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Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)

From: Nibin Mathew (SO/OPM33-IN)
Date: Thu, Mar 09 2023 2:02AM
Subject: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.
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Hello all,
Thanks much for the useful resources and recommendations as reply to my PPT related query last week.

One of the unexpected behaviours I have observed from the PPT accessibility check and fix, there are differences in reading the slide content order by JAWS and NVDA after making changes on the reading order. How does it happen that both the screen readers are fetching data through the same accessibility API right? Should I change any option or any settings in PPT or Screen reader to fix it?
Also, while reading the slide using JAWS, it is even announcing that the decorative images present little gibberish which are already marked as decorative. which may be an annoying experience.

Do any of you have a similar experience on PPT?
What are the possible ways to fix it?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

Mathew Nibin

Design Factory (SO/OPM33-IN)
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From: David Farough
Date: Thu, Mar 09 2023 6:47AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the samePPT slide.
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What version of Jaws were you using?
In the most recent version, the Reading order discrepancies appear to have been addressed.
I have noticed that the issues I experienced were no longer occurring.
I was noticing that regardless of the reading order, that any slide containing 1 or more tables, that the tables would be read following the title for the slide.
See the text for the What's new document for this version that mentions this fix.
You will find it under the other options heading.
In PowerPoint, resolved an issue where JAWS was not correctly respecting the reading order of slide content as defined by the author.
Thanks
David Farough
Application Accessibility Coordinator
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From: Steve Green
Date: Fri, Mar 10 2023 10:22AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the samePPT slide.
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PowerPoint has two different reading orders, so you need to specify which one you are talking about. The Selection Pane controls the reading order for the PowerPoint file. There is also a Reading Order Pane, which you access via Review > Check Accessibility. This controls the reading order in PDFs created from the PowerPoint file.

According to some notes I made a year or so ago, the reading order you get in the PDF is not necessarily the order you specified. Shapes, images, titles and subtitles are always read before any text. I have not tested this again recently.

When using JAWS and NVDA to read the PowerPoint slides, they behave exactly the same when I use the Selection Pane to change the reading order. The Reading Order Pane that I mentioned above has no effect when reading the PowerPoint slides.

When reading the slides in PowerPoint's Normal view, decorative images have to be announced by screen readers because you are in editing mode and you may want to change some property of the image. If the image was not announced, how could you find it? Decorative images are not announced in Reading View.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Sherman, Joseph
Date: Fri, Mar 10 2023 12:17PM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the samePPT slide.
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Hi,

So for an accessible PowerPoint and PDF, one must check both the Reading Order Pane (top to bottom) and the Selection Pane (bottom to top) to make sure they both are correct? It would be nice if there was only one order Pane for both.

Joseph

From: Steve Green
Date: Fri, Mar 10 2023 5:01PM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the samePPT slide.
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Yes, that's right. I don't know why there are two reading orders, nor why one reads from top to bottom and the other from bottom to top. Or why they are in completely different parts of the menu structure. Sadly, this is nowhere near the most incomprehensible aspect of PowerPoint accessibility.

Steve

From: nick
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2023 2:51AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.
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The two panels are linked - if you move an item in one pane it moves it correspondingly in the other. The Selection pane controls the visual layering of content on a slide. Content at the bottom of this pane appears on the bottom layer of the slide - this is the same layering when you use the commands 'Send to Back', 'Bring Forwards', etc, in the Shape Format > Arrange menu. Anything on a higher layer will overlap it visually and be read by screen readers after. If you develop a slide where laying of content is important, i.e. you want some items to appear on top of other items for a certain visual effect, this link can sometimes cause problems.

In terms of Reader View, one thing I noted is you get a different experience depending on your screen reader. In Normal View, both JAWS and NVDA (and probably others) ignore content that's pulled through from slide masters, but in Reader View JAWS does read slide master content whereas NVDA does not. So not only does this mean that some users will either miss out on potentially important content or hear unimportant content (like repeated footer copyright information), but the reading order may also be affected by the presence of slide master content. For users who are viewing a third-party presentation (i.e. not editing their own) I don't know how common Reader View is compared with Normal View (would be good to hear about any data on this), but it's something to consider when thinking about slide design and the structure of your content.


Nick

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2023 7:03AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.
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This is really interesting. I am certain the two reading orders were not linked when I did my tests a couple of years ago, but I can see they are linked now. It would actually make more sense if they were not linked, then you could avoid the laying issue you describe.

There is a further twist. The reading order in Normal view is not necessarily the same as the reading order in Reading View or Slideshow. I found that in the Reading View or Slideshow shapes, images, titles and subtitles are always read before any text, regardless of the reading order in Normal view. I just verified this again.

Steve

From: nick
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 2:08AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.
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So it seems there's no obvious way to guarantee a consistent reading order for users as it depends on their view mode and screen reader. I'm going to be working on some PowerPoint files with a client in the next few weeks with the aim of creating guidance for content creators, so will do some additional testing on reading order as part of that.

Nick

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 2:36AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.
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To avoid this sort of problem, I am increasingly using hidden text rather than Alt Text for images.

With enough research it should be possible to create a list of do's and don'ts that result in a consistent user experience. However, with your comments about Slide Master content and footers, two or more screen readers, three viewing modes in PowerPoint and two in the PDF it seems that an awful lot of research will be required.

I'm going to work on this and ensure I keep better records than I did previously.

Steve

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 6:05AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for thesame PPT slide.
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There are two things you can do to prevent JAWS from reading the "eye candy" on the slide masters.

1. Mark all graphics on the slide master as "decorative".
2. Use the Selection Pane or Reading Order Pane...preferably the Reading Order Pane since it allows you to add Alt Text or mark as decorative as you go...to ensure the logical reading order on the slide when in Normal slide view.

I've tested this with JAWS and if the graphics on the slide master are marked as decorative, I don't hear them in slide show view which is what I think you are calling reding view? If they aren't marked as decorative, I hear the Alt Text.

A third thing to do is to order the last items on the slide and/or slide master so that the first thing you come across AFTER the main content is the slide number. After the slide number, add any copyright, date or other information including repeating logos on the slide canvas. This way, when we come across the slide number, we can skip to the next slide without having to re the repetitive information on every slide.

I would say that this is a bug in JAWS. We shouldn't hear anything that is on the slide master in terms of graphics. We use slide masters to create the background bling and eye candy along with some visual effects that create the slide template. None of the information, including bordered placeholders, fill and other information should be available in Normal or Slide Show view...only in Slide Master view. We still have access to it, we just need to go into Slide Master view. When I teach accessible PowerPoint, we spend a lot of time in Slide Master view so that it is a familiar place to "visit".

Cheers, Karen

From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 6:05AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for thesame PPT slide.
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Marking the graphics on the slide master as decorative helps any adaptive technology with the same sort of bug.

Cheers, Karen

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Mar 14 2023 6:22AM
Subject: Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for thesame PPT slide.
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Reading View and Slideshow are two different things. If you right click on them, you get significantly different menu options, although there are some common features. Reading View has a title bar and a status bar that contains various buttons. Slideshow is full screen and has some buttons in the bottom left corner. The biggest difference is that Slideshow supports the Presenter View that can be displayed on a second monitor.

I have not done exhaustive testing, but so far it looks like the two views behave the same with respect to screen readers.

Steve