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From: jp Jamous
Date: Fri, Jun 03 2022 7:22PM
Subject: Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines
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Hi folks,

I admit that my Dragon knowledge is not the best. I have been trying to read up on the Nuance site about the various Dragon versions, but I couldn't identify which version works best for navigating web pages and Windows applications.

I found Dragon Professional to be a Speech to text product that does not have any special databases like medical or legal. Does that professional version allow people with motor disabilities to navigate Windows, Windows applications and web pages? Of course, all of those user interfaces must comply with WCAG or Dragon would not be able to access their user interfaces.

Any knowledge you provide will be greatly appreciated.

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jun 06 2022 12:47AM
Subject: Re: Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines
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There are medical and legal versions of Dragon, but they cost a lot more than the Professional version. I have not used them, but I expect they have the special databases that you refer to.

We use Dragon Professional Individual for our testing, and I expect most other companies do. Dragon Professional Individual is cheaper, but I can't remember why we don't use it. They also have a product called Dragon Anywhere, but this is just for recording, and it does not do voice recognition.

One of the annoying things about Dragon Professional Individual is that it doesn't work with Microsoft Edge because it only goes up to version 15.6.1. Dragon Professional Group can be upgraded to 15.7.1 and does work with Edge, but of course it costs a lot more. This appears to be a totally cynical decision by Nuance.

Note that Nuance regard Dragon as a productivity tool, not an assistive technology, and they refuse to fix important bugs that have been in the product for many years. ARIA support is limited and Dragon doesn't recognise some form controls, such as number and date inputs. It's also worth noting that the vast majority of Dragon users only use it for dictation. Very few use it for web browsing, and even fewer use it to fill in web forms.

WCAG conformance makes pretty much no difference to Dragon. You might think that WCAG SC 2.5.3 (Label in Name) would be important, but for input elements Dragon responds to the visible text label, the accessible name and the "name" attribute. Very few other success criteria matter, but it is important that links and buttons have the correct role. Features such as "click link", "click button" and "mousegrid" enable interaction when elements have no visible label or are coded completely wrongly. Hover events can be difficult to trigger, but it is not necessarily impossible. Even drag and drop is sometimes possible, but it's painful.

Microsoft are in the process of buying Nuance, and it's a measure of how unpopular Nuance is that most people think that a Microsoft takeover would be a very good thing.

Regards,
Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
020 3002 4176 (direct)
0800 612 2780 (switchboard)
07957 246 276 (mobile)
020 7692 5517 (fax)
Skype: testpartners
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.testpartners.co.uk
 
Connect to me on LinkedIn - http://uk.linkedin.com/in/stevegreen2


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of jp Jamous
Sent: 04 June 2022 02:22
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines

Hi folks,

I admit that my Dragon knowledge is not the best. I have been trying to read up on the Nuance site about the various Dragon versions, but I couldn't identify which version works best for navigating web pages and Windows applications.

I found Dragon Professional to be a Speech to text product that does not have any special databases like medical or legal. Does that professional version allow people with motor disabilities to navigate Windows, Windows applications and web pages? Of course, all of those user interfaces must comply with WCAG or Dragon would not be able to access their user interfaces.

Any knowledge you provide will be greatly appreciated.

From: jp Jamous
Date: Mon, Jun 06 2022 7:33AM
Subject: Re: Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines
← Previous message | Next message →

Sandy and Steve,

Your feedback has been quite helpful. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Thank you both for your replies.

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 1:47 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines

There are medical and legal versions of Dragon, but they cost a lot more than the Professional version. I have not used them, but I expect they have the special databases that you refer to. We use Dra
External ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >)
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There are medical and legal versions of Dragon, but they cost a lot more than the Professional version. I have not used them, but I expect they have the special databases that you refer to.



We use Dragon Professional Individual for our testing, and I expect most other companies do. Dragon Professional Individual is cheaper, but I can't remember why we don't use it. They also have a product called Dragon Anywhere, but this is just for recording, and it does not do voice recognition.



One of the annoying things about Dragon Professional Individual is that it doesn't work with Microsoft Edge because it only goes up to version 15.6.1. Dragon Professional Group can be upgraded to 15.7.1 and does work with Edge, but of course it costs a lot more. This appears to be a totally cynical decision by Nuance.



Note that Nuance regard Dragon as a productivity tool, not an assistive technology, and they refuse to fix important bugs that have been in the product for many years. ARIA support is limited and Dragon doesn't recognise some form controls, such as number and date inputs. It's also worth noting that the vast majority of Dragon users only use it for dictation. Very few use it for web browsing, and even fewer use it to fill in web forms.



WCAG conformance makes pretty much no difference to Dragon. You might think that WCAG SC 2.5.3 (Label in Name) would be important, but for input elements Dragon responds to the visible text label, the accessible name and the "name" attribute. Very few other success criteria matter, but it is important that links and buttons have the correct role. Features such as "click link", "click button" and "mousegrid" enable interaction when elements have no visible label or are coded completely wrongly. Hover events can be difficult to trigger, but it is not necessarily impossible. Even drag and drop is sometimes possible, but it's painful.



Microsoft are in the process of buying Nuance, and it's a measure of how unpopular Nuance is that most people think that a Microsoft takeover would be a very good thing.



Regards,

Steve Green

Managing Director

Test Partners Ltd

020 3002 4176 (direct)

0800 612 2780 (switchboard)

07957 246 276 (mobile)

020 7692 5517 (fax)

Skype: testpartners

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

www.testpartners.co.uk<;http://www.testpartners.co.uk>;



Connect to me on LinkedIn - http://uk.linkedin.com/in/stevegreen2<;https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=uk.linkedin.com&t=h.eJwdjUkOgyAUQK_SsG4AmYquvIqRr1UoEvg0aZrevcr-DV9ScyDDjTwR08BY9TRs0YPbIp2PF9siKwhvWDNAFOR-I_6iI-CR1wU7Lk2vtWJ7GndIEMqnafLBQVorXLcYOS2TML11TnagBBcwK9YZrVRvuVRUtyxc2bai7TUiFExTxgi5nE1a_YW5E4s1hN8fISM5Tw.MEQCIGYe_PpK_hP3lV6cuULRjR0DkuF8_jnjLT-f3V1gEKkZAiBRSpDFU9HxfLuBhVUWC-P60sVjWme9KJcI4Ue6eATx7A>





-----Original Message-----

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of jp Jamous

Sent: 04 June 2022 02:22

To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>

Subject: [WebAIM] Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines



Hi folks,



I admit that my Dragon knowledge is not the best. I have been trying to read up on the Nuance site about the various Dragon versions, but I couldn't identify which version works best for navigating web pages and Windows applications.



I found Dragon Professional to be a Speech to text product that does not have any special databases like medical or legal. Does that professional version allow people with motor disabilities to navigate Windows, Windows applications and web pages? Of course, all of those user interfaces must comply with WCAG or Dragon would not be able to access their user interfaces.



Any knowledge you provide will be greatly appreciated.

From: David Wisniewski
Date: Mon, Jun 06 2022 8:55AM
Subject: Re: Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines
← Previous message | Next message →

I realize you are being cynical with the intent of humor, but it is also a measure of how the marketplace has gone. There is no money in dictation software as the marketplace expectation is ‘why would I pay for something I get free?'. Just as GPS and mapping companies have folded because smartphones offer their services for free, dictation (a key technologies for assistive use) companies are going away. We need to stay on the software companies to ensure that their products, however they are delivered (be it integrated or as standalone products), meet the needs of the community. We can do that by providing constructive feedback: critical evaluation and suggestions on adherence to standards where the targets aren't met.

Regards,
David

> On Jun 6, 2022, at 2:47 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Microsoft are in the process of buying Nuance, and it's a measure of how unpopular Nuance is that most people think that a Microsoft takeover would be a very good thing.

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Jun 06 2022 12:07PM
Subject: Re: Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines
← Previous message | Next message →

I am not being cynical, and any humour is unintentional. Dragon products have been unacceptably buggy since long before Nuance acquired the company, and they have refused to engage with the accessibility community in any meaningful way. The only thing that changed since Nuance took over, is that prices have more than doubled.

Microsoft's approach has always been to build basic features into Windows, such as dictation, Narrator and Magnifier. They leave it to third parties to build professional grade products with additional capabilities, which is why some people are willing to pay £1,000 for JAWS or ZoomText. There is money in the dictation market because despite all its faults, Dragon is far better than Windows' dictation features.

Nuance know exactly what's wrong with Dragon in terms of accessibility support because they have been told countless times over the years. However, they have never shown the slightest sign that they are interested in accessibility. And while a takeover by Microsoft would rarely be welcomed by a product's users, I think that Dragon is more likely to be improved under their ownership. At least they actually talk to their users.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Wisniewski
Sent: 06 June 2022 15:56
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines

I realize you are being cynical with the intent of humor, but it is also a measure of how the marketplace has gone. There is no money in dictation software as the marketplace expectation is ‘why would I pay for something I get free?'. Just as GPS and mapping companies have folded because smartphones offer their services for free, dictation (a key technologies for assistive use) companies are going away. We need to stay on the software companies to ensure that their products, however they are delivered (be it integrated or as standalone products), meet the needs of the community. We can do that by providing constructive feedback: critical evaluation and suggestions on adherence to standards where the targets aren't met.

Regards,
David

> On Jun 6, 2022, at 2:47 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Microsoft are in the process of buying Nuance, and it's a measure of how unpopular Nuance is that most people think that a Microsoft takeover would be a very good thing.

From: Mallory
Date: Thu, Jun 09 2022 1:01AM
Subject: Re: Dragon versions and meeting accessibility guidelines
← Previous message | No next message

JP:
If you want another example of some of the quirks of Dragon (and I believe the reason I bought professional was because it had more command and control than the "Home" or individual version, even though as far as selling the product, Nuance says Pro allows users to write their own macros (Python scripting, which yes some users who need this as AT do/have done. Ping Eric Wright on this), I made a stupid test page with 15 (not the latest-latest-latest 15 because they broke my login).

https://stommepoes.nl/work/dragon_tests/link_test.html

regards,
_mallory