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Thread: best practice for Americanized foreign words

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Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)

From: jeffgutsell@fuse.net
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 11:07AM
Subject: best practice for Americanized foreign words
No previous message | Next message →

Hi all,
I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find it in the archives.
I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an experiment, I marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers. Does anyone have a creative idea of how to help? (The author has warned me that I do not have the option of using the Delete key.)

Jeff Gutsell

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 11:18AM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Is it an English document? Is it HTML? Do you want your American readers
to hear "very cool" instead of "très cool", and your Canadian readers to
hear "très cool"?

--
Sandy
sandyfeldman.com

On 2021-07-14 1:07 p.m., = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find it in the archives.
> I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an experiment, I marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers. Does anyone have a creative idea of how to help? (The author has warned me that I do not have the option of using the Delete key.)
>
> Jeff Gutsell
>
> > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 11:27AM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

> obviously that is not what I want for American readers.

Actually, it's not obvious. What are you expecting/wanting it to say? In
addition to what Sandy asked, do you want people to hear "trace cool" or
"tray cool"?


On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 11:19 AM Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Is it an English document? Is it HTML? Do you want your American readers
> to hear "very cool" instead of "très cool", and your Canadian readers to
> hear "très cool"?
>
> --
> Sandy
> sandyfeldman.com
>
> On 2021-07-14 1:07 p.m., = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot
> find it in the archives.
> > I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS
> mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an experiment, I
> marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly
> as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers. Does
> anyone have a creative idea of how to help? (The author has warned me that
> I do not have the option of using the Delete key.)
> >
> > Jeff Gutsell
> >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Chris O'Brien
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 11:52AM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Wrap a span around the word trés and apply lang="fr" to it. The language library should pronounce it correctly.

Chris O'Brien
Director of Accessibility
Legal and Litigation
416.224.7769


OLG Internal

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 1:07 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

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Hi all,
I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find it in the archives.
I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an experiment, I marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers. Does anyone have a creative idea of how to help? (The author has warned me that I do not have the option of using the Delete key.)

Jeff Gutsell

From: Karen McCall
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 12:00PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

This seems to be a type of slang or is it just because I'm Canadian? Do we do anything differently when encountering slang on web pages or in documents? Maybe we enclose them in quotes but I don't think we substitute what "we" think the intended meaning or use is?

Is this part of WCAG?

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 1:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

Is it an English document? Is it HTML? Do you want your American readers to hear "very cool" instead of "très cool", and your Canadian readers to hear "très cool"?

--
Sandy
sandyfeldman.com

On 2021-07-14 1:07 p.m., = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find it in the archives.
> I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS
> mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an
> experiment, I marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was
> pronouncing it correctly as French, but obviously that is not what I
> want for American readers. Does anyone have a creative idea of how to
> help? (The author has warned me that I do not have the option of using
> the Delete key.)
>
> Jeff Gutsell
>
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.w
> ebaim.org%2F&amp;data%7C01%7C%7Cecadd8e49ef1416676c708d946eb7a42%7C
> 84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637618799445389305%7CUnknow
> n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLC
> JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=l8%2FQl%2FZzU1SWHFaIwzeZQmooIGGRfIccsUye
> PYtouM8%3D&amp;reserved=0 List archives at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim
> .org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&amp;data%7C01%7C%7Cecadd8e49ef1416676c
> 708d946eb7a42%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63761879944
> 5399291%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC
> JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdatadzlArBAD5DkDHVYxNV9AFv
> YIODs1GxTFE9a0jnlYM%3D&amp;reserved=0
>

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 1:02PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Really sounds like the kind of Montreal slang I grew up with. Like Bon
Cop Bad Cop <https://www.netflix.com/ca/title/70095265>

--
Sandy
sandyfeldman.com

On 2021-07-14 2:00 p.m., Karen McCall wrote:
> This seems to be a type of slang or is it just because I'm Canadian? Do we do anything differently when encountering slang on web pages or in documents? Maybe we enclose them in quotes but I don't think we substitute what "we" think the intended meaning or use is?
>
> Is this part of WCAG?
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman
> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 1:19 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words
>
> Is it an English document? Is it HTML? Do you want your American readers to hear "very cool" instead of "très cool", and your Canadian readers to hear "très cool"?
>
> --
> Sandy
> sandyfeldman.com
>
> On 2021-07-14 1:07 p.m., = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find it in the archives.
>> I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS
>> mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an
>> experiment, I marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was
>> pronouncing it correctly as French, but obviously that is not what I
>> want for American readers. Does anyone have a creative idea of how to
>> help? (The author has warned me that I do not have the option of using
>> the Delete key.)
>>
>> Jeff Gutsell
>>
>>

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 2:09PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

On 14/07/2021 18:07, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> I marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers.

You can't really square that circle. Either mark it up as French, at the
peril of confusing some American readers who have never heard it
pronounced properly (thinking here of the french "niche" which Americans
stubbornly pronounce "nitch", which makes me cringe every time). Or you
leave it as is, and risk annoying people who know how it's pronounced
correctly.

(and though that's not the question, note that even not marking it up as
a language change won't fail 3.1.2 Language of Parts as the word has
"become part of the vernacular of the immediately surrounding text")

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 3:55PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Okay, so if I understand you want everyone to read it 'trays cool',
correct? If so, what about putting like a 'how to read this' next to it
like this:
"très cool." (say it as "trays cool") or something like that...it would
help everyone with what you are trying to do.

This is actually a complex question, as it also covers things like Franglais,
or any time someone is mixing two languages.

Interesting question!

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 2:07 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find
> it in the archives.
> I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS
> mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an experiment, I
> marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly
> as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers. Does
> anyone have a creative idea of how to help? (The author has warned me that
> I do not have the option of using the Delete key.)
>
> Jeff Gutsell
>
> > > > >

From: Peter Weil
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 4:39PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Jeff,

The question asked by Glen Walker has not been answered yet. What do you want, and what is your concern? The meaning of the phrase? The pronunciation? Both?

If you’re concerned that some readers won’t understand the phrase, then how about adding a brief explanation to the text?

Otherwise, it’s not clear what you want help with.

Peter Weil

--
Peter Weil, Web Developer
University Marketing
University of Wisconsin–Madison
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =



On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 2:07 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

Hi all,
I am betting that my question has been discussed before, but I cannot find
it in the archives.
I am editing a Web document that uses the phrase "très cool." JAWS
mispronounces the first word as an English word Just for an experiment, I
marked it up as French, and my wife said JAWS was pronouncing it correctly
as French, but obviously that is not what I want for American readers. Does
anyone have a creative idea of how to help? (The author has warned me that
I do not have the option of using the Delete key.)

Jeff Gutsell

From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Wed, Jul 14 2021 5:44PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Could you put a span around the word for "en" instances?
Example:
This is tres <span class="visually-hidden"> (tray)</span>

I haven't heard the word (tres (tray)) used in English vernacular since the early 90's, but I like it (probably since I was in my early 20's last time I heard it).

How about <span aria-hidden="true">tres</span><span class="visually-hidden">tray</span>

That way it is screen reader agnostic?

Peace,
David

From: jeffgutsell@fuse.net
Date: Thu, Jul 15 2021 9:48AM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

Sorry for the delay in following up.
I had hoped to get a screen reader to speak it as an American would say it, which is close to "tray." But JAWS speaks the "s."I think I have persuaded my friend to just change the word to "very" and be done with this.
I should have said in my original post that I was bringing this up because I think there is a bigger issue with Americanized words. Unfortunately, I cannot recall a good example but I know that I have heard French and Italian cooking terms mangled by screen readers Some European names of organizations I think also get mispronounced. I am not sure it is fair to mark these up as foreign language words since Americans sometimes try to use them as English.
I have never been involved in developing web content that involved such words before, So this struck me as something I had never seriously considered.
I like David's suggestions and will save some notes in case I ever encounter this again.

Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Engebretson Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 7:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

Could you put a span around the word for "en" instances?
Example:
This is tres <span class="visually-hidden"> (tray)</span>

I haven't heard the word (tres (tray)) used in English vernacular since the early 90's, but I like it (probably since I was in my early 20's last time I heard it).

How about <span aria-hidden="true">tres</span><span class="visually-hidden">tray</span>

That way it is screen reader agnostic?

Peace,
David

From: Chris O'Brien
Date: Thu, Jul 15 2021 11:03AM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

The actual French pronunciation should suit you fine then.

Chris O'Brien
Director of Accessibility
Legal and Litigation
416.224.7769


OLG Internal

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2021 11:48 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

This email originated outside of OLG. Do not open attachments or click links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Sorry for the delay in following up.
I had hoped to get a screen reader to speak it as an American would say it, which is close to "tray." But JAWS speaks the "s."I think I have persuaded my friend to just change the word to "very" and be done with this.
I should have said in my original post that I was bringing this up because I think there is a bigger issue with Americanized words. Unfortunately, I cannot recall a good example but I know that I have heard French and Italian cooking terms mangled by screen readers Some European names of organizations I think also get mispronounced. I am not sure it is fair to mark these up as foreign language words since Americans sometimes try to use them as English.
I have never been involved in developing web content that involved such words before, So this struck me as something I had never seriously considered.
I like David's suggestions and will save some notes in case I ever encounter this again.

Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Engebretson Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 7:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

Could you put a span around the word for "en" instances?
Example:
This is tres <span class="visually-hidden"> (tray)</span>

I haven't heard the word (tres (tray)) used in English vernacular since the early 90's, but I like it (probably since I was in my early 20's last time I heard it).

How about <span aria-hidden="true">tres</span><span class="visually-hidden">tray</span>

That way it is screen reader agnostic?

Peace,
David

From: John Northup
Date: Tue, Jul 20 2021 12:10PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

I think this could turn into a never-ending battle for screen reader pronunciation. Consider the word "content." With emphasis on the first syllable, it's a noun. Emphasize the second syllable and it's either a verb or an adjective.

I think screen reader users are generally accustomed to this.

I myself would tend toward pure HTML and let the chips fall where they may:
<span lang="fr">très</span>

Of course this would only change pronunciation in the screen reader if the user had the French language installed--but as a coder, I've done my job.

All the best,

John B. Northup
Director of Evaluations, WebAIM
Institute for Disability Research, Policy and Practice
Utah State University

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Engebretson Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 5:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXT] Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

Could you put a span around the word for "en" instances?
Example:
This is tres <span class="visually-hidden"> (tray)</span>

I haven't heard the word (tres (tray)) used in English vernacular since the early 90's, but I like it (probably since I was in my early 20's last time I heard it).

How about <span aria-hidden="true">tres</span><span class="visually-hidden">tray</span>

That way it is screen reader agnostic?

Peace,
David

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of USU. If this appears to be a USU employee, beware of impersonators. Do not click links, reply, download images, or open attachments unless you verify the sender’s identity and know the content is safe.

From: Shawn Henry
Date: Tue, Jul 20 2021 7:36PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | Next message →

On 20-Jul-21 1:10 PM, John Northup wrote:
> I think this could turn into a never-ending battle for screen reader pronunciation. Consider the word "content." With emphasis on the first syllable, it's a noun. Emphasize the second syllable and it's either a verb or an adjective.

Good news: W3C WAI [1] is working on this! See:
Pronunciation Overview
https://www.w3.org/WAI/pronunciation/

Best,
~Shawn
<http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/>;

[1] World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) https://www.w3.org/WAI/

From: Schulz, Leslie
Date: Wed, Jul 21 2021 12:24PM
Subject: Re: best practice for Americanized foreign words
← Previous message | No next message

John,
I agree with you.
Code the French as French and the English as English.

I think when languages borrow from each other, it is difficult to know whether the speakers are pronouncing it in their own language or in the language of origin.
For example, if a French speaking person says, très cool, chances are they pronounce "cool" differently from a native English speaker.
Any attempts to try to guess the pronunciation, such as trying to make the screen reader say "tray" will probably not be successful.
Tray itself is NOT pronounced the same as a person speaking French and saying, très. The r in the 2 languages is definitely different, and the e in French is not exactly the same as the a in English.

I think it is good to mark French as French and English as English.

This has been a very interesting discussion.
I even started watching a new movie because of it: Bon Cop Bad Cop.
I recommend it as an enrichment experience for those interested in languages.
I especially laughed when the French speaking police officer's daughter called him "pas cool", meaning "not cool".
She said "cool" with a lovely French accent.

Looking forward to the next discussion!

Thanks,
Leslie



-----Original Message-----
From: John Northup < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 1:10 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

I think this could turn into a never-ending battle for screen reader pronunciation. Consider the word "content." With emphasis on the first syllable, it's a noun. Emphasize the second syllable and it's either a verb or an adjective.

I think screen reader users are generally accustomed to this.

I myself would tend toward pure HTML and let the chips fall where they may:
<span lang="fr">très</span>

Of course this would only change pronunciation in the screen reader if the user had the French language installed--but as a coder, I've done my job.

All the best,

John B. Northup
Director of Evaluations, WebAIM
Institute for Disability Research, Policy and Practice Utah State University

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Engebretson Jr.
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2021 5:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXT] Re: [WebAIM] best practice for Americanized foreign words

Could you put a span around the word for "en" instances?
Example:
This is tres <span class="visually-hidden"> (tray)</span>

I haven't heard the word (tres (tray)) used in English vernacular since the early 90's, but I like it (probably since I was in my early 20's last time I heard it).

How about <span aria-hidden="true">tres</span><span class="visually-hidden">tray</span>

That way it is screen reader agnostic?

Peace,
David

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of USU. If this appears to be a USU employee, beware of impersonators. Do not click links, reply, download images, or open attachments unless you verify the sender’s identity and know the content is safe.