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Thread: Audio description and captions
Number of posts in this thread: 27 (In chronological order)
From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 4:19AM
Subject: Audio description and captions
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This may be a silly question. In short, if an audio described version of a video is provided, do the captions need to include the audio description? Logic suggests not, but it creates an anomaly thus:
If a video includes important visual content, there are a couple of options:
1. Include the important visual content in the audio track. The requirement for the captions seems to be clear - WCAG SC 1.2.2 requires them to include all the audio content, even when it is describing the visual content. The only exception is "when the media is a media alternative for text and is clearly labeled as such", which clearly doesn't apply.
2. Create a separate audio described version of the video.
* The captions for the non-audio described version of the video just need to contain the information in the audio track.
* What about the captions for the audio described version of the video? WCAG does not appear to require that the audio description is included in the captions. Or does it? It doesn't make sense to include it because it's describing the visual content. But this is inconsistent with the first scenario above, which effectively has the same audio content.
For the purposes of this discussion I am only interested in WCAG conformance because I am writing pass / fail guidance for testers. The user experience is important, but it's a separate discussion.
Regards,
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
020 3002 4176 (direct)
0800 612 2780 (switchboard)
07957 246 276 (mobile)
020 7692 5517 (fax)
Skype: testpartners
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www.testpartners.co.uk<;http://www.testpartners.co.uk>;
Connect to me on LinkedIn - http://uk.linkedin.com/in/stevegreen2
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 4:33AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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On 29/01/2024 11:19, Steve Green wrote:
> This may be a silly question. In short, if an audio described version of a video is provided, do the captions need to include the audio description?
While it may seem redundant, I'd say the easiest interpretation is that
yes, all AD content should also be captioned - if something's spoken
(regardless of whether it's the original video's audio, or additional
AD), caption it, as I don't think there's enough normative text that
would warrant a more nuanced "but surely the AD is redundant since they
can see the visuals" logical exemption (though I may be wrong?)
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
* https://www.splintered.co.uk/
* https://github.com/patrickhlauke
* https://flickr.com/photos/redux/
* https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke
From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 4:40AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Thanks, Patrick. Anyone have a contrary view?
Steve
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 4:45AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Incidentally, this reminded me to file this thing that annoyed me for
ages... https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3661
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
* https://www.splintered.co.uk/
* https://github.com/patrickhlauke
* https://flickr.com/photos/redux/
* https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke
From: Karen McCall
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 5:47AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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I've been trying to find out an answer to what might be a similar question.
This has more to do with videos that are in a different language.
You would have the "subtitle" track with a translation into another language. For example, if the film's spoken words were in Spanish and the "subtitles" were in English.
This would not be classified as captions because I would imagine that the captions would reflect the Spanish spoken words.
What does WCAG say about dubbed or subtitled multimedia?
I would imagine that the video description would be in the "subtitle" track as the "subtitle" or translated track should be available to those who need/want it.
Is there a mechanism to choose whether someone wants captions or subtitles/video descriptions?
I am often at a loss in understanding plots when languages change in films/multimedia and I don't have access to hearing the subtitle text.
Cheers, Karen
From: J. B-Vincent
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 6:03AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Not exactly contrary, but if the AD is optional it would be ideal to give users the ability to choose between captions with and without AD included. For example, some neurodivergent individuals benefit from a close 1:1 correlation between audio and visual. If they have AD turned off but are seeing it in the captions, that could be confusing.Â
--Jane Vincent, University of Michigan
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 06:40:44 AM EST, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
Thanks, Patrick. Anyone have a contrary view?
Steve
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 6:15AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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In the context of WCAG conformance, if an audio-described version of a video is provided, the captions for the audio-described version do not need to include the audio description. The captions should focus on conveying the spoken content while the audio description serves to describe the visual elements. This approach maintains consistency with WCAG requirements and ensures accessibility for users who rely on captions and audio descriptions.
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Jan 29, 2024, at 6:20 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> This may be a silly question. In short, if an audio described version of a video is provided, do the captions need to include the audio description? Logic suggests not, but it creates an anomaly thus:
>
>
>
> If a video includes important visual content, there are a couple of options:
>
>
>
> 1. Include the important visual content in the audio track. The requirement for the captions seems to be clear - WCAG SC 1.2.2 requires them to include all the audio content, even when it is describing the visual content. The only exception is "when the media is a media alternative for text and is clearly labeled as such", which clearly doesn't apply.
>
> 2. Create a separate audio described version of the video.
>
> * The captions for the non-audio described version of the video just need to contain the information in the audio track.
>
> * What about the captions for the audio described version of the video? WCAG does not appear to require that the audio description is included in the captions. Or does it? It doesn't make sense to include it because it's describing the visual content. But this is inconsistent with the first scenario above, which effectively has the same audio content.
>
>
>
> For the purposes of this discussion I am only interested in WCAG conformance because I am writing pass / fail guidance for testers. The user experience is important, but it's a separate discussion.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve Green
>
> Managing Director
>
> Test Partners Ltd
>
> 020 3002 4176 (direct)
>
> 0800 612 2780 (switchboard)
>
> 07957 246 276 (mobile)
>
> 020 7692 5517 (fax)
>
> Skype: testpartners
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> www.testpartners.co.uk<;http://www.testpartners.co.uk>;
>
>
>
> Connect to me on LinkedIn - http://uk.linkedin.com/in/stevegreen2
>
>
> > > >
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 6:20AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Karen
In the context of WCAG, subtitles and captions serve different purposes:
1. **Subtitles** typically provide a transcription or translation of the dialogue or spoken content in a video. These are meant for viewers who may not understand the language spoken in the video or for those who need clarification.
2. **Captions**, on the other hand, aim to convey not only the spoken dialogue but also any other relevant audio information such as sound effects or music cues, making the content accessible to people who are deaf or hard of hearing.
WCAG does not specifically differentiate between subtitles and captions in terms of conformance requirements. However, providing both subtitles and captions can enhance accessibility and user experience for a broader audience.
As for your question about choosing between captions and subtitles/video descriptions, it depends on the platform or video player being used. Some platforms allow users to select their preferred language for subtitles or audio tracks. However, this feature may not be universally available across all platforms or videos.
To address your personal difficulty in understanding plots when languages change in films/multimedia, having access to both subtitles and audio descriptions can significantly improve comprehension, especially if you're not familiar with the spoken language. It's worth exploring platforms or video services that offer customizable accessibility features to better meet your needs.
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Jan 29, 2024, at 7:47 AM, Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I've been trying to find out an answer to what might be a similar question.
>
> This has more to do with videos that are in a different language.
>
> You would have the "subtitle" track with a translation into another language. For example, if the film's spoken words were in Spanish and the "subtitles" were in English.
>
> This would not be classified as captions because I would imagine that the captions would reflect the Spanish spoken words.
>
> What does WCAG say about dubbed or subtitled multimedia?
>
> I would imagine that the video description would be in the "subtitle" track as the "subtitle" or translated track should be available to those who need/want it.
>
> Is there a mechanism to choose whether someone wants captions or subtitles/video descriptions?
>
> I am often at a loss in understanding plots when languages change in films/multimedia and I don't have access to hearing the subtitle text.
>
> Cheers, Karen
From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 6:23AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Thanks, Dean. WCAG SC 1.2.2 states that captions must include all audio content. Where have you seen an exception for audio description? I can't find one. Our interpretation has got to be based on the normative text and supporting documentation - we can't ignore them or invent new requirements.
Steve
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 6:59AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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On 29/01/2024 13:23, Steve Green wrote:
> Thanks, Dean. WCAG SC 1.2.2 states that captions must include all audio content. Where have you seen an exception for audio description? I can't find one. Our interpretation has got to be based on the normative text and supporting documentation - we can't ignore them or invent new requirements.
Interestingly, this prompted me to dig a bit deeper, and to my surprise,
found something (though they clearly buried the lede here):
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-captions
NOTE 6
Audio descriptions can be, but do not need to be, captioned since they
are descriptions of information that is already presented visually.
That should really be surfaced much better in the current understanding
documents...
Related, found his, but that was clearly just scoped to "a silent movie"...
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/audio-only-and-video-only-prerecorded.html
Note
A text equivalent is not required for audio that is provided as an
equivalent for video with no audio information. For example, it is not
required to caption video description that is provided as an alternative
to a silent movie.
So, it does seem that there's a get-out clause for AD, just that WCAG
buried it in the definition for captions...
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
* https://www.splintered.co.uk/
* https://github.com/patrickhlauke
* https://flickr.com/photos/redux/
* https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke
From: Nick Bromley
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 7:06AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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The 'Intent' for 1.2.2 sets a precedent of sorts for not needing captions for content that has an alternate presentation: "Captions are not needed when the synchronized media is, itself, an alternate presentation of information that is also presented via text on the Web page."
So, playing devil's advocate, you could argue that not providing captions for audio description follows the same logic. You have one type of visual content (video) with a media alternative (audio description) so no need to have another visual version of that audio content (caption text).
From a general usability perspective there are benefits to captioning AD (e.g. for users with a visual processing impairment), but the intent states the criterion is for "deaf or hard-of-hearing users to watch synchronised media presentations".
So I'd be tempted to pass a video who's AD isn't captioned, but would suggest best practice is to include full captions.
From: Karen McCall
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 7:15AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Thanks, that what I thought.
I also thought that in the UK subtitles are captions so the language gets fuzzy depending on where you are.
I don't think, but will investigate, that the major streaming companies (Apple TV+, Disney + or Netflix provide this option. I think if you choose subtitles, it replaces the caption text but is not accessible in terms of reading the subtitles to you.)
Cheers, Karen
From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 7:48AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Thanks Patrick, that's exactly what I was looking for.
Steve
From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 8:03AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Thanks, Nick. That's going to be my recommendation based on the definition Patrick found and everyone else's comments.
Steve
From: Hayman, Douglass
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 9:00AM
Subject: Re: - Audio description and captions
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Steve,
When I worked at DO-IT and Accessible Technology Services at the University of Washington we tended to put out two videos. One had a closed captions option and the other was audio described.
And as part of the team promoting closed captions, when we'd get videos to send off to our caption vendor we might order both closed captions and audio description. If memory serves me right, the audio described ones didn't come with captions.
I could imagine a number of personas who would be the audience including a person who was deaf-blind and needing both the closed caption stream and the audio description.
It was tricky to do audio description if there was lots of audio already throughout the video as it meant injecting a burst of description in between the already present audio which was a bit jarring of an experience. So often our productions, if planned out well, allowed for both visual framing of space at the bottom of the screen for closed captions to appear later, but also space in the audio realm for audio description. Better yet was making a point of the people speaking in the video to do like what is recommended in presentations like,
"As you can see in this next chart, we've gone from 20-percent profits in the 1st year to 30-percent profits the following year." Thereby, not needing to fix things later with wedging in some audio description for that portion of the video.
The closed caption vendor/audio description vendor had an option with ordering audio description to pick an extended setting. And putting in audio description in some videos calls on decision makers to perhaps freeze a frame while the long description plays out before unfreezing and moving on with the video.
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
From: Dax Castro
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Yeah, I do not agree. You do not need an accommodation for the accommodation. Audio Descriptions are there for people who cannot see what is happening on screen. If you have vision, you can see what is going on and therefore audio descriptions are not required. In fact, WCAG 1.2.2 talks about this exception.
Thanks,
Dax Castro, ADS
Certified Digital Accessibility Trainer
Accessibility Advocate & Trainer | IAAP
www.accessibilityunraveled.com
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 9:24AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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On 29/01/2024 16:20, Dax Castro wrote:
> Yeah, I do not agree. You do not need an accommodation for the accommodation. Audio Descriptions are there for people who cannot see what is happening on screen. If you have vision, you can see what is going on and therefore audio descriptions are not required. In fact, WCAG 1.2.2 talks about this exception.
Where in 1.2.2 does it talk about this exception, specifically?
P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
* https://www.splintered.co.uk/
* https://github.com/patrickhlauke
* https://flickr.com/photos/redux/
* https://mastodon.social/@patrick_h_lauke
From: Dax Castro
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 10:20AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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Currently there are no platforms that allow for synchronized audio descriptions. Basically it is like only being able to have Open Captions on a video. You either burn them into the video and have a video for each language or a transcript alternative.
It is our hope that one day YouTube will allow for the capability to supply audio descriptions as a user selectable feature. We have been lobbying for it for several years.
Thanks,
Dax Castro, ADS
Certified Digital Accessibility Trainer
Accessibility Advocate | IAAP
www.accessibilityUnraveled.com
From: Hayman, Douglass
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 10:38AM
Subject: Re: - Audio description and captions
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Able Player offers more than YouTube as a way for users to toggle on audio descriptions, closed captions, and even a breakout ASL window if created by the authors.
Examples:
https://ableplayer.github.io/ableplayer/demos/
Doug Hayman
IT Accessibility Coordinator
Information Technology
Olympic College
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(360) 475-7632
From: Dax Castro
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 10:50AM
Subject: Re: - Audio description and captions
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Very Cool! Thanks Doug!
Dax
From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 11:10AM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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I was told at CSUN 2012 that AD on YouTube was actively being worked on,
and coming soon. I wouldn't hold your breath too much.
--
Ryan E. Benson
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024, 12:21 PM Dax Castro < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Currently there are no platforms that allow for synchronized audio
> descriptions. Basically it is like only being able to have Open Captions on
> a video. You either burn them into the video and have a video for each
> language or a transcript alternative.
>
> It is our hope that one day YouTube will allow for the capability to
> supply audio descriptions as a user selectable feature. We have been
> lobbying for it for several years.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dax Castro, ADS
> Certified Digital Accessibility Trainer
> Accessibility Advocate | IAAP
> www.accessibilityUnraveled.com
>
>
>
From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 10:13PM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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I've found that, on Netflix, if you are playing a title with the audio description track enabled and you don't have an iOS device in a locked state, you hear the audio description and the subtitles. Often the audio description and the subtitles are the same. Probably depends on the vendor who did the work to audio describe and subtitle it and/or how you have your subtitles setting setup on your device.
Cheers,
David
From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Mon, Jan 29 2024 10:24PM
Subject: Re: - Audio description and captions
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Those were my thoughts too, Doug.
Plus, AblePlayer offers an interactive transcript that weaves the audio description, captions, and I suspect subtitles together so the deafblind have equal access to the same information that all other humans have.
Thanks,
David
From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Jan 31 2024 12:34PM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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In my view, yes. Audio description should be in voice and captions. Plus,
it should be in the text transcript for people who are Deaf-Blind. I go
beyond WCAG, so others may have different views that only fit WCAG.
Cheers
Lisa
On Mon, Jan 29, 2024 at 7:19 AM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> This may be a silly question. In short, if an audio described version of a
> video is provided, do the captions need to include the audio description?
> Logic suggests not, but it creates an anomaly thus:
>
>
>
> If a video includes important visual content, there are a couple of
> options:
>
>
>
> 1. Include the important visual content in the audio track. The
> requirement for the captions seems to be clear - WCAG SC 1.2.2 requires
> them to include all the audio content, even when it is describing the
> visual content. The only exception is "when the media is a media
> alternative for text and is clearly labeled as such", which clearly doesn't
> apply.
>
> 2. Create a separate audio described version of the video.
>
> * The captions for the non-audio described version of the video
> just need to contain the information in the audio track.
>
> * What about the captions for the audio described version of the
> video? WCAG does not appear to require that the audio description is
> included in the captions. Or does it? It doesn't make sense to include it
> because it's describing the visual content. But this is inconsistent with
> the first scenario above, which effectively has the same audio content.
>
>
>
> For the purposes of this discussion I am only interested in WCAG
> conformance because I am writing pass / fail guidance for testers. The user
> experience is important, but it's a separate discussion.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve Green
>
> Managing Director
>
> Test Partners Ltd
>
> 020 3002 4176 (direct)
>
> 0800 612 2780 (switchboard)
>
> 07957 246 276 (mobile)
>
> 020 7692 5517 (fax)
>
> Skype: testpartners
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> www.testpartners.co.uk<;http://www.testpartners.co.uk>;
>
>
>
> Connect to me on LinkedIn - http://uk.linkedin.com/in/stevegreen2
>
>
> > > > >
From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Fri, Feb 09 2024 2:01PM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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I think the answer is no. The intended audience for each service is intended for a different audience and there isn't much cross-over. Think about how best to serve your audience -- not just how to conform to the standard.
Dave
From: Dean.Vasile
Date: Fri, Feb 09 2024 2:56PM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
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My opinion on this matter, is that as a screen, reader, user audio descriptions work for me for the visual content, and I do not believe that the captions need to have the description in them, however having said that, I definitely do believe that the transcript should have the descriptions in it as most people are reading the transcript without actually seeing the video
Dean Vasile
617-799-1162
> On Feb 9, 2024, at 4:01 PM, Andrews, David B (DEED) via WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I think the answer is no. The intended audience for each service is intended for a different audience and there isn't much cross-over. Think about how best to serve your audience -- not just how to conform to the standard.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
From: Mallory
Date: Fri, Feb 09 2024 10:21PM
Subject: Re: Audio description and captions
← Previous message | No next message
Hm. People who use captions expect captions to be captions and do captioning--and remember that sometimes there's a lot of spoken text, sounds and music that need to be in those captions. Sometimes it's hard to read fast enough (and I'm a regular caption user and feel I'm used to it and do pretty well). AD is, sorry, a superbuttload of text. Even if your video is "simple" enough that you can keep to sticking to 2 lines (3 max!) of text at a time and even if the text is rolling, do you then need to go twice as fast in replacing that text because it's the AD (which by necessity is wordy as hell)? We already can't do much for caption users who are slow/poor readers. Having the captions BE the AD makes that problem worse. Or you can make twice the work and have two captions: real captions and AD captions. I don't like that idea but I'm sure there's content out there that would benefit from it. There's always something weird in the world.
I agree and like the mention earlier of transcripts including what's mentioned in the AD, although that does deviate from the "traditional" use of transcripts and may make it closer to a screenplay, but fully agree with the idea that a transcript including the AD text allows the video's full information be accessible via transcript.
On Fri, Feb 9, 2024, at 10:01 PM, Andrews, David B (DEED) via WebAIM-Forum wrote:
> I think the answer is no. The intended audience for each service is
> intended for a different audience and there isn't much cross-over.
> Think about how best to serve your audience -- not just how to conform
> to the standard.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>