can
> > make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page
> is
> > decorative â that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of
> > sighted users.
> >
> > In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
> > The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the
> information
> > from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and
> > discoverable by A T.
> >
> > In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term
> > "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole
> > of confusion and misunderstanding.
> >
> > So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either
> Alt
> > Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
> >
> > That's my 2 cents.
> >
> > â â â
> > Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > â â â
> > PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> > consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> > Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> > â â â
> > Latest blog-newsletter â Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
> >
> >
From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2022 2:36PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
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I agree with Glen (mostly). As a screen reader user I am alerted that something is a "graphic". I don't need to know it's a photo of, image of, portrait of,etc. because that is built in to screen reader technology. It just becomes cognitive overload for assistive technology users to add that extra verbiage in alt text.
However, regarding a "logo", I think that it's possible to describe logo images in a meaningful way. Personally I think that the designers who create logo's should be the folks responsible for creating the alt text of the image; they know what their intent was when they created the logo. I've seen some really meaningful alt text on logo's.
If the designer is no longer available to create the alt text, or someone else is responsible for the copy, then "Company XYZ logo" is enough alt text for me. I tend to skip over the graphic of the logo and wonder what is visually intriguing but I, even though I might try, can't control their workflow.
Basically, if someone doesn't care enough to describe their logo then I let it go. I'm not in control.
Cheers,
David