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Thread: web access keys
Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)
From: johnorourke1951
Date: Sun, Aug 14 2005 10:08PM
Subject: web access keys
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Good Day List Members:
I'd be interested in various opinions relating to the following subject. Does anyone have thoughts or perspectives concerning the implementation of web access keys? I'm considering suggesting web access keys for a site I'm consulting with:
http://www.clickandpledge.com. This site is for associations, alumni groups, political candidates (ETC) to accept donations and pledges. I'm consulting on the implementation on the site accessibility. Any opinions, pro or con will be most welcome. Thank you.
John O'Rourke
From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Sun, Aug 14 2005 10:08PM
Subject: Re: web access keys
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johnorourke1951 wrote:
> I'd be interested in various opinions relating to the following
> subject. Does anyone have thoughts or perspectives concerning the
> implementation of web access keys?
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskey
--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
re
From: L
Date: Mon, Aug 15 2005 6:00AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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John O'Rourke wrote:
"Does anyone have thoughts or perspectives concerning the implementation of web access keys?"
This article may be helpful:
http://www.nomensa.com/resources/articles/access-keys.html
Regards,
L
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Mon, Aug 15 2005 6:20AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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L
From: Glen Bracegirdle
Date: Mon, Aug 15 2005 8:20PM
Subject: web access keys
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Hi
I was just wondering is there a way to make the access
key take the person to the page without them having to
press Enter to go to the link.
Thanx
GLen
Web Site: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gbnet/
Glen Bracegirlde
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
E-mail 2: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
E-mail 3: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Sites:
Web Site: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gbnet/
Blogs:
Personal Blog: http://gbrace.blogspot.com
Tech Blog: http://gbnettech.blogspot.com
Web Site Update Blog: http://wobblyeyes.blogspot.com
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From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Aug 15 2005 8:40PM
Subject: Re: web access keys
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Glen Bracegirdle wrote:
> I was just wondering is there a way to make the access
> key take the person to the page without them having to
> press Enter to go to the link.
Note that some browsers like Firefox actually do activate links
instantly, rather than just setting the focus on them.
However, merely setting the focus is the default behaviour in browsers
such as IE. You should not attempt to break the browser's default
behaviour, as breaking convention goes against the user's expectations.
In short: don't do it (IMHO of course)
--
Patrick H. Lauke
___________
re
From: Glen Bracegirdle
Date: Mon, Aug 15 2005 9:00PM
Subject: Re: web access keys
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Thanx for that feedback.
Glen
Glen Bracegirlde
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
E-mail 2: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
E-mail 3: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Sites:
Web Site: http://members.optusnet.com.au/gbnet/
Blogs:
Personal Blog: http://gbrace.blogspot.com
Tech Blog: http://gbnettech.blogspot.com
Web Site Update Blog: http://wobblyeyes.blogspot.com
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
From: Jan Eric Hellbusch
Date: Tue, Aug 16 2005 1:40AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Hi Glen,
> I was just wondering is there a way to make the access
> key take the person to the page without them having to
> press Enter to go to the link.
>
> Thanx
I use a JavaScript, for example the one on http://2bweb.de for MSIE. The
script is called keypress.js and can be included so that only MSIE uses it
(see code in HTML on the mentioned page).
A page which uses a bit more accesskey is www.barrierefreies-webdesign.de.
For example, by using Alt+2 (MSIE/Mozilla) you will always get to the next
page - a "replacement" for the not supported LINK element in MSIE. Alt+3
gets you to the previous page.
Regs
Jan
--
Jan Eric Hellbusch
Tel.: 02 31 / 2 25 15 73 oder 01 63 / 3 36 99 25
.biz: http://2bweb.de
.info: http://bf-w.de
From: Jan Eric Hellbusch
Date: Tue, Aug 16 2005 5:20AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Hi JF,
> Then of course there is the whole issue of actually using accesskeys in
> the first place:
The discussion on whether accesskeys are useful or not can also be found on
http://2bweb.de/accesskey
BUT: another German language document :-)
The main use of accesskey in the Accesskey-Pad is to replace the missing
LINK functionality in MSIE. Otherwise I do agree, accesskey is not the best
to use on a Web site.
Regs
Jan
--
Books on accessible web design:
www.barrierefreies-webdesign.de/buecher.php
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Tue, Aug 16 2005 5:40AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Jan Eric Hellbusch wrote:
> Hi Glen,
>
>> I was just wondering is there a way to make the access
>> key take the person to the page without them having to
>> press Enter to go to the link.
>>
>> Thanx
>
>
> I use a JavaScript, for example the one on http://2bweb.de for MSIE.
> The script is called keypress.js and can be included so that only
> MSIE uses it (see code in HTML on the mentioned page).
>
> A page which uses a bit more accesskey is
> www.barrierefreies-webdesign.de. For example, by using Alt+2
> (MSIE/Mozilla) you will always get to the next page - a "replacement"
> for the not supported LINK element in MSIE. Alt+3 gets you to the
> previous page.
>
> Regs
> Jan
Glena and Jan,
Then of course there is the whole issue of actually using accesskeys in
the first place:
Using Accesskeys - Is it worth it?:
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeys/19
More reasons why we don't use accesskeys:
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyconflicts/37
Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations:
http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38
Link Relationships as an Alternative to Accesskeys:
http://www.wats.ca/articles/accesskeyalternatives/52
The Future of Accesskeys:
http://www.wats.ca/articles/thefutureofaccesskeys/66
For your consideration...
Cheers!
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Tue, Aug 16 2005 6:00AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Jan Eric Hellbusch wrote:
> The discussion on whether accesskeys are useful or not can also be
> found on
>
> http://2bweb.de/accesskey
>
> BUT: another German language document :-)
>
> The main use of accesskey in the Accesskey-Pad is to replace the
> missing LINK functionality in MSIE. Otherwise I do agree, accesskey
> is not the best to use on a Web site.
Jan,
Nobody argues with the idea behind accesskey, and it's usefulness. But
given the sad state of affairs, and the potential for confusion and/or
conflict with various adaptive technologies, why bother. Even the W3C
has given up on them - accesskeys is slated to be deprecated in XHTML 2,
in favor or the new <access> element and role attribute.
(http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050527/mod-role.html#s_rolemodule
)
So... Based on the existing issues, and looking forward to the future, I
still advocate that developers should stop using accesskeys altogether.
Cheers!
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 1:40AM
Subject: Re: web access keys
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Good day John (and hello to everyone else),
8 of the 21 Web sites listed below use Access Keys.
I don't know if it was a Deliberate decision by the 13 Web sites to not use Access Keys.
Also, I don't know if the Web sites made their decision of using, or not using Access Keys either by (or a combination of):
1) user Testing,
2) common Practice,
3) following Guidelines.
(WAI have decided not to use Access Keys.
http://www.w3.org/WAI/sitehelp.html)
Personally, I find Access Keys very convenient. I just wish the Web masters would display the Access Key next to (adjacent) the links. Doing so would also spread Awareness to the public.
Also, Access Keys would be a good way to prevent mouse arm fatigue and RSI (repetitive strain injuries). I have a feeling that this is a more common and a greater concern than that some people having (some?) difficulty finding/accessing links. User surveys will show us the answer.
The intended audience for the Web site is, of course, also a factor to take into consideration.
Why not check with yourself: How would your use of a mouse affect your health for, say, the next 30 years? How big a share would Web Access Keys account for?
A note: The Firefox browser has a function that allows the user to type the first letters of a link (or a word) to focus on it.
(I don't have any disabilities, and I use the Firefox on Windows XP.)
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
*
Below 8 Web Sites Use Access Keys:
Accessify.com
http://www.accessify.com/
AFB, American Foundation for the Blind
http://www.afb.org/
Dive Into Accessibility
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/
Cabinet Office
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk
GAWDS, Guild of Accessible Web Designers
http://www.gawds.org/
NCBI, National Council for the Blind
http://www.ncbi.ie/
University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk/
Vision Australia Foundation
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/
*
Below 13 Web Sites Don't Use Access Keys:
ALA, A List Apart
http://www.alistapart.com
CAST, Center for Applied Special Technology
http://www.cast.org/
IBM Accessibility Center
http://www-306.ibm.com/able/
ICDRI, International Center for Disability Resources on the Internet
http://www.icdri.org/
Jim Thatcher.com
http://www.jimthatcher.com/
NFB, National Federation of the Blind
http://www.nfb.org/
RNIB, Royal National Institute of the Blind
http://www.rnib.org.uk/
Section 508.gov
http://www.section508.gov/
Soaring Eagle Communications
http://www.webaccessibility.biz/
WebAIM
http://www.webaim.org/
WAI, Web Accessibility Initiative
http://www.afb.org/
WaSP, The Web Standards Project
http://www.webstandards.org/
WATS.ca, Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca/
----- Original Message -----
From: "johnorourke1951"
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005
>
> Good Day List Members:
>
> I'd be interested in various opinions relating to the following
> subject. Does anyone have thoughts or perspectives concerning the
> implementation of web access keys? I'm considering suggesting web
> access keys for a site I'm consulting with:
> http://www.clickandpledge.com. This site is for associations,
> alumni groups, political candidates (ETC) to accept donations and
> pledges. I'm consulting on the implementation on the site
> accessibility. Any opinions, pro or con will be most welcome.
> Thank you.
>
> John O'Rourke
--
Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
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From: L
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 3:00AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
"Personally, I find Access Keys very convenient."
I'm sure you wouldn't find them as convenient if they frequently overrode your keyboard only access to menu functions and navigational areas of the browser :-)
"Also, Access Keys would be a good way to prevent mouse arm fatigue and RSI (repetitive strain injuries)."
Although this *may be the case for mouse arm fatigue, replacing repetetive mouse clicking action with repetetive key press action is not a long term solution for RSI.
Reviewing posture, sitting position, keyboard and mouse peripherals and making adjustments are far more likely to offer resolution.
Regards,
L
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 8:40AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
> Good day John (and hello to everyone else),
>
> 8 of the 21 Web sites listed below use Access Keys.
OK Thomas - 10 of the 12 following websites don't use accesskeys:
www.microsoft.com
www.apple.com
www.firefox.com
www.google.com
www.yahoo.com
www.altavista.com
www.slashdot.com
www.cnn.com
http://europa.eu.net (European Union official web site)
http://hem.bredband.net/thojed/index.htm (heh heh heh)
These 2 do:
www.us.gov [1]
www.w3c.org [2]
[1] at the US.gov site, they've fouled up, in that accesskey="f" has
actually been assigned to two separate hyperlinks!!!
<snip>
Check our <a accesskey="f" href="http://answers.firstgov.gov"
title="frequently asked questions">frequently asked questions</a>, <a
accesskey="f"
href="http://answers.firstgov.gov/cgi-bin/gsa_ict.cfg/php/enduser/ask.ph
p" title="email FirstGov">email FirstGov</a>,...
<snip>
Also, (and perhaps more importantly) it should be noted that the
keystroke combination of ALT+F (and yes, I know that this is a Windows
only instruction, but let's move on...) is also used virtually
everywhere to open the "File menu"... BUT, if you try and do that at the
us.gov site, it takes you to the "Ask your Question" page. This clearly
and dramatically illustrates how broken accesskeys really are!! I wonder
if anybody has ever complained to the official web site of the world's
largest government...
[2] at the W3C, they use the following accesskeys (information collected
using Gez Lemon's excellent Accesskey Companion -
http://juicystudio.com/article/access-key-companion.php):
Activities: [A] - except in IE 5.5/6, plus adaptive technologies
that use the IE browser or engine (JAWS, WindowEyes, IBM HPR) this
*should* open your favorites folder, except at the W3C site - Oops...
Technical Reports: [T] - In most mainstream browsers, this is
supposed to open the "Tools" dialogue, in HomePageReader it is the
shortcut for Table Navigation, and in the laptop configuration for JAWS,
it is supposed to "Speak the Title of the Current Window" - except at
the W3C site of course (Oops again...)
Site Index: [S] {conflict exists}
New Visitors: [N] {conflict exists}
About W3C: [B] {MAJOR conflict exists}
Join W3C: [J] {conflict exists}
Contact W3C: [C] {conflict exists}
Unknown: [E] (it actually puts the focus into the search text
input) {MAJOR conflict exists}
Go: [G]
... Do I really need to go on?
Accesskeys are broken - the W3C is deprecating them, let's collectively
dump them into the waste-pile that already houses <blink> and <marquee>
and move on shall we?
>
> I don't know if it was a Deliberate decision by the 13 Web sites to
> not use Access Keys.
I *know* that at least for 2 of them, it was:
http://www.wats.ca
http://www.webaccessibility.biz/
And *suspect* that at the following it was deliberate:
http://www.alistapart.com
http://www.jimthatcher.com/
http://www.webaim.org/
http://www.afb.org/
http://www.webstandards.org/
>
> Also, I don't know if the Web sites made their decision of using, or
> not using Access Keys either by (or a combination of):
>
> 1) user Testing,
> 2) common Practice,
> 3) following Guidelines.
(or perhaps by reviewing our humble little chart:
http://wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38)
>
> (WAI have decided not to use Access Keys.
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/sitehelp.html)
Hmmm... I wonder what that means...
>
> Also, Access Keys would be a good way to prevent mouse arm fatigue
> and RSI (repetitive strain injuries). I have a feeling that this is a
> more common and a greater concern than that some people having
> (some?) difficulty finding/accessing links. User surveys will show us
> the answer.
Is this statement fact or supposition?
Thomas, the idea behind accesskeys is and remains a laudable goal - the
current implementation is horrid and usually causes more problems than
it solves (see above). They were never bought into by the majority of
developers (for, I argue, good reason) and to continue to try and
advocate them now is to continue advocating a flawed feature of HTML.
We as developers owe more to our audience then trying to guess how they
interact with their systems. It's just plain wrong.
Cheers!
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053
From: Austin, Darrel
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 9:20AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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> GAWDS, Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
Whoa. Corniest Acronym Ever.
;o)
Interesting site, though. I like their RSS aggregator.
(Sorry for drifting OT...)
-Darrel
From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 9:40AM
Subject: Re: web access keys
← Previous message | Next message →
> > GAWDS, Guild of Accessible Web Designers http://www.gawds.org/
>
> Whoa. Corniest Acronym Ever.
>
> ;o)
>
> Interesting site, though. I like their RSS aggregator.
Having spent a lot of my youth in Knight's armour and running around
castles I always twitch when I read the word "guild" in connection
with anything web. Corny hits the spot. Nice site though.
--
Chris Heilmann
Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com
Writing: http://icant.co.uk/
Binaries: http://www.onlinetools.org/
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 11:00AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca"
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005
>
> OK Thomas - 10 of the 12 following websites don't use accesskeys:
>
> www.microsoft.com
> www.apple.com
> www.firefox.com
> www.google.com
> www.yahoo.com
> www.altavista.com
> www.slashdot.com
> www.cnn.com
> http://europa.eu.net (European Union official web site)
> http://hem.bredband.net/[removed] (heh heh heh)
>
I wish you would not have linked to my Web site, as its purpose is not to display my coding techniques, which is evolving.
Also, I do not wish to be made fun of.
/Thomas Jedenfelt
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From: Glenda Watson Hyatt
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 11:20AM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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JF wrote:
>> I don't know if it was a Deliberate decision by the 13 Web sites to
>> not use Access Keys.
>I *know* that at least for 2 of them, it was:
> http://www.wats.ca
> http://www.webaccessibility.biz/
Thanks John! Yes, it was a deliberate decision not to use them. If that
and not including default text in text boxes makes my site "incompliant", oh
well! I'd rather it was accessible and usable than compliant.
But, seriously, haven't we killed accesskeys yet? John, maybe you need to
launch a site killaccesskeys.com or accesskeys-are-dead-buried-and-gone.com.
Cheers,
Glenda
Glenda Watson Hyatt, Principal
Soaring Eagle Communications
Accessible websites. Accessible content. Accessible solutions.
www.webaccessibility.biz
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From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 12:20PM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca"
> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005
>>
>> OK Thomas - 10 of the 12 following websites don't use accesskeys:
>>
>> www.microsoft.com
>> www.apple.com
>> www.firefox.com
>> www.google.com
>> www.yahoo.com
>> www.altavista.com
>> www.slashdot.com
>> www.cnn.com
>> http://europa.eu.net (European Union official web site)
>> http://hem.bredband.net/[removed] (heh heh heh)
>>
>
>
> I wish you would not have linked to my Web site, as its purpose is
> not to display my coding techniques, which is evolving.
>
> Also, I do not wish to be made fun of.
>
> /Thomas Jedenfelt
The point was not to make fun of you, but to illustrate the futility of
accesskeys and the fact that by-and-large they are not used by
developers anyway. The fact that you have not included on your site
them illustrates the point - very pointedly. If I offended you or
insulted you in any way, it was not my intent and I apologize.
JF
From: Thomas Jedenfelt
Date: Wed, Aug 17 2005 1:40PM
Subject: RE: web access keys
← Previous message | Next message →
John,
The coding techniques on my Web site (and pages) is irrelevant for this discussion, because you, the visitor, cannot know if my Web site is coded with my desired or current coding techniques, which, as I said, is evolving. (My Web site was last updated in November, 2003.)
I am not offended or insulted, I just felt bad. You could have asked me why I don't use Access Keys on my personal Web site, rather than laughing at it to make your point.
If you wish to contradict me, I suggest you write me a personal E-mail, and not use WebAIM Forum, as it is off topic.
Regards,
Thomas Jedenfelt
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca"
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005
>
> Thomas Jedenfelt wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Foliot - WATS.ca"
> > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005
> >>
> >> OK Thomas - 10 of the 12 following websites don't use accesskeys:
> >>
> >> www.microsoft.com
> >> www.apple.com
> >> www.firefox.com
> >> www.google.com
> >> www.yahoo.com
> >> www.altavista.com
> >> www.slashdot.com
> >> www.cnn.com
> >> http://europa.eu.net (European Union official web site)
> >> http://hem.bredband.net/[removed] (heh heh heh)
> >>
> >
> >
> > I wish you would not have linked to my Web site, as its purpose is
> > not to display my coding techniques, which is evolving. Also, I
> > do not wish to be made fun of.
> >
> > /Thomas Jedenfelt
>
> The point was not to make fun of you, but to illustrate the futility of
> accesskeys and the fact that by-and-large they are not used by
> developers anyway. The fact that you have not included on your site
> them illustrates the point - very pointedly. If I offended you or
> insulted you in any way, it was not my intent and I apologize.
>
> JF
--
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From: Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC
Date: Thu, Aug 18 2005 5:40PM
Subject: RE: web access keys
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Thomas,
I took the time to post your finding (regarding mapping of
access key F on us.gov) and received the following response:
"Dear Visitor,
Thanks for sending your message to FirstGov.gov, and thanks for
pointing this oversight out to us. Per your message, we will assign
different letters for the access key that don't conflict with Microsoft
defaults. We will also assign different access key letters for the two
separate links that go to answers.firstgov and firstgov.gov/questions.
Please don't hesitate to contact us if you ever have additional comments
or suggestions for the site."
Regards,
Norman Robinson
From: John Foliot - WATS.ca
Date: Thu, Aug 18 2005 5:40PM
Subject: RE: web access keys
← Previous message | No next message
Robinson, Norman B - Washington, DC wrote:
> Thomas,
>
> I took the time to post your finding (regarding mapping of
> access key F on us.gov) and received the following response:
>
> "Dear Visitor,
>
> Thanks for sending your message to FirstGov.gov, and thanks for
> pointing this oversight out to us. Per your message, we will assign
> different letters for the access key that don't conflict with
> Microsoft defaults. We will also assign different access key letters
> for the two separate links that go to answers.firstgov and
> firstgov.gov/questions. Please don't hesitate to contact us if you
> ever have additional comments or suggestions for the site."
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Norman Robinson
Hi Norman,
It was me that pointed out the issues <smile> - No worries. Well, if
you can get them to re-think keymappings, you're a good man indeed.
Perhaps you can point the "them" to this chart, so that they might think
beyond Windows:
Accesskeys and Reserved Keystroke Combinations:
http://www.wats.ca/resources/accesskeysandkeystrokes/38
Given that they are only looking for 2 keystrokes, I recall that ALT + X
is still available (go figure), and/or numeric selectors, which, while
they still have issues, are the safer choices...
(Better yet, dump the accesskeys altogether - empirical proof suggests
that nobody is using them at that site, otherwise they probably would
have heard about it before now, no?)
JF
--
John Foliot = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Web Accessibility Specialist / Co-founder of WATS.ca
Web Accessibility Testing and Services
http://www.wats.ca
Phone: 1-613-482-7053