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From: Date: Tue, May 25 2021 9:51AM
Subject: Question regarding live caption
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Dear list members,

last week we ran a live event for the GAAD 2021. Live captioning was
provided for the whole event using a separate website due to technical
restriction.
One participant, who identified as being blind, later complained that the
captions weren't accessible to her.
My question is, if we follow the WCAG 2.1, would we have to make the
captions fully accessible to all? I always thought of captions as success
criterion for people who are deaf or hard of hearing (see Success Criterion
1.2.4 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/captions-live.html
<https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/captions-live.html>).
Though, while there certainly are people who are deaf-blind, I would not
consider captions an option for blind users. But please correct me if I'm
mistaken.

Kind regards

Björn

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Tue, May 25 2021 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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There are others who may also benefit from captions, people learning English, people in a noisy environment, etc.

When done correctly, accessibility benefits everybody!

Dave

From: Polling, Neil
Date: Tue, May 25 2021 10:16AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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Additionally captions can be used in such a way that they aren't just showing what people are saying, but also include descriptions of what is happening. So if there are captions that are providing context that would normally be provided through vision, if those captions aren't also in some way being read aloud then the overall experience would be inaccessible to those with vision impairments.

Neil Polling | Quality Assurance Analyst | Broadridge Financial Solutions, Inc.
525 S. Lake Avenue | Duluth, MN | USA | p 218-464-5344 | m 218-409-3019

broadridge.com

From: Lucy GRECO
Date: Tue, May 25 2021 10:25AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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Hello

I WOULD BE SUPPRIZED TO FIND THE CAPTION WEB SITE NOT ACCESSABLE. THAT
STRIKES ME AS NOT LIKELY HAVE YOU CHECKED THAT WEB SITE YOUR SELF MAYBE IT
JUST NEEDED BETTTER DIRECTIONS FOR A SCREENREADER USER AFTER ALL CAPTIONS
ARE TEXT AREN'T THEY
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces



On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:17 AM Polling, Neil < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Additionally captions can be used in such a way that they aren't just
> showing what people are saying, but also include descriptions of what is
> happening. So if there are captions that are providing context that would
> normally be provided through vision, if those captions aren't also in some
> way being read aloud then the overall experience would be inaccessible to
> those with vision impairments.
>
> Neil Polling | Quality Assurance Analyst | Broadridge Financial Solutions,
> Inc.
> 525 S. Lake Avenue | Duluth, MN | USA | p 218-464-5344 | m 218-409-3019
>
> broadridge.com
>
>

From: Date: Tue, May 25 2021 10:32AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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Okay, thanks. I think I didn't make my point clear enough. The question
wasn't about who benefits from captions, but whether the captions itself
would have to be technically fully accessible.

The participant who identified as being blind said that the captions, who
were presented to her using a web browser, weren't accessible to her using
a screen reader. We asked a service provider to do the live captioning and
they used their own specific web-based software. Their regular clients are
people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Their web-based software allows to
change the font, font size, colour etc. Text is presented as plain text
using HTML paragraphs. But for example, you cannot change the reading order
(text scrolls from bottom to top), which can cause problems in case you use
a screen reader. Also the content refreshed regularly, which could be
announced to users of screen readers.

So I think we should do some more techical testing on these. But it also
depends on how proficient the screen reader users are in operating their
software.

Regards

Björn


Am Di., 25. Mai 2021 um 18:26 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Hello
>
> I WOULD BE SUPPRIZED TO FIND THE CAPTION WEB SITE NOT ACCESSABLE. THAT
> STRIKES ME AS NOT LIKELY HAVE YOU CHECKED THAT WEB SITE YOUR SELF MAYBE IT
> JUST NEEDED BETTTER DIRECTIONS FOR A SCREENREADER USER AFTER ALL CAPTIONS
> ARE TEXT AREN'T THEY
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:17 AM Polling, Neil < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Additionally captions can be used in such a way that they aren't just
> > showing what people are saying, but also include descriptions of what is
> > happening. So if there are captions that are providing context that
> would
> > normally be provided through vision, if those captions aren't also in
> some
> > way being read aloud then the overall experience would be inaccessible to
> > those with vision impairments.
> >
> > Neil Polling | Quality Assurance Analyst | Broadridge Financial
> Solutions,
> > Inc.
> > 525 S. Lake Avenue | Duluth, MN | USA | p 218-464-5344 | m 218-409-3019
> >
> > broadridge.com
> >
> >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, May 25 2021 11:10AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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On 25/05/2021 16:51, Björn Fisseler wrote:
> Dear list members,
>
> last week we ran a live event for the GAAD 2021. Live captioning was
> provided for the whole event using a separate website due to technical
> restriction.
> One participant, who identified as being blind, later complained that the
> captions weren't accessible to her.
> My question is, if we follow the WCAG 2.1, would we have to make the
> captions fully accessible to all? I always thought of captions as success
> criterion for people who are deaf or hard of hearing (see Success Criterion
> 1.2.4 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/captions-live.html
> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/captions-live.html>).
> Though, while there certainly are people who are deaf-blind, I would not
> consider captions an option for blind users. But please correct me if I'm
> mistaken.

I agree, under WCAG, captions are aimed primarily at
hard-of-hearing/deaf users. The assumption being that blind users will
be able to hear the audio and not require captions (and if anything
happens visually that's not conveyed by audio, that's where the
requirement for audio description comes in).

So, technically, even if you had a video with burnt-in open captions
(i.e. they're part of the video track itself, not something separate
like a text container that gets dynamically updated or anything), that
satisfies the captioning requirement for WCAG.

Deaf-blind users would most likely best be served with a media
alternative - a full transcript that includes a written version of all
audio, important/informative audio cues, as well as a description of any
visual-only information that was in the video.

IMO, of course.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Christine Hogenkamp
Date: Tue, May 25 2021 1:00PM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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Hi Björn,

When you say "Their web-based software allows to change the font, font
size, colour etc." first thing I think of is whether the captioning
software works similarly to one of those overlay website plugins type
interfaces that is supposed to automatically add accessibility
functionality to the existing page regardless of the original code. Because
if that's the case, then that could be the cause of your user's issues,
that the end result is just not very useable/accessible if it's being
auto-generated.

Do you have a link handy to the captioned video page in question?

*x*
*Christine Hogenkamp (She, Her)*
Front-end Developer

CONTEXT CREATIVE
317 ADELAIDE ST. W., #500 | TORONTO, ON CANADA | M5V 1P9
<https://maps.google.com/?q17+ADELAIDE+ST.+W.,+%23500%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+TORONTO,+ON+CANADA%C2%A0+%7C%C2%A0+M5V+1P9&entry=gmail&source=g>

*NEW: *It's been one year since COVID-19 hit—here's an interactive look
back at how we've come together: *oneyear.contextcreative.com
<http://oneyear.contextcreative.com/>;*


On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:00 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Björn Fisseler" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 18:32:35 +0200
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Question regarding live caption
> Okay, thanks. I think I didn't make my point clear enough. The question
> wasn't about who benefits from captions, but whether the captions itself
> would have to be technically fully accessible.
>
> The participant who identified as being blind said that the captions, who
> were presented to her using a web browser, weren't accessible to her using
> a screen reader. We asked a service provider to do the live captioning and
> they used their own specific web-based software. Their regular clients are
> people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Their web-based software allows to
> change the font, font size, colour etc. Text is presented as plain text
> using HTML paragraphs. But for example, you cannot change the reading order
> (text scrolls from bottom to top), which can cause problems in case you use
> a screen reader. Also the content refreshed regularly, which could be
> announced to users of screen readers.
>
> So I think we should do some more techical testing on these. But it also
> depends on how proficient the screen reader users are in operating their
> software.
>
> Regards
>
> Björn
>
>
> Am Di., 25. Mai 2021 um 18:26 Uhr schrieb Lucy GRECO < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >:
>
> > Hello
> >
> > I WOULD BE SUPPRIZED TO FIND THE CAPTION WEB SITE NOT ACCESSABLE. THAT
> > STRIKES ME AS NOT LIKELY HAVE YOU CHECKED THAT WEB SITE YOUR SELF MAYBE
> IT
> > JUST NEEDED BETTTER DIRECTIONS FOR A SCREENREADER USER AFTER ALL
> CAPTIONS
> > ARE TEXT AREN'T THEY
> > Lucia Greco
> > Web Accessibility Evangelist
> > IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> > University of California, Berkeley
> > (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> > http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> > Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:17 AM Polling, Neil <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Additionally captions can be used in such a way that they aren't just
> > > showing what people are saying, but also include descriptions of what
> is
> > > happening. So if there are captions that are providing context that
> > would
> > > normally be provided through vision, if those captions aren't also in
> > some
> > > way being read aloud then the overall experience would be inaccessible
> to
> > > those with vision impairments.
> > >
> > > Neil Polling | Quality Assurance Analyst | Broadridge Financial
> > Solutions,
> > > Inc.
> > > 525 S. Lake Avenue | Duluth, MN | USA | p 218-464-5344 | m 218-409-3019
> > >
> > > broadridge.com
> > >
> > >

From: Morin, Gary (NIH/NCI) [E]
Date: Thu, May 27 2021 8:26AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
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If the captioning is a text representation of the spoken word, no more no less, what is the value of them to a person who is blind or partially sighed and already listening to the presentation? Wouldn't it be redundant to hear both the speaker and a ScreenReader-read rendition of the captioning.

If the person is DeafBlind, then the web version of the captioning (as opposed to the captions integrated into a platform such as Adobe Connect, WebEx, or Zoom) should be accessible to someone then using, say, a refreshable braille reader. But that is a good question for those captioning providers and the web platforms (e.g., StreamText and CaptionedText) – are those web sites WCAG-conformant?

Although a recorded video could have an accompanying DESCRIPTIVE transcript, one which includes both the captioning and the audio-description, in live time, wouldn't a person need to request a reasonable accommodation – in addition to viewing/reading the captioning, I would like a real-time describer?

Gary

https://streamtext.net/

https://www.captionedtext.com/client/event.aspx

https://www.captionedtext.com/client/event.aspx?EventIDG91705&CustomerID21

https://www.streamtext.net/player?event­A

From: Date: Thu, May 27 2021 8:39AM
Subject: Re: Question regarding live caption
← Previous message | No next message

Hi,

I talked to the person who mentioned to us that she would like to see
additional support and accessible captions for the live event. She said
that it would be exhausting for her to listen to different speakers for
three hours. Sighted users would be able to use visual cues like the
presentation, which obviously isn't available to blind people. So one
way to get around this is to provide accessible presentations in advance
of the presentations.

Though I totally understand her point, this hasn't that much to do with
following the WCAG. It is an example where accessibility standards don't
help much, because it might be accessible according to WCAG, but still
unusable for some.

I also believe that web platforms of captioning providers should be
fully accessible. Because if you've ever listend to somebody's
screenreader, this is totally different in terms of speed than any
presenter. Sighted people might relax during a presentation, but still
be able to re-enter by using the visual presentation on screen, catching
up with what was said. A blind person is only able to listen actively,
when she/he is inattentive, she/he looses some of the content. Having an
accessible transcript, blind people would be able to catch up with what
was said using their screenreader with the transcript.

Again, I'm talking about real-time captioning of a live event, not a
recorded video. And I also can only imagine what would be helpful for
deaf-blind people.

Best

    Björn

Am 27.05.21 um 16:26 schrieb Morin, Gary (NIH/NCI) [E]:
>
> If the captioning is a text representation of the spoken word, no more
> no less, what is the value of them to a person who is blind or
> partially sighed and already listening to the presentation?  Wouldn't
> it be redundant to hear both the speaker and a ScreenReader-read
> rendition of the captioning.
>
> If the person is DeafBlind, then the web version of the captioning (as
> opposed to the captions integrated into a platform such as Adobe
> Connect, WebEx, or Zoom) should be accessible to someone then using,
> say, a refreshable braille reader.  But that is a good question for
> those captioning providers and the web platforms (e.g., StreamText and
> CaptionedText) – are those web sites WCAG-conformant?
>
> Although a recorded video could have an accompanying DESCRIPTIVE
> transcript, one which includes both the captioning and the
> audio-description, in live time, wouldn't a person need to request a
> reasonable accommodation – in addition to viewing/reading the
> captioning, I would like a real-time describer?
>
> Gary
>
> https://streamtext.net/ <https://streamtext.net/>
>
> https://www.captionedtext.com/client/event.aspx
> <https://www.captionedtext.com/client/event.aspx>
>
> https://www.captionedtext.com/client/event.aspx?EventIDG91705&CustomerID21
> <https://www.captionedtext.com/client/event.aspx?EventIDG91705&CustomerID21>
>
> https://www.streamtext.net/player?event­A
> <https://www.streamtext.net/player?event­A>
>
>