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Thread: Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)
From: Vsevolod Popov
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 5:46AM
Subject: Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
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Hello,
Soon I will be reading a lot of pdf documents, I would like to know what are
the accessible ways that are convenient for doing it on windows with NVDA or
Jaws.
I know 2 methods:
1. To open each pdf file in chrome and read it.
2. To convert each pdf document into word using Abby Finereader and
reading.
But I would like to read pdf documents themselves without converting to the
word format when it's possible.
I will really appreciate your suggestions.
Thank you!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://github.com/sevapopov2
From: Karen McCall
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 6:19AM
Subject: Re: Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readerson windows
← Previous message | Next message →
I don't read PDF in a browser and don't like that even when I make Adobe Acrobat Pro my default PDF reader, they still open in a browser. I don't have access to some of my tools in a browser where I do in a stand alone application. I also don't know if the document is tagged or not.
I typically just save the PDF, convert it to Word and read it. That is faster than trying to read PDF in Adobe Reader or Acrobat. I use JAWS and because we are in virtual view of PDF's focus can suddenly shift to another page, the top of the document, when I get a list of headings I might be able to navigate to the heading but the second I try to read the content under the heading focus shifts back to where I was in the document.
While some of the "blame" might be the adaptive technology, an equal part of the "blame" rests with all the span tags and unnecessary tags that are added to PDF documents. I'm finding "illegal" nesting of paragraph tags in paragraph tags for a single paragraph, figures are nested in paragraphs...it is like a wild west of tagging which doesn't help when you are using adaptive technology.
Navigating Word documents is faster/
I also can't use the Find or search in a PDF...it is still inaccessible after over 15 years of asking it to be accessible.
Most of the PDF you'll find are not tagged. This means you will need to infer the reading order which isn't reliable and doesn't create true/actual tags.
Whish I could be more optimistic. I have to access PDF every day which is why I invested in ABBYY Fine Reader.
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Vsevolod Popov
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 7:47 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
Hello,
Soon I will be reading a lot of pdf documents, I would like to know what are the accessible ways that are convenient for doing it on windows with NVDA or Jaws.
I know 2 methods:
1. To open each pdf file in chrome and read it.
2. To convert each pdf document into word using Abby Finereader and
reading.
But I would like to read pdf documents themselves without converting to the word format when it's possible.
I will really appreciate your suggestions.
Thank you!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fsevapopov2&data%7C01%7C%7C0ca72a435df045c1750008d96d3e3557%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637660936236090392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=VYcr0lg6mHH7HjWyUxfAumxvzFgVUYUupAbR2vZA4g8%3D&reserved=0
From: JP Jamous
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 6:26AM
Subject: Re: Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readerson windows
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You can open PDF files in Adobe Reader DC as well. I tend to read them using various ways with JAWS.
1. I let them open in Edge, but sometimes I have found that certain things are more accessible in Adobe Reader
2. I use Adobe Reader to open and read PDF files especially, those that need scanning. For example, if the PDF is an image, I perform a JAWS OCR scanning on it using the layered command Insert + Spacebar, followed by o and d.
3. If the PDF file is well tagged, you can use quick navigation keys with JAWS like t for next table, c for a dropdown list, or h for next heading, etc.
4. I tend to convert large programming books to Notepad. This allows me to have more control of the content especially the syntax or markup. You can use MSWord, but with different programming languages, it could automatically change certain symbols to bullets or other objects. That's why I prefer to use Notepad.
At the end of the day, you have to take each PDF file as a different challenge. Depending on its content, you have to identify which program you want to open it with. If the PDF content is a scanned image or has heavily nested tables, the challenge can be quite difficult to overcome. It becomes a 50/50 chance at obtaining the proper content.
=================================================Jean-Pierre Jamous
Principal Digital Accessibility Engineer
Jepelsy LLC
"The only limitations in life are those we set for ourselves"
=================================================
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Vsevolod Popov
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 6:47 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
Hello,
Soon I will be reading a lot of pdf documents, I would like to know what are the accessible ways that are convenient for doing it on windows with NVDA or Jaws.
I know 2 methods:
1. To open each pdf file in chrome and read it.
2. To convert each pdf document into word using Abby Finereader and
reading.
But I would like to read pdf documents themselves without converting to the word format when it's possible.
I will really appreciate your suggestions.
Thank you!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://github.com/sevapopov2
From: Vsevolod Popov
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 6:49AM
Subject: Re: Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readerson windows
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello Karen,
Thank you for your answer.
So do I understand correctly that you also always use an abby finereader and convert the documents to word format to be able to read them?
Also, how do you check if the document has tags and which tags it has?
Before asking my initial question, I saw that Adobe Reader is widely used, so it's another reason why I decided asking that.
Thank you in advance!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://github.com/sevapopov2
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
I don't read PDF in a browser and don't like that even when I make Adobe Acrobat Pro my default PDF reader, they still open in a browser. I don't have access to some of my tools in a browser where I do in a stand alone application. I also don't know if the document is tagged or not.
I typically just save the PDF, convert it to Word and read it. That is faster than trying to read PDF in Adobe Reader or Acrobat. I use JAWS and because we are in virtual view of PDF's focus can suddenly shift to another page, the top of the document, when I get a list of headings I might be able to navigate to the heading but the second I try to read the content under the heading focus shifts back to where I was in the document.
While some of the "blame" might be the adaptive technology, an equal part of the "blame" rests with all the span tags and unnecessary tags that are added to PDF documents. I'm finding "illegal" nesting of paragraph tags in paragraph tags for a single paragraph, figures are nested in paragraphs...it is like a wild west of tagging which doesn't help when you are using adaptive technology.
Navigating Word documents is faster/
I also can't use the Find or search in a PDF...it is still inaccessible after over 15 years of asking it to be accessible.
Most of the PDF you'll find are not tagged. This means you will need to infer the reading order which isn't reliable and doesn't create true/actual tags.
From: Karen McCall
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 7:37AM
Subject: Re: Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screenreaderson windows
← Previous message | Next message →
I have Adobe Acrobat Pro DC which is a subscription application. I have this instead of just a PDF reader because I do try to add tags to untagged documents to see if I can quickly get something useful and I also used to do PDF remediation. Reader doesn't allow you to add tags to untagged PDF.
Yes, generally it is faster to just convert the PDF to Word in order to read it, especially if it is a long document.
If you are using adaptive technology you should get a notification that the document is not tagged if you use Adobe Reader or Acrobat. You don't get this viewing a PDF in a browser. You also get a warning if the document is scanned which you won't get when viewing a PDF in a browser. This is why forcing us to read a PDF in a browser is an accessibility barrier created by Edge, Chrome and Firefox. Our settings to use a more accessible application to access content should not be overruled by another application.
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Vsevolod Popov
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:50 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
Hello Karen,
Thank you for your answer.
So do I understand correctly that you also always use an abby finereader and convert the documents to word format to be able to read them?
Also, how do you check if the document has tags and which tags it has?
Before asking my initial question, I saw that Adobe Reader is widely used, so it's another reason why I decided asking that.
Thank you in advance!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fsevapopov2&data%7C01%7C%7Ca2fe23704969415f050808d96d4704d2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637660974067947222%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iIqeSgWI9k9jYHZVGU%2BETdVAkQzwKSQwVABxwwVjGZA%3D&reserved=0
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
I don't read PDF in a browser and don't like that even when I make Adobe Acrobat Pro my default PDF reader, they still open in a browser. I don't have access to some of my tools in a browser where I do in a stand alone application. I also don't know if the document is tagged or not.
I typically just save the PDF, convert it to Word and read it. That is faster than trying to read PDF in Adobe Reader or Acrobat. I use JAWS and because we are in virtual view of PDF's focus can suddenly shift to another page, the top of the document, when I get a list of headings I might be able to navigate to the heading but the second I try to read the content under the heading focus shifts back to where I was in the document.
While some of the "blame" might be the adaptive technology, an equal part of the "blame" rests with all the span tags and unnecessary tags that are added to PDF documents. I'm finding "illegal" nesting of paragraph tags in paragraph tags for a single paragraph, figures are nested in paragraphs...it is like a wild west of tagging which doesn't help when you are using adaptive technology.
Navigating Word documents is faster/
I also can't use the Find or search in a PDF...it is still inaccessible after over 15 years of asking it to be accessible.
Most of the PDF you'll find are not tagged. This means you will need to infer the reading order which isn't reliable and doesn't create true/actual tags.
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 8:05AM
Subject: Re: Accessible ways to read pdf documents withscreenreaderson windows
← Previous message | Next message →
All browsers allow you to download PDFs instead of opening them in the browser. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to find the settings that do this, but they are in there somewhere. Then you can open the PDF in your preferred application. It would be nice if you could tell the browser to open PDFs in another application, but the process described above only adds two extra clicks.
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: 01 September 2021 14:38
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
I have Adobe Acrobat Pro DC which is a subscription application. I have this instead of just a PDF reader because I do try to add tags to untagged documents to see if I can quickly get something useful and I also used to do PDF remediation. Reader doesn't allow you to add tags to untagged PDF.
Yes, generally it is faster to just convert the PDF to Word in order to read it, especially if it is a long document.
If you are using adaptive technology you should get a notification that the document is not tagged if you use Adobe Reader or Acrobat. You don't get this viewing a PDF in a browser. You also get a warning if the document is scanned which you won't get when viewing a PDF in a browser. This is why forcing us to read a PDF in a browser is an accessibility barrier created by Edge, Chrome and Firefox. Our settings to use a more accessible application to access content should not be overruled by another application.
Cheers, Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Vsevolod Popov
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:50 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
Hello Karen,
Thank you for your answer.
So do I understand correctly that you also always use an abby finereader and convert the documents to word format to be able to read them?
Also, how do you check if the document has tags and which tags it has?
Before asking my initial question, I saw that Adobe Reader is widely used, so it's another reason why I decided asking that.
Thank you in advance!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fsevapopov2&data%7C01%7C%7Ca2fe23704969415f050808d96d4704d2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637660974067947222%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iIqeSgWI9k9jYHZVGU%2BETdVAkQzwKSQwVABxwwVjGZA%3D&reserved=0
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
I don't read PDF in a browser and don't like that even when I make Adobe Acrobat Pro my default PDF reader, they still open in a browser. I don't have access to some of my tools in a browser where I do in a stand alone application. I also don't know if the document is tagged or not.
I typically just save the PDF, convert it to Word and read it. That is faster than trying to read PDF in Adobe Reader or Acrobat. I use JAWS and because we are in virtual view of PDF's focus can suddenly shift to another page, the top of the document, when I get a list of headings I might be able to navigate to the heading but the second I try to read the content under the heading focus shifts back to where I was in the document.
While some of the "blame" might be the adaptive technology, an equal part of the "blame" rests with all the span tags and unnecessary tags that are added to PDF documents. I'm finding "illegal" nesting of paragraph tags in paragraph tags for a single paragraph, figures are nested in paragraphs...it is like a wild west of tagging which doesn't help when you are using adaptive technology.
Navigating Word documents is faster/
I also can't use the Find or search in a PDF...it is still inaccessible after over 15 years of asking it to be accessible.
Most of the PDF you'll find are not tagged. This means you will need to infer the reading order which isn't reliable and doesn't create true/actual tags.
From: Vsevolod Popov
Date: Wed, Sep 01 2021 12:45PM
Subject: Re: Accessible ways to read pdf documents withscreenreaderson windows
← Previous message | No next message
Ok, so I will try adobe app out.
Thank you!
--
Best regards,
Vsevolod
https://github.com/sevapopov2
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Karen McCall
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 4:38 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible ways to read pdf documents with screen readers on windows
I have Adobe Acrobat Pro DC which is a subscription application. I have this instead of just a PDF reader because I do try to add tags to untagged documents to see if I can quickly get something useful and I also used to do PDF remediation. Reader doesn't allow you to add tags to untagged PDF.
Yes, generally it is faster to just convert the PDF to Word in order to read it, especially if it is a long document.
If you are using adaptive technology you should get a notification that the document is not tagged if you use Adobe Reader or Acrobat. You don't get this viewing a PDF in a browser. You also get a warning if the document is scanned which you won't get when viewing a PDF in a browser. This is why forcing us to read a PDF in a browser is an accessibility barrier created by Edge, Chrome and Firefox. Our settings to use a more accessible application to access content should not be overruled by another application.