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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: allyssa jessicon
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 8:53AM
Subject: Popup accessibility requirment
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Hi folks,

I have a query on Popup lists that are not opening with Ctrl+Option+Space
with Voiceover on MAC where alternate keys such as Enter, Space, Up/Down
works fine. Is this a WCAG failure? Any references? Links?

Thanks and Regards,
Allyssa.

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 8:56AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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On 21/02/2022 15:53, allyssa jessicon wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I have a query on Popup lists that are not opening with Ctrl+Option+Space
> with Voiceover on MAC where alternate keys such as Enter, Space, Up/Down
> works fine. Is this a WCAG failure? Any references? Links?

WCAG doesn't mandate exactly which keys etc a control reacts to (taking
2.1.1 Keyboard for instance, it only says things need to work with a
keyboard, not necessarily how, or which standard keys should be
supported, etc).

However, I would actually posit that the problem there with your popup
list runs deeper - possibly lacking a specific ARIA role or
similar...which then *would* be an issue under 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value.

I'd suggest investigating first what's actually wrong there, and based
on that deciding which WCAG SC (if any) this fails and why.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: allyssa jessicon
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 9:19AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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Thanks Patrick for your response.

Why don't we consider alternate accessible mechanism to not fail WCAG?
Since Enter/Space are commonly used keys to open a popup list that is
accessible can it be a pass through WCAG?

On Monday, February 21, 2022, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 21/02/2022 15:53, allyssa jessicon wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I have a query on Popup lists that are not opening with Ctrl+Option+Space
>> with Voiceover on MAC where alternate keys such as Enter, Space, Up/Down
>> works fine. Is this a WCAG failure? Any references? Links?
>>
>
> WCAG doesn't mandate exactly which keys etc a control reacts to (taking
> 2.1.1 Keyboard for instance, it only says things need to work with a
> keyboard, not necessarily how, or which standard keys should be supported,
> etc).
>
> However, I would actually posit that the problem there with your popup
> list runs deeper - possibly lacking a specific ARIA role or similar...which
> then *would* be an issue under 4.1.2 Name, Role, Value.
>
> I'd suggest investigating first what's actually wrong there, and based on
> that deciding which WCAG SC (if any) this fails and why.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 9:21AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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On 21/02/2022 16:19, allyssa jessicon wrote:
> Why don't we consider alternate accessible mechanism to not fail WCAG?
> Since Enter/Space are commonly used keys to open a popup list that is
> accessible can it be a pass through WCAG?

What I'm saying is that your failure here is likely caused by something
more fundamental (lack of appropriate role, for instance). The fact that
it's not opening for you with VO running is a side effect of the more
fundamental problem that is likely there, and THAT would be the failure
to hang this from.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 9:23AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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On the wider topic of what WCAG does and doesn't mandate under 2.1.1,
there have been various discussions... see for instance

https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/857
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/872

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: allyssa jessicon
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 9:37AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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Thanks again.

I would also want to highlight that the same popup works with other screen
readers such as JAWS without trouble. If it has something to do with
semantics then wouldn't it work with other screen readers except for VO.

On Monday, February 21, 2022, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On the wider topic of what WCAG does and doesn't mandate under 2.1.1,
> there have been various discussions... see for instance
>
> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/857
> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/872
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 9:52AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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On 21/02/2022 16:37, allyssa jessicon wrote:
>If it has something to do with
> semantics then wouldn't it work with other screen readers except for VO.

Different screenreaders, on different platforms, behave differently, so
that's not always a given.

In any case, it's difficult to dig in/diagnose this sort of thing
further without seeing the actual markup and code in action.

By all means, if the root cause is elusive, I'd note it under 2.1.1 if
all else fails. But possibly not as a hard failure, more as a "this is
broken, but it's not quite clear why and it works with keyboard without
AT running" (I'm assuming that's the case, right? Also, even with VO
active, does it open with just Enter or Space, without the VO keys also
being pressed?)

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: allyssa jessicon
Date: Mon, Feb 21 2022 9:55AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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Yes, it does respond to Enter and Space without VO key.

On Monday, February 21, 2022, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> On 21/02/2022 16:37, allyssa jessicon wrote:
>
>> If it has something to do with
>> semantics then wouldn't it work with other screen readers except for VO.
>>
>
> Different screenreaders, on different platforms, behave differently, so
> that's not always a given.
>
> In any case, it's difficult to dig in/diagnose this sort of thing further
> without seeing the actual markup and code in action.
>
> By all means, if the root cause is elusive, I'd note it under 2.1.1 if all
> else fails. But possibly not as a hard failure, more as a "this is broken,
> but it's not quite clear why and it works with keyboard without AT running"
> (I'm assuming that's the case, right? Also, even with VO active, does it
> open with just Enter or Space, without the VO keys also being pressed?)
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Tue, Feb 22 2022 4:52PM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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Hello,
One other thing to check is if the pop-up opens when using the space key with JAWS when the virtual cursor is on. When auto-forms mode is turned on in JAWS, then JAWS might be going into forms mode. I have seen cases where VoiceOver Macintosh and JAWS virtual cursor will not activate an item that can be clicked with the mouse, but not with the screen reader click action. Often this is because the activation is being associated with a mouse or pointer up event instead of a click event.
Jonathan

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Feb 21, 2022, at 11:21, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> On 21/02/2022 16:19, allyssa jessicon wrote:
>> Why don't we consider alternate accessible mechanism to not fail WCAG?
>> Since Enter/Space are commonly used keys to open a popup list that is
>> accessible can it be a pass through WCAG?
>
> What I'm saying is that your failure here is likely caused by something more fundamental (lack of appropriate role, for instance). The fact that it's not opening for you with VO running is a side effect of the more fundamental problem that is likely there, and THAT would be the failure to hang this from.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > >

From: allyssa jessicon
Date: Wed, Feb 23 2022 10:49PM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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Hello Johnathan,

Yes, it works with space key when the virtual cursor is on for JAWS.

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
> One other thing to check is if the pop-up opens when using the space key
> with JAWS when the virtual cursor is on. When auto-forms mode is turned on
> in JAWS, then JAWS might be going into forms mode. I have seen cases where
> VoiceOver Macintosh and JAWS virtual cursor will not activate an item that
> can be clicked with the mouse, but not with the screen reader click action.
> Often this is because the activation is being associated with a mouse or
> pointer up event instead of a click event.
> Jonathan
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>
>
> > On Feb 21, 2022, at 11:21, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > On 21/02/2022 16:19, allyssa jessicon wrote:
> >> Why don't we consider alternate accessible mechanism to not fail WCAG?
> >> Since Enter/Space are commonly used keys to open a popup list that is
> >> accessible can it be a pass through WCAG?
> >
> > What I'm saying is that your failure here is likely caused by something
> more fundamental (lack of appropriate role, for instance). The fact that
> it's not opening for you with VO running is a side effect of the more
> fundamental problem that is likely there, and THAT would be the failure to
> hang this from.
> >
> > P
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> > https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Weston Thayer
Date: Thu, Feb 24 2022 9:12AM
Subject: Re: Popup accessibility requirment
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That's interesting. Xcode Accessibility Inspector
<https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Accessibility/Conceptual/AccessibilityMacOSX/OSXAXTestingApps.html>
would
be a good test — locate the popup with it and use the "Press" action. In
theory, that should communicate to the browser using the same OS
accessibility API as VoiceOver's VO + SPACE shortcut is using.

If that works, it'd be worth double checking that Microsoft Accessibility
Insights for Windows
<https://accessibilityinsights.io/docs/en/windows/overview/>'s "Invoke"
command is successful (goes through the UIA API). If it works on Windows
but not macOS, that suggests a macOS-specific browser bug to me.

But agreed that sample code would be very helpful.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2022 at 9:49 PM allyssa jessicon < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hello Johnathan,
>
> Yes, it works with space key when the virtual cursor is on for JAWS.
>
> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > One other thing to check is if the pop-up opens when using the space key
> > with JAWS when the virtual cursor is on. When auto-forms mode is turned
> on
> > in JAWS, then JAWS might be going into forms mode. I have seen cases
> where
> > VoiceOver Macintosh and JAWS virtual cursor will not activate an item
> that
> > can be clicked with the mouse, but not with the screen reader click
> action.
> > Often this is because the activation is being associated with a mouse or
> > pointer up event instead of a click event.
> > Jonathan
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Jonathan Cohn
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Feb 21, 2022, at 11:21, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > On 21/02/2022 16:19, allyssa jessicon wrote:
> > >> Why don't we consider alternate accessible mechanism to not fail WCAG?
> > >> Since Enter/Space are commonly used keys to open a popup list that is
> > >> accessible can it be a pass through WCAG?
> > >
> > > What I'm saying is that your failure here is likely caused by something
> > more fundamental (lack of appropriate role, for instance). The fact that
> > it's not opening for you with VO running is a side effect of the more
> > fundamental problem that is likely there, and THAT would be the failure
> to
> > hang this from.
> > >
> > > P
> > > --
> > > Patrick H. Lauke
> > >
> > > https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > > https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> > > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >