E-mail List Archives
Thread: Update: PDF Maker problems
Number of posts in this thread: 17 (In chronological order)
From: chagnon
Date: Mon, Sep 27 2021 2:48PM
Subject: Update: PDF Maker problems
No previous message | Next message →
Thanks to everyone who posted their concerns (and other "feelings") about
the recent problems with PDFs exported from Word with Adobe's PDF Maker
plug-in. We have more than 150 votes at
https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/garage-floor-resurfacing-fix-a-pitted
-garage-floor/
(As some commented, what does it mean when we have to vote to get bugs
fixed?)
Some good news and not so good news.
1. Our blog that details the problems also has some help
https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml:
a. A handout you can use to export PDFs from Word using Microsoft's
built-in PDF utility. At this time, it's not putting in any of the problems
as Adobe's, but who knows. Both companies have been known to seriously botch
this process.
https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#download
We've given our instructions a creative commons license, which will allow
you to electronically distribute it within your organization.
2. Adobe has said they are working on a bug fix for the missing
Alt-text on graphics.
3. But upon further testing over the weekend, we've documented another
twist on that bug: When a graphic is manually marked in Word as decorative /
artifacted, the resulting tagged PDF is a mess:
a. PDF Maker adds gibberish code as Alt-text.
b. It is tagged as <P> with the image data. Not only is this a
violation of the PDF/UA-1 standard (image data must be in a <Figure> tag),
but it is voiced as a confusing bunch of crud: no announcement that there's
an image, the screen readers pick up the gibberish Alt-text.
c. See the September 27 update to our blog at
https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#sept27
4. Issues are found in the Mac update as well, including this one
about dragging/dropping in Acrobat's tree panels:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/acrobat-pro-accessibility
-tools-not-working/m-p/12408086#M331041
5. And I'll end on some good news. Adobe has released the super-secret
instructions on how to remove the current buggy version of Acrobat and roll
back to the previous install. See Ankit Kumar Gupta's solution at
https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/install-the-previous-patc
h-update/m-p/12387847#M3... Suggestion: keep that information for future
reference, and pass it along to your IT department.
My best to you.and please encourage others to vote.
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ <http://www.pubcom.com/classes>; classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter
<https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> - Simple Guide to
Writing Alt-Text
<https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml>
From: L Snider
Date: Mon, Sep 27 2021 3:07PM
Subject: Re: Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks for all your hard work on this and the removal instructions! I
really hope they get this sorted...It shows they do no testing on the
back end with users who do accessibility, or users with disabilities,
when they make major changes. I hope this spurs change, it is 2021.
Cheers
Lisa
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 5:48 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who posted their concerns (and other "feelings") about
> the recent problems with PDFs exported from Word with Adobe's PDF Maker
> plug-in. We have more than 150 votes at
> https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/garage-floor-resurfacing-fix-a-pitted
> -garage-floor/
>
> (As some commented, what does it mean when we have to vote to get bugs
> fixed?)
>
> Some good news and not so good news.
>
> 1. Our blog that details the problems also has some help
> https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml:
>
> a. A handout you can use to export PDFs from Word using Microsoft's
> built-in PDF utility. At this time, it's not putting in any of the problems
> as Adobe's, but who knows. Both companies have been known to seriously botch
> this process.
> https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#download
> We've given our instructions a creative commons license, which will allow
> you to electronically distribute it within your organization.
>
> 2. Adobe has said they are working on a bug fix for the missing
> Alt-text on graphics.
>
> 3. But upon further testing over the weekend, we've documented another
> twist on that bug: When a graphic is manually marked in Word as decorative /
> artifacted, the resulting tagged PDF is a mess:
>
> a. PDF Maker adds gibberish code as Alt-text.
>
> b. It is tagged as <P> with the image data. Not only is this a
> violation of the PDF/UA-1 standard (image data must be in a <Figure> tag),
> but it is voiced as a confusing bunch of crud: no announcement that there's
> an image, the screen readers pick up the gibberish Alt-text.
>
> c. See the September 27 update to our blog at
> https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#sept27
>
> 4. Issues are found in the Mac update as well, including this one
> about dragging/dropping in Acrobat's tree panels:
> https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/acrobat-pro-accessibility
> -tools-not-working/m-p/12408086#M331041
>
> 5. And I'll end on some good news. Adobe has released the super-secret
> instructions on how to remove the current buggy version of Acrobat and roll
> back to the previous install. See Ankit Kumar Gupta's solution at
> https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/install-the-previous-patc
> h-update/m-p/12387847#M3... Suggestion: keep that information for future
> reference, and pass it along to your IT department.
>
> My best to you.and please encourage others to vote.
>
> - - -
>
> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> - - -
>
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>
> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
>
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ <http://www.pubcom.com/classes>; classes
>
> - - -
>
> Latest blog-newsletter
> <https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> - Simple Guide to
> Writing Alt-Text
> <https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml>
>
>
>
> > > >
From: chagnon
Date: Mon, Sep 27 2021 3:09PM
Subject: Re: Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks for the proofing, Colin!
The correct link to Adobe's bug page is https://acrobat.uservoice.com/forums/590923-acrobat-for-windows-and-mac/suggestions/44183082-accessibility-errors-with-pdf-maker-update-sept-20
âBevi
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at <http://www.pubcom.com/classes>; www.PubCom.com/classes
â â â
<https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> Latest blog-newsletter â <https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml> Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
From: Colin Osterhout < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2021 4:53 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Update: PDF Maker problems
That first link goes to an article on "The Family Handyman" about patching a garage floor. As an owner of an old home I did find that somewhat interesting, but I'm guessing that wasn't your intent. Do you have a different link for that Adobe issue?
Colin
On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 12:48 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > > wrote:
Thanks to everyone who posted their concerns (and other "feelings") about
the recent problems with PDFs exported from Word with Adobe's PDF Maker
plug-in. We have more than 150 votes at
https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/garage-floor-resurfacing-fix-a-pitted <https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/garage-floor-resurfacing-fix-a-pitted-garage-floor/>
-garage-floor/
(As some commented, what does it mean when we have to vote to get bugs
fixed?)
Some good news and not so good news.
1. Our blog that details the problems also has some help
https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml:
a. A handout you can use to export PDFs from Word using Microsoft's
built-in PDF utility. At this time, it's not putting in any of the problems
as Adobe's, but who knows. Both companies have been known to seriously botch
this process.
https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#download
We've given our instructions a creative commons license, which will allow
you to electronically distribute it within your organization.
2. Adobe has said they are working on a bug fix for the missing
Alt-text on graphics.
3. But upon further testing over the weekend, we've documented another
twist on that bug: When a graphic is manually marked in Word as decorative /
artifacted, the resulting tagged PDF is a mess:
a. PDF Maker adds gibberish code as Alt-text.
b. It is tagged as <P> with the image data. Not only is this a
violation of the PDF/UA-1 standard (image data must be in a <Figure> tag),
but it is voiced as a confusing bunch of crud: no announcement that there's
an image, the screen readers pick up the gibberish Alt-text.
c. See the September 27 update to our blog at
https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#sept27
4. Issues are found in the Mac update as well, including this one
about dragging/dropping in Acrobat's tree panels:
https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/acrobat-pro-accessibility <https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/acrobat-pro-accessibility-tools-not-working/m-p/12408086#M331041>
-tools-not-working/m-p/12408086#M331041
5. And I'll end on some good news. Adobe has released the super-secret
instructions on how to remove the current buggy version of Acrobat and roll
back to the previous install. See Ankit Kumar Gupta's solution at
https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/install-the-previous-patc <https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/install-the-previous-patch-update/m-p/12387847#M3.>
h-update/m-p/12387847#M3... Suggestion: keep that information for future
reference, and pass it along to your IT department.
My best to you.and please encourage others to vote.
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > >
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ <http://www.PubCom.com/>; <http://www.pubcom.com/classes>; classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter
<https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> - Simple Guide to
Writing Alt-Text
<https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml>
--
Colin Osterhout
Website Coordinator, University of Alaska Southeast
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Mon, Sep 27 2021 5:14PM
Subject: Re: Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Echoing what Lisa says. I just ran into issues with this today, and
cannot thank you enough Bevi for your work and detailed documentation on
this. I've linked to your blog post from a government intranet area up
here in Ontario to serve as a resource to tide folks over until Adobe
pushes up a new version.
Phil.
Philip Kiff
D4K Communications
On 2021-09-27 17:07, L Snider wrote:
> Thanks for all your hard work on this and the removal instructions! I
> really hope they get this sorted...It shows they do no testing on the
> back end with users who do accessibility, or users with disabilities,
> when they make major changes. I hope this spurs change, it is 2021.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 5:48 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Thanks to everyone who posted their concerns (and other "feelings") about
>> the recent problems with PDFs exported from Word with Adobe's PDF Maker
>> plug-in. We have more than 150 votes at
>> https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/garage-floor-resurfacing-fix-a-pitted
>> -garage-floor/
>>
>> (As some commented, what does it mean when we have to vote to get bugs
>> fixed?)
>>
>> Some good news and not so good news.
>>
>> 1. Our blog that details the problems also has some help
>> https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml:
>>
>> a. A handout you can use to export PDFs from Word using Microsoft's
>> built-in PDF utility. At this time, it's not putting in any of the problems
>> as Adobe's, but who knows. Both companies have been known to seriously botch
>> this process.
>> https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#download
>> We've given our instructions a creative commons license, which will allow
>> you to electronically distribute it within your organization.
>>
>> 2. Adobe has said they are working on a bug fix for the missing
>> Alt-text on graphics.
>>
>> 3. But upon further testing over the weekend, we've documented another
>> twist on that bug: When a graphic is manually marked in Word as decorative /
>> artifacted, the resulting tagged PDF is a mess:
>>
>> a. PDF Maker adds gibberish code as Alt-text.
>>
>> b. It is tagged as <P> with the image data. Not only is this a
>> violation of the PDF/UA-1 standard (image data must be in a <Figure> tag),
>> but it is voiced as a confusing bunch of crud: no announcement that there's
>> an image, the screen readers pick up the gibberish Alt-text.
>>
>> c. See the September 27 update to our blog at
>> https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2021-09-24_bugs/bugs_pdfmaker_1.shtml#sept27
>>
>> 4. Issues are found in the Mac update as well, including this one
>> about dragging/dropping in Acrobat's tree panels:
>> https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/acrobat-pro-accessibility
>> -tools-not-working/m-p/12408086#M331041
>>
>> 5. And I'll end on some good news. Adobe has released the super-secret
>> instructions on how to remove the current buggy version of Acrobat and roll
>> back to the previous install. See Ankit Kumar Gupta's solution at
>> https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat-discussions/install-the-previous-patc
>> h-update/m-p/12387847#M3... Suggestion: keep that information for future
>> reference, and pass it along to your IT department.
>>
>> My best to you.and please encourage others to vote.
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>>
>> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
>>
>> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/ <http://www.pubcom.com/classes>; classes
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> Latest blog-newsletter
>> <https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> - Simple Guide to
>> Writing Alt-Text
>> <https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> > > > >
From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Sep 28 2021 6:09AM
Subject: Re: Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
As a follow-up to Bevi's identification of this failure of Adobe to pay attention to the impact that these changes have on those of us who depend on our adaptive technology to read PDF content, I tested images marked as decorative in Word then converted to tagged PDF using the PDF Maker tool.
I am NOT notified that there is an image at all which I would expect. What I do hear appears to be just text "P 8 Y U". I hear this each time I land on a decorative image.
"Y me?" good question. ð
I can't even go in and artifact the decorative elements using the Content Panel.
I'm also noticing that a TOC is now being identified as a list of X items which makes me think I'm in the body of the document not in the TOC...but the individual items in the "list" aren't being identified as list items. This is affecting my legacy Accessible PDF as well as the ones I'm creating now. The TOC should not be reading as a list!
My recommendation for those of us using adaptive technology is to use the Export to Word in Acrobat , not the Save As...I find I get better results using Export PDF then choosing Word. Or, get a program like ABBYY FineReader or OmniPage Pro and open the PDF in that application then save as Word. I don't use Reader so don't know if that tool is available in Reader.
Am going to test PowerPDF and Foxit to see if I get the same results. Usually they follow the Adobe framework so this might be happening in those tools as well.
I don't understand why Adobe and others don't address accessibility bugs. We shouldn't have to vote on our right to read. Access to education and employment is a human right.
Cheers, Karen
From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Sep 28 2021 9:11AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
I just bought Kofax PowerPDF - My instance of Nuance PowerPDF wouldn't install. Kofax bought the print part of Nuance in 2018 or 2019 so my guess is that Nuance is no longer supporting even the install of PowerPDF.
I bought the PowerPDF Advanced which has the tagging capability. Standard does not.
On an untagged PDF with headings, lists and page numbers in a coloured box, everything got tagged as a <P> even the lists. This means that for this 10 page document with at least 4 lists on each page, the lists are going to have to be manually tagged.
There is no Content Panel in PowerPDF.
For the untagged document, when I opened the Reading Order Panel (which you have to do EVERY time you want to use it - it is not added to the Navigation Pane) and tried to designate both the page number and the image the page number was in/on, I was able to artifact the page number but the <Figure> tag was still in the Reading Order Panel but not in the Tags Tree and when I tried further remediation to get rid of the <Figure> tag, PowerPDF crashed. I was using standard remediation techniques - nothing strange or outside of what I would normally try.
For a tagged PDF that I use as my benchmark accessible Word document then use the conversion tools to create the PDF, parts of table gridlines and decorative images were "stuck" to text and without a Content Panel, I couldn't remove them. They didn't show up in the Reading Order Panel but did show up in the Tags Tree. For example: "PathIntroductionPathPathPath".
When Kofax purchased the Nuance PowerPDF I did call them and ask about their continued commitment to accessible PDF and patiently went over tags and their importance. Even their developers had no clue what I was talking about and they didn't seem interested in further discussions.
Am trying to find a Foxit website where I can get Foxit. I had the Foxit for Business and was working with them on accessibility/tags but they lost interest and my complimentary copy ran out. I can find all sorts of third party download sites but want to purchase from Foxit.
One final note...for this post...on PowerPDF. Kofax hasn't improved the visibility of the "Autotag" button. It is a tiny button with no label to the left of the settings/Options button just above the Tags Tree. It has an even tinier plus sign on it so the visibility of the button looks like a "glitch" in the software rather than a functional button. If you right click on No Tags Available, you can only add a Tags Root. However, the PowerPDF Ribbon in Word does create a tagged PDF by default.
Kofax PowerPDF Advanced is $179 USD or 238 CAD and is a one time payment. If there is a significant upgrade you would pay for it.
Will keep you updated on my research.
Cheers, Karen
From: chagnon
Date: Tue, Sep 28 2021 9:27AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Karen, here's FoxIt's website: https://www.foxit.com/
FYI, a couple years ago, folks inside FoxIt told us that they wrote
Microsoft's PDF export utility for Word (that's File / Save As / PDF).
For those who need this information, Foxit's headquarters are in Fremont,
California, but the company is incorporated in Fujian, China, and is listed
on the Shanghai Stock Exchange STAR Market (symbol 688095). It is not a US
company, no matter what their website says.
Since we now have companies with offices around the world, always look for
where a company is incorporated, and on which country's stock exchange it's
listed. That shows a company's true pedigree.
-Bevi
- - -
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician |
<mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at <http://www.pubcom.com/classes>; www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
<https://mailchi.mp/e694edcdfadd/class-discount-3266574> Latest
blog-newsletter -
<https://www.pubcom.com/blog/2020_07-20/alt-text_part-1.shtml> Simple Guide
to Writing Alt-Text
From: Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 11:11 AM
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: RE: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
I just bought Kofax PowerPDF - My instance of Nuance PowerPDF wouldn't
install. Kofax bought the print part of Nuance in 2018 or 2019 so my guess
is that Nuance is no longer supporting even the install of PowerPDF.
I bought the PowerPDF Advanced which has the tagging capability. Standard
does not.
On an untagged PDF with headings, lists and page numbers in a coloured box,
everything got tagged as a <P> even the lists. This means that for this 10
page document with at least 4 lists on each page, the lists are going to
have to be manually tagged.
There is no Content Panel in PowerPDF.
For the untagged document, when I opened the Reading Order Panel (which you
have to do EVERY time you want to use it - it is not added to the Navigation
Pane) and tried to designate both the page number and the image the page
number was in/on, I was able to artifact the page number but the <Figure>
tag was still in the Reading Order Panel but not in the Tags Tree and when I
tried further remediation to get rid of the <Figure> tag, PowerPDF crashed.
I was using standard remediation techniques - nothing strange or outside of
what I would normally try.
For a tagged PDF that I use as my benchmark accessible Word document then
use the conversion tools to create the PDF, parts of table gridlines and
decorative images were "stuck" to text and without a Content Panel, I
couldn't remove them. They didn't show up in the Reading Order Panel but did
show up in the Tags Tree. For example: "PathIntroductionPathPathPath".
When Kofax purchased the Nuance PowerPDF I did call them and ask about their
continued commitment to accessible PDF and patiently went over tags and
their importance. Even their developers had no clue what I was talking about
and they didn't seem interested in further discussions.
Am trying to find a Foxit website where I can get Foxit. I had the Foxit for
Business and was working with them on accessibility/tags but they lost
interest and my complimentary copy ran out. I can find all sorts of third
party download sites but want to purchase from Foxit.
One final note.for this post.on PowerPDF. Kofax hasn't improved the
visibility of the "Autotag" button. It is a tiny button with no label to the
left of the settings/Options button just above the Tags Tree. It has an even
tinier plus sign on it so the visibility of the button looks like a "glitch"
in the software rather than a functional button. If you right click on No
Tags Available, you can only add a Tags Root. However, the PowerPDF Ribbon
in Word does create a tagged PDF by default.
Kofax PowerPDF Advanced is $179 USD or 238 CAD and is a one time payment. If
there is a significant upgrade you would pay for it.
Will keep you updated on my research.
Cheers, Karen
From: David Farough
Date: Tue, Sep 28 2021 9:45AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
From the standpoint of a screen reader user, Foxit is a real pain to use.
Verry limited keyboard support for functionality;
Poor or no undo capabilities;
We use this at the office, but I have chosen to use Adobe at home instead.
David
From: Karen McCall
Date: Tue, Sep 28 2021 9:55AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
I forgot to mention that PowerPDF has little or no keyboard support.
Cheers, Karen
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 2:15AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Returning to the topic of Microsoft's PDF export utility for Word (File / Save As / PDF), why do so many of you not use it? Are there any specific things it does badly?
I have done a comparison between it and the "Save As Adobe PDF" option, and the Microsoft export works better for all the content types that we deal with. Almost every document we work on needs to comply with both PDF/UA and WCAG 2.1 AA, so if the Microsoft export was problematic I think we would know about it.
That said, I am well aware that there are some content types that we never encounter, such as mathematical and chemical formulae, embedded audio and video and probably a lot more.
And to answer Susan's question, a well-produced PDF will invariably be more accessible than the source document, but the extent of the difference depends on the nature of the content. For example, in a PDF you can artifact all decorative images and shapes so they are not exposed to assistive technologies. You can't do that in a Word document. Even if you mark an image as decorative, screen readers announce "decorative image". This is extraordinarily annoying if the document contains a lot of decorative images or shapes such as lines, boxes and arrows.
You cannot use a screen reader's single-key navigation shortcuts in Word, so there is no way to jump to the next type of element such as a list, graphic or table. Also, it is easier to select different colours for the text and background in a PDF - I am not aware of a way to change the colour of the text in all paragraph styles at the same time in Word.
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
From: Karen McCall
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 3:45AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
I use the Microsoft tool all the time. I only use the other tools like Acrobat, PowerPDF and Foxit when doing a comparison of how all the tools create tagged PDF.
Yes, you can change all of the colours for text in a Word document at the same time!
Modify the style. For example, if you don't like the default blue of Headings, use the ability to modify them by right clicking in either the Quick Styles Gallery, the Styles Pane or in the Apply Styles Pane (Ctrl + Shift + S) activate the modify button. You can then change the colour, size, font, paragraph settings, border, shading...any of the attributes for that style. As you accept the changes for this document only or for documents based on this template, the changes will be made throughout the document or additionally, for new documents based on the template.
If you need more detailed instructions, I have them, just let me know.
Same is true in PowerPoint, make changes to text on the slide master and it is done for the entire presentation. Save the current template and you can even save the template as a Theme and apply it to other slide presentations. Also have a conference handout on how to do that.
Cheers, Karen
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 3:52AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
I know how to change the text colour of a style, but if your document contains 20 styles, how do you change the colour of them all at the same time? Likewise, if you have multiple slide masters in PowerPoint, which most of our clients do.
Also, bear in mind that it's the non-technical end user that needs to change the colours, not us, so diving into the paragraph style settings would be very scary. By contrast, changing the colours in Adobe Reader is trivially easy and it applies to all the text.
Steve
From: Priti Rohra
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 4:28AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Hey Steve,
Just wanted to share, we can use quick navigation in Word with Jaws. Press
Insert + Z to turn on quick navigation keys and then use different quick
nav keys for headings, links, lists, graphics, tables and so on.
Always Be Positive!
Priti Rohra
On Wed, Sep 29, 2021 at 1:45 PM Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Returning to the topic of Microsoft's PDF export utility for Word (File /
> Save As / PDF), why do so many of you not use it? Are there any specific
> things it does badly?
>
> I have done a comparison between it and the "Save As Adobe PDF" option,
> and the Microsoft export works better for all the content types that we
> deal with. Almost every document we work on needs to comply with both
> PDF/UA and WCAG 2.1 AA, so if the Microsoft export was problematic I think
> we would know about it.
>
> That said, I am well aware that there are some content types that we never
> encounter, such as mathematical and chemical formulae, embedded audio and
> video and probably a lot more.
>
> And to answer Susan's question, a well-produced PDF will invariably be
> more accessible than the source document, but the extent of the difference
> depends on the nature of the content. For example, in a PDF you can
> artifact all decorative images and shapes so they are not exposed to
> assistive technologies. You can't do that in a Word document. Even if you
> mark an image as decorative, screen readers announce "decorative image".
> This is extraordinarily annoying if the document contains a lot of
> decorative images or shapes such as lines, boxes and arrows.
>
> You cannot use a screen reader's single-key navigation shortcuts in Word,
> so there is no way to jump to the next type of element such as a list,
> graphic or table. Also, it is easier to select different colours for the
> text and background in a PDF - I am not aware of a way to change the colour
> of the text in all paragraph styles at the same time in Word.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
>
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 4:41AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks, that's good to know. I thought there ought to be such a feature, but could not find it.
Steve
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 5:09AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
On 2021-09-29 04:15, Steve Green wrote:
> Returning to the topic of Microsoft's PDF export utility for Word (File / Save As / PDF), why do so many of you not use it? Are there any specific things it does badly?
I think some of the reasons why people use Adobe's "Save as Adobe PDF" export instead of Word's built-in "Export as..." feature are historical and some are just habit.
I know that many people on this list and elsewhere recommend using Word's built-in export engine. But when I evaluated the differences 4-5 years ago, the Adobe engine was decidedly better for the documents I worked on. In particular, the tag tree created for long tables and long, nested lists (spanning more than one page) in a PDF from Word were mangled, and would require considerably more manual remediation time for me than the (also somewhat broken, but not "mangled"!) tags produced by Adobe's engine. Adobe was (and still is) more likely to properly tag label (Lbl) elements in a list item. Links that spanned more than one line were rendered better. And Adobe was more likely to create a Table of Contents that didn't require retagging from scratch.
In some cases, Word's export engine at that time would even choke on long documents and only output tags for two-thirds of it, or drop whole pages.
Both rendering engines have developed quite a bit since that time. I suppose it is now just out of habit that I continue to select the Adobe engine over the built-in Microsoft engine if I don't have other options.
By other options, I mean the axesPDF for Word or the CommonLook for Office add-ins which both claim to generate PDF/UA-compliant PDFs directly from Word. My preference now is to use the axesPDF for Word add-in, which allows me to eliminate almost all additional PDF remediation work when generating a long Word document of a particular type - basically a 100-page standard Word document with a Table of Contents, simple-to-medium complexity tables, a handful of graphics, many nested lists, and a handful of footnotes.
Phil.
Philip Kiff
D4K Communications
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 5:43AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks Phil, that's really helpful.
Steve
From: chagnon
Date: Wed, Sep 29 2021 7:31AM
Subject: Re: [Athen] Update: PDF Maker problems
← Previous message | No next message
The export utilities by Adobe and Microsoft / Foxit are constantly leapfrogging each other, plus each can convert different parts of your Word content differently. Tables and footnotes are 2 examples that come quickly to mind.
Therefore, we recommend that our clients try both and see which method gives the best PDF for that particular Word document at that particular time. Guaranteed, the results will be different just a few months or weeks later when Microsoft, Foxit, or Adobe upgrade something. Hence, the leapfrogging effect.
To make the best choice, it might help to understand more about the PDF file format and the standards.
Adobe originally created the PDF file format in the late 1980s â early 1990s. Only Adobe's products could make and read a PDF file, and the Acrobat family of products eventually dominated the workplace for file exchange across platforms and between computer users.
In 2008, Adobe donated the PDF file format (not Acrobat, the software programs) to the ISO and it became an open standard (ISO 32000, to be specific) that today, is managed by ISO delegates and the PDF Association (disclaimer, I am a US delegate to the ISO and my firm is a member of the PDFa.org).
Any company can read the PDF standards and create programs to create, edit, and process PDF files because the standards are no longer proprietary to Adobe. Today we have hundreds of companies that create programs for PDFs. Maybe thousands.
But in the real world, Adobe's engineers are front and center on the ISO committees and working groups that create and manage the PDF standards. They are the most knowledgeable about the PDF format than any others in the world â in spite of the idiotic, bone-headed screw-ups they just put into the last update to Acrobat and the PDF Maker plug-in.
Foxit, CommonLook, and other companies mentioned in this thread are members of the PDF Association, but membership in the ISO committees, while not hidden, is also not broadcast either. It's an ISO thing. Those of us who are ISO members are there to work objectively to improve the standards, regardless of how our work affects our individual companies. So I do not know if Foxit is on the ISO standards committees.
My firm works with several companies that have software to create PDFs, and each one looks at Adobe-made PDFs and analyses them as they create their own PDF tools. I sure hope they don't repeat the bone-headed problems Adobe just released, but I would not be surprised if we started to see PathPathPath from their products, too.
Bottom line: don't blindly trust any of them.
Always test and verify the software's capabilities every few months.
âBevi
â â â
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
â â â
Latest blog-newsletter â Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text