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From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 4:39PM
Subject: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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Hello,

If there is a better place to send this, please let me know. I am
developing a web application to work with Jaws.

I am wondering how to remove the strange lag with Jaws sending keys to an
application and Jaws failing to clear aria live region text from its
buffer? On our application site:

https://www.audiom.net/embed/6?apiKey=b_e0xbMW4_hk9tDtOYMrZ

1. Using Jaws, arrow down to “Audio Map On” and hit enter. This will
pop you into application mode. Now hit backslash “” and it will use your
screen reader rather than web TTS.

2. Now press the down arrow repeatedly. There is a 50-100ms delay
between each key press that vanishes when using NVDA or no screen reader.

3. Go to coordinate 35, 17 on the “long ramp” and quickly repeatedly
arrow to the right until the sound changes. You will hear “long ramp” still
announced when you hear the sound change when using Jaws (if you press the
right arrow fast enough). Using web TTS or NVDA, there is no problem
clearing the buffer, and you hear "empty space" right away.



I'm wondering if you have any ideas on how to resolve these usability
issues with Jaws in a browser application?

Our Jaws users are quite unhappy with these bugs, and I don't know how to
resolve them, especially since they are not present outside of Jaws. I'm
using Jaws 2023 in the latest stable version of Chrome.

Thank you,


Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 5:45PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or the other - it's always both.

NVDA works fine.

What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 5:48PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 5:50PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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I also found that issue.
However, as I said in my last email, JAWS seem to be OK, however the web TTS voice had a significant delay.

Dino

617-799-1162

Dino's Canteen 1618
11 Eglin St,
Hanscom AFB
Bedford, MA

> On Feb 14, 2023, at 7:45 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or the other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
>

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 8:00PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
It sounds like the objects menu opened when you hit enter in the
application. Try hitting escape, then pressing backslash. You don't want
any menus open when you hit backslash.
It's an application specific command.
Thanks,



Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and the
> latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web TTS
> read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or the
> other - it's always both.
>
> NVDA works fine.
>
> What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
>

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 8:05PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
Thank you for those checks, they are unrelated to the application
experience. They are wrong aria being applied in the Mapbox component
that's on the visual only experience at the bottom on the page.
Thanks,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 4:50 PM = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I also found that issue.
> However, as I said in my last email, JAWS seem to be OK, however the web
> TTS voice had a significant delay.
>
> Dino
>
> 617-799-1162
>
> Dino's Canteen 1618
> 11 Eglin St,
> Hanscom AFB
> Bedford, MA
>
> > On Feb 14, 2023, at 7:45 PM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > The backslash key doesn't do anything on my machine with JAWS 2021 and
> the latest Chrome. When I arrow through the list I hear JAWS and the web
> TTS read each item, but at different speeds. I can't get it to use one or
> the other - it's always both.
> >
> > NVDA works fine.
> >
> > What is the backslash key supposed to do when it is passed through to
> JAWS? It doesn't appear to be a standard JAWS command.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> >

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Feb 14 2023 11:12PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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Now I understand and I can hear the difference between JAWS and NVDA. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make JAWS work the same as NVDA because they handle queued changes to the live region differently. JAWS queues all the changes and announces them all, which is why it says "long ramp" after you have moved to an empty space. By contrast, NVDA announces the most recent change and dumps all the previous ones. That is a desirable behaviour in your application, but it is not in some others. It would be nice if the author could control this behaviour, but it is not possible.

The ARIA 1.1, 1.2 and draft 1.3 specifications for live regions says "User agents or assistive technologies MAY choose to clear queued changes when an assertive change occurs. (e.g., changes in an assertive region may remove all currently queued changes)", so both JAWS and NVDA meet the specification in the case of an assertive region.

Curiously, the specification does not say what should happen to queued changes in polite regions, which is what you are using. Perhaps the specification authors thought it was obvious that the queued changes should all be announced since they are not time critical. If that is the case, NVDA's behaviour is incorrect. But we don't know because the specification doesn't say and it doesn't look like there are plans for it to do so.

Steve

From: tim.harshbarger
Date: Wed, Feb 15 2023 5:00AM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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You should be able to fix the second problem by using a debounce function for writing messages to the live region.

While the user is pressing keys quickly and repeatedly, the debounce function will prevent any messages from being written to the live region until the user pauses longer between key presses. This won't alter how NVDA currently speaks the information while preventing the JAWS speech queue from loading up with old messages it has to process.

It is something I have used for character counters.

Thanks!
Tim

From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Feb 15 2023 6:51AM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application ElementUsing Aria Live Regions
← Previous message | Next message →

That sounds like it will work, but the debounce period will introduce a delay between pressing a key and hearing the speech for all screen reader users. It's worth experimenting, but you may find that the delay annoys even more people.

Steve

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Thu, Feb 16 2023 7:07PM
Subject: Re: Resolving Lag With Jaws in an HTML Application Element Using Aria Live Regions
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Yesterday's JAWS 2023 release included some changes to live region handling with ARIA Atomic. It would be interesting to know if this helps.
Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Feb 15, 2023, at 8:51 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> That sounds like it will work, but the debounce period will introduce a delay between pressing a key and hearing the speech for all screen reader users. It's worth experimenting, but you may find that the delay annoys even more people.
>
> Steve
>
>
>