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Thread: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 5

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From: Saravanan K
Date: Tue, Jul 05 2022 10:14PM
Subject: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 5
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Dear Friends,

I am in need of shortcut keys in eclipse, inteli j idea & pg admin for
using java & postgresql.
Is these platform's are fairly accessible with screen readers.
can anybody help me in accessing them with screen readers.

Regards.
Saravanan.K
+91 9916512402



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From: John Butterfield
Date: Sat, Jul 16 2022 2:42PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 15
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Sent from Proton Mail for iOS

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From: Pyatt, Elizabeth J
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 12:07PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
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I would add the lang="ja" tag.

Technically speaking Japanese is written in four scripts and "rōmaji" is one of them. In English mode, some screen readers may not know what to do with a vowel with a macron on top.

You can also send a test file to the student if they are willing to check it. The student will need to install a Japanese voice on the screen reader, but that's gotten a lot easier.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

Best
Elizabeth

P.S. Having worked with a Spanish course, I can attest that having Spanish read out with an English voice is not sufficient for the learner.


On Jul 26, 2022, at 2:00 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

From: Murray Inman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
Date: July 25, 2022 at 9:11:10 PM EDT
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Reply-To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >


Friendly greetings!
In an introductory Japanese course, there are several places where Japanese
words are written out using "rōmaji" which basically is the
pronunciation of the word written out using Roman characters. For example,
The Japanese word *ローマ字* would be written as *rōmaji*.

Would the best practice, both semantically and accessibility -wise, be to
add the lang="ja" attribute to a wrapper <span> element? HTML code example:
<span lang="ja">rōmaji</span>

My thinking is that yes, it should have the lang attribute because it is a
Japanese word. Anyone have any experience with the accessibility aspects of
this?

Thank you for your help!
Murray


Murray Inman

Manager, Instructional Media and Accessibility

VP, Ability Maricopa Employees with Disability Advocacy Group

480-517-8561 | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

RIO SALADO COLLEGE | https://riosalado.edu<https://riosalado.edu/>

2323 West 14th Street, Tempe, AZ 85281

Definition of "Accessible" <http://learnatrio.com/accessibilityDefined>; by
the Office for Civil Rights

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Accessibility IT Consultant/Lead Trainer
Penn State IT Accessibility
Office of the Deputy CIO
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > (General accessibility questions)
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

25 Shields Building
University Park, PA 16802
https://accessibility.psu.edu

From: Andrew Barnett
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 2:43PM
Subject: Re: WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
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Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 12:00 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of WebAIM-Forum digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: PDF column tag (Alan Zaitchik)
> 2. Re: PDF column tag (Murphy, Sean)
> 3. Re: PDF column tag (Murphy, Sean)
> 4. Re: PDF column tag (Duff Johnson)
> 5. Best practice for language markup (Murray Inman)
> 6. Re: Best practice for language markup (glen walker)
> 7. Re: Best practice for language markup (Peter Weil)
> 8. Re: Best practice for language markup (jp Jamous)
> 9. ISO guidance/standard for alt text, text alternative
> (Karen McCall)
> 10. Re: ISO guidance/standard for alt text, text alternative
> (Duff Johnson)
> 11. Accessible PDFs from Microsoft SSRS? (Alan Zaitchik)
> 12. Guidance on the audio presentation of text in videos,
> including captions, subtitles and other on-screen text (Karen McCall)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "Murphy, Sean" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 14:59:39 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
> I think it’s worth adding that using table structures for “presentation”
> purposes only, rather than for expressing data relationships, violates
> Matterhorn 15-004 and will prove inconvenient for screen reader users.
> Are you truly stuck with the tables?
> Alan Zaitchik
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Murphy, Sean" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 23:00:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
> Alan,
>
> We are uplifting a legacy system that generates PDF files via a Java
> program. I have conversations with the team today on this and will share.
>
> Regards
> Sean Murphy
>
> Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
> Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
> Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917
>
> Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and
> belonging is having that voice be heard
>
> Submit an Engagement Accessibility form
> Accessibility Single Source of Truth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 July 2022 5:00 AM
> To: Murphy, Sean < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
>
> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation – be
> cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>
> I think it’s worth adding that using table structures for “presentation”
> purposes only, rather than for expressing data relationships, violates
> Matterhorn 15-004 and will prove inconvenient for screen reader users.
> Are you truly stuck with the tables?
> Alan Zaitchik
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Murphy, Sean" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, WebAIM Discussion List <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 23:18:20 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
> Patrick,
>
> I see the column attribute very important to inform the screen reader user
> of the document structure. This is possible in Windows Word with Jaws for
> Windows to obtain this information. PDF should provide the same capability
> as I see this linkage with 1.3.1 Information and Relationship. As it helps
> users understand how a document is being structured so they can reuse
> similar structure when they are creating their own documents. As this is a
> challenge for vision Impaired users in learning and understanding document
> structure if they have never had sight.
>
> This feedback is from individuals in my network who want to create
> professional documents and always find this a challenge and want to be
> independence.
>
> The flip side of course not knowing it is in columns layout doesn't impact
> readability as long as it is done right.
>
> Regards
> Sean Murphy
>
> Sean Murphy | Senior Digital System specialist (Accessibility)
> Telstra Digital Channels | Digital Systems
> Mobile: 0405 129 739 | Desk: (02) 9866-7917
>
> Diversity is having a seat at the table, inclusion is having a voice, and
> belonging is having that voice be heard
>
> Submit an Engagement Accessibility form
> Accessibility Single Source of Truth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Monday, 25 July 2022 11:06 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: Murphy, Sean < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
>
> [External Email] This email was sent from outside the organisation – be
> cautious, particularly with links and attachments.
>
> HI Sean,
>
> > When a document is using newspaper column style or has content in two
> columns. Does PDF have a column tag? If not, how do you fix the reading
> order for columns so the screen reader reads column 1, then column 2, etc.
> If someone can provide an example of the tagging.
>
> There is no “column” tag; in PDF, text displayed in columns is tagged
> normally with heading, paragraph, etc. tags. The tags follow the flow of
> the text through the columns, but need not represent the columns themselves.
>
> PDF does include “Column attributes” for grouping elements (see 14.8.5.4.7
> in ISO 32000-2), however the PDF community has never actually determined
> that this attribute has an accessibility relevance. If someone can identify
> such a relevance I’d be delighted to take it back to the committees working
> on PDF/UA-2.
>
> > Currently it is being done in a Table.
>
> This is incorrect for text laid out in columns, as such content does not
> have table relationships.
>
> Duff.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "Murphy, Sean" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 20:09:42 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF column tag
> Hi Sean,
>
> > I see the column attribute very important to inform the screen reader
> user of the document structure.
>
> Can you help me to understand what you mean by “structure” in this case?
> Can you provide an example? As I understand “columns" (which flow down and
> then across the page, and are commonly seen in magazines and newspapers),
> they have little / no inherent semantics.
>
> If, on the other hand, you mean that e.g., a left column contains content
> that maps to content on a center and right column, then a table structure
> would indeed seem appropriate.. but only in that case.
>
> Last point: if the users’ AT does not support PDF tags it won’t matter how
> the document’s structure is encoded with tables or as paragraphs and
> headings; they won’t be able to perceive the structure as expressed via the
> tags.
>
> Duff.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Murray Inman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 18:11:10 -0700
> Subject: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
> Friendly greetings!
> In an introductory Japanese course, there are several places where Japanese
> words are written out using "rōmaji" which basically is the
> pronunciation of the word written out using Roman characters. For example,
> The Japanese word *ローマ字* would be written as *rōmaji*.
>
> Would the best practice, both semantically and accessibility -wise, be to
> add the lang="ja" attribute to a wrapper <span> element? HTML code example:
> <span lang="ja">rōmaji</span>
>
> My thinking is that yes, it should have the lang attribute because it is a
> Japanese word. Anyone have any experience with the accessibility aspects of
> this?
>
> Thank you for your help!
> Murray
>
>
> Murray Inman
>
> Manager, Instructional Media and Accessibility
>
> VP, Ability Maricopa Employees with Disability Advocacy Group
>
> 480-517-8561 | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> RIO SALADO COLLEGE | https://riosalado.edu
>
> 2323 West 14th Street, Tempe, AZ 85281
>
> Definition of "Accessible" <http://learnatrio.com/accessibilityDefined>; by
> the Office for Civil Rights
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 19:45:07 -0600
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
> Except that the text within your <span> is not Japanese, it's English, sort
> of. Similar to how Pidgen for Chinese isn't straight English.
>
> Phonetic alphabets aren't really a language but it looks like you might be
> able to have a "fonipa" suffix on the lang attribute.
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5646.html
>
> I'm not sure if it does anything for screen readers. That *might* mean you
> could have "jp-fonipa" as the language. I'm not sure but perhaps worth
> investigating further.
>
> If you had real Japanese characters in the <span>, such as the ローマ字 you
> listed earlier, then that should have "jp" as the language.
>
> Let us know if you try various combinations and can hear the screen reader
> change accents.
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Peter Weil < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: " = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, WebAIM
> Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 02:24:43 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
> Murray,
>
> I would probably use the lang attribute in your case. Why? Transliterated
> words are still “in” their original language; but they are written in the
> Latin alphabet. That’s what transliteration is. The purpose or value of
> transliteration is to make non-English words pronounceable to readers who
> are unfamiliar with the original (non-Latin) alphabet. Since one of the
> main purposes of the lang attribute is for better pronunciation, I would
> use it in this case, or at least test it. Which way is pronounced more
> accurately? With or without the lang attribute? Will the screen reader
> freak out because there is no Japanese alphabet to read, or will it attempt
> to read the word as if it were in Japanese, regardless of the alphabet?
>
> Peter
>
> > On Jul 25, 2022, at 8:11 PM, Murray Inman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> >
> > Friendly greetings!
> > In an introductory Japanese course, there are several places where
> Japanese
> > words are written out using "rōmaji" which basically is the
> > pronunciation of the word written out using Roman characters. For
> example,
> > The Japanese word *ローマ字* would be written as *rōmaji*.
> >
> > Would the best practice, both semantically and accessibility -wise, be to
> > add the lang="ja" attribute to a wrapper <span> element? HTML code
> example:
> > <span lang="ja">rōmaji</span>
> >
> > My thinking is that yes, it should have the lang attribute because it is
> a
> > Japanese word. Anyone have any experience with the accessibility aspects
> of
> > this?
> >
> > Thank you for your help!
> > Murray
> >
> >
> > Murray Inman
> >
> > Manager, Instructional Media and Accessibility
> >
> > VP, Ability Maricopa Employees with Disability Advocacy Group
> >
> > 480-517-8561 | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > RIO SALADO COLLEGE | https://riosalado.edu
> >
> > 2323 West 14th Street, Tempe, AZ 85281
> >
> > Definition of "Accessible" <http://learnatrio.com/accessibilityDefined>;
> by
> > the Office for Civil Rights
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Peter Weil
> Web Developer
> University Marketing, University of Wisconsin–Madison
> 608-220-3089
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: jp Jamous < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >, "
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 11:45:13 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
> Another thing to consider when using Eastern languages is the dir
> attribute. I have witnessed many language of parts that use lang=”ar”,
> which means Arabic. What ends up happening is that the text is flushed left
> when Arabic is a right to left language.
>
> I thought it was just visual in the past. However, I was able to confirm
> with a buddy of mine that it caused problems bisually and with screen
> readers as they tried to pronounce the words.
>
> It depends on how the text is being implemented as well. For example, if
> you have something like this:
> Name: JP Jamous
> Yet, it is written in Arabic, Name would have to be flushed right, JP
> would be in the middle and Jamous would be to the left of JP. Without the
> dir=”rtl” there is a possibility that some screen readers reads the Arabic
> version from left to right. For example.
> Jamous JP :Name
> Now, that will sound quite weird when being spoken with a screen reader.
> It is less of a problem visually, but it remains an issue. The sighted
> person would have to read left to right but flip the text right to left
> when processing it cognitively. It can be a cognitive overload after a
> while.
>
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Peter Weil
> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2022 9:25 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; WebAIM Discussion List <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Best practice for language markup
>
> Murray, I would probably use the lang attribute in your case. Why?
> Transliterated words are still “in” their original language; but they are
> written in the Latin alphabet. That’s what transliteration
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>
> Murray,
>
>
>
> I would probably use the lang attribute in your case. Why? Transliterated
> words are still “in” their original language; but they are written in the
> Latin alphabet. That’s what transliteration is. The purpose or value of
> transliteration is to make non-English words pronounceable to readers who
> are unfamiliar with the original (non-Latin) alphabet. Since one of the
> main purposes of the lang attribute is for better pronunciation, I would
> use it in this case, or at least test it. Which way is pronounced more
> accurately? With or without the lang attribute? Will the screen reader
> freak out because there is no Japanese alphabet to read, or will it attempt
> to read the word as if it were in Japanese, regardless of the alphabet?
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> > On Jul 25, 2022, at 8:11 PM, Murray Inman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Friendly greetings!
>
> > In an introductory Japanese course, there are several places where
> Japanese
>
> > words are written out using "rōmaji" which basically is the
>
> > pronunciation of the word written out using Roman characters. For
> example,
>
> > The Japanese word *ローマ字* would be written as *rōmaji*.
>
> >
>
> > Would the best practice, both semantically and accessibility -wise, be to
>
> > add the lang="ja" attribute to a wrapper <span> element? HTML code
> example:
>
> > <span lang="ja">rōmaji</span>
>
> >
>
> > My thinking is that yes, it should have the lang attribute because it is
> a
>
> > Japanese word. Anyone have any experience with the accessibility aspects
> of
>
> > this?
>
> >
>
> > Thank you for your help!
>
> > Murray
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Murray Inman
>
> >
>
> > Manager, Instructional Media and Accessibility
>
> >
>
> > VP, Ability Maricopa Employees with Disability Advocacy Group
>
> >
>
> > 480-517-8561 | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> >
>
> > RIO SALADO COLLEGE | https://riosalado.edu<
> https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=riosalado.edu&t=h.eJw1jkEOgyAUBa9iWDcgCIquvAr9fFotFQIYY5revbLo7iWTzLwP2ZMnU0OepcQ8MZaWkI03NlC0O7k15FXphiWkhyu87fpRKcnWOK8Y0eeTQngz10vgVmrTGac1jIDg7kIPVggD3SAZ75XWrRCjoopXLVZtxIKJHrj4-Vgy_JP2Ytvu_TVLPce_P-XRMck.MEUCIQDKxQL5XhqTHRV5sRLU07pABbU9FuMgi7nOrQ_4yQce-wIgdR2Y0tPwUZgo_muam_DmPUJpt4xgZ1MGQLHYkwFP0WE
> >
>
> >
>
> > 2323 West 14th Street, Tempe, AZ 85281
>
> >
>
> > Definition of "Accessible" <http://learnatrio.com/accessibilityDefined<;
> https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=learnatrio.com&t=h.eJwdjkEOgyAUBa9iWDciCIquXPQi-Pm0WIoGMMY0vXulu5dMZvI-ZI-ejBV55ryNlHrUMegc3VrD-qYaAFNys_Mun3e0LqAht4q8ihIwr_FhM2vabpBS0GWbFtzQp_Mv204AM0LpVlulYAAEO3PVG841tL2grJNKNZwPspasZLFkN8wY6wOdnw6XoEazF2YuFnbvr5nLY_b9AYilOhA.MEYCIQCl5zWNsIH8ScFoqBCni_ajiyF8HeCca0QZzlZ_6wsD8wIhANxDY6aKlOFJchLYDLzfkO0bbAd5-S70L3XCfDXm8lQ_>>
> by
>
> > the Office for Civil Rights
>
> > >
> > > https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=list.webaim.org&t=h.eJwVjkEOgyAURK9iWDcgCIquvArCp8WiEvzGNE3vXtjN5CVv5kuuHMnUkBdimhiL4UR6w2LCRo_8ZOTRkHflO2DpHnnb9aNSkq1pXiFBPD_UHhvzvbTcSW0647W2owXrF6EHJ4Sx3SAZ75XWrRCjoopXLVRtAoRcBkOc73BaCu6qzBW2XzGWiPUe__0BL9oyMA.MEUCIAzy0HwSgsb7uqHSzJyP6Qsg4aLG87oExqUaXsRHaw04AiEA-7AIx8lR6FYkpp51YC-MG_w2SH3jc37z4xC75h6ID6s
> >
>
> > > https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=webaim.org&t=h.eJwVjk0OgyAYRK9iWDcgCIquvArCZ8WiEn5qmqZ3L-wmeZM380U5ODQ1aEvJT4TcsCh74Cs8ibFR5xjtdRIV9GbfENGjQa_aPiGVyppo2_WjEJzsft7Bg4sfrK-DrD3X1HCpOrVKqUcNel2YHAxjSncDJ7QXUraMjQILWrVQtR4SBHyDdfNd1jGYXJkp7MzOlZjqWfr7Axk7OA4.MEUCIBz65g7xaAbDYclZ5usdTojl1FWmXIQy-s5tZzeNLdTbAiEAuOQn5vZyPb85zMXM7DxEuZIlp1F_yrZcmqqvdYBhcV0
> >
>
> > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peter Weil
>
> Web Developer
>
> University Marketing, University of Wisconsin–Madison
>
> 608-220-3089
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=list.webaim.org&t=h.eJwVjkEOgyAURK9iWDcgCIquvArCp8WiEvzGNE3vXtjN5CVv5kuuHMnUkBdimhiL4UR6w2LCRo_8ZOTRkHflO2DpHnnb9aNSkq1pXiFBPD_UHhvzvbTcSW0647W2owXrF6EHJ4Sx3SAZ75XWrRCjoopXLVRtAoRcBkOc73BaCu6qzBW2XzGWiPUe__0BL9oyMA.MEUCIAzy0HwSgsb7uqHSzJyP6Qsg4aLG87oExqUaXsRHaw04AiEA-7AIx8lR6FYkpp51YC-MG_w2SH3jc37z4xC75h6ID6s
> >
>
> > https://shared.outlook.inky.com/link?domain=webaim.org&t=h.eJwVjk0OgyAYRK9iWDcgCIquvArCZ8WiEn5qmqZ3L-wmeZM380U5ODQ1aEvJT4TcsCh74Cs8ibFR5xjtdRIV9GbfENGjQa_aPiGVyppo2_WjEJzsft7Bg4sfrK-DrD3X1HCpOrVKqUcNel2YHAxjSncDJ7QXUraMjQILWrVQtR4SBHyDdfNd1jGYXJkp7MzOlZjqWfr7Axk7OA4.MEUCIBz65g7xaAbDYclZ5usdTojl1FWmXIQy-s5tZzeNLdTbAiEAuOQn5vZyPb85zMXM7DxEuZIlp1F_yrZcmqqvdYBhcV0
> >
>
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: ATHEN < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: " = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 12:14:07 +0000
> Subject: [WebAIM] ISO guidance/standard for alt text, text alternative
> Morning Everyone!
>
> Two recent additions to ISO standards. For the Alt Text/Text Alternative,
> there is a twin document that is free from ITU. All links are provided:
>
> ISO Alternative Text:
> ISO/IEC 20071-11:2019 - Information technology - User interface component
> accessibility - Part 11: Guidance on text alternatives for images (
> ansi.org)<
> https://webstore.ansi.org/Standards/ISO/ISOIEC20071112019#:~:text=ISO%2FIEC%2020071-11%3A2019%20Information%20technology%20-%20User%20interface%20component,and%20what%20information%20to%20put%20in%20text%20alternatives
> .>
>
> ITU twin document (free direct download)
>
> https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p¦70bc38ac8393228a65ebda74393998e83ef6248cb9e0eb3f4fcffdd624608aJmltdHM9MTY1ODgzNzMzOSZpZ3VpZD1jMjI4YjIxZC03ZDZkLTRiNzgtYjUwNy0zMGNlZGJhOTQ2YWEmaW5zaWQ9NTE2NA&ptn=3&fclidºe7fbab-0cdb-11ed-afaf-df43c0b74c48&u¡aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXR1LmludC9yZWMvZG9sb2dpbl9wdWIuYXNwP2xhbmc9ZSZpZD1ULVJFQy1ULjcwMS4xMS0yMDIwMDktSSEhUERGLUUmdHlwZT1pdGVtcw&ntb=1
>
> There is also an ISO/ITU standard/guidance on captioning and when I find
> the link(s), I'll send them.
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 08:24:55 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] ISO guidance/standard for alt text, text alternative
> Thanks, Karen,
>
> I’ll make sure that these are considered for PDF/UA-2.
>
> It’s too bad that ITU’s tagging of their PDF is so poor. At least it's
> better than ISO’s. :-(
>
> Duff.
>
> > On Jul 26, 2022, at 08:14, Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > Morning Everyone!
> >
> > Two recent additions to ISO standards. For the Alt Text/Text
> Alternative, there is a twin document that is free from ITU. All links are
> provided:
> >
> > ISO Alternative Text:
> > ISO/IEC 20071-11:2019 - Information technology - User interface
> component accessibility - Part 11: Guidance on text alternatives for images
> (ansi.org)<
> https://webstore.ansi.org/Standards/ISO/ISOIEC20071112019#:~:text=ISO%2FIEC%2020071-11%3A2019%20Information%20technology%20-%20User%20interface%20component,and%20what%20information%20to%20put%20in%20text%20alternatives
> .>
> >
> > ITU twin document (free direct download)
> >
> https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p¦70bc38ac8393228a65ebda74393998e83ef6248cb9e0eb3f4fcffdd624608aJmltdHM9MTY1ODgzNzMzOSZpZ3VpZD1jMjI4YjIxZC03ZDZkLTRiNzgtYjUwNy0zMGNlZGJhOTQ2YWEmaW5zaWQ9NTE2NA&ptn=3&fclidºe7fbab-0cdb-11ed-afaf-df43c0b74c48&u¡aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaXR1LmludC9yZWMvZG9sb2dpbl9wdWIuYXNwP2xhbmc9ZSZpZD1ULVJFQy1ULjcwMS4xMS0yMDIwMDktSSEhUERGLUUmdHlwZT1pdGVtcw&ntb=1
> >
> > There is also an ISO/ITU standard/guidance on captioning and when I find
> the link(s), I'll send them.
> >
> > Cheers, Karen
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Alan Zaitchik < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 09:51:47 -0400
> Subject: [WebAIM] Accessible PDFs from Microsoft SSRS?
>
> I’ve been asked if Microsoft SSRS can generate accessible tables (simple
> tables, nothing too complex) in a PDF-format report. Is Power BI Report
> Server needed? Will it in fact handle tables?
> Thanks for guidance. I don’t have these programs available to me at
> present, and I remember that a few years ago support for accessible reports
> in PDF format was limited.
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Karen McCall < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: ATHEN < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: " = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 13:52:10 +0000
> Subject: [WebAIM] Guidance on the audio presentation of text in videos,
> including captions, subtitles and other on-screen text
> Found it!
>
> Here are the two links. The ITU version is free.
>
> ITU version (free):
> T.701.25 : Guidance on the audio presentation of text in videos, including
> captions, subtitles and other on-screen text (itu.int)<
> https://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-T.701.25-202203-I/en>
>
> ISO version:
> ISO - ISO/IEC TS 20071-25:2017 - Information technology - User interface
> component accessibility - Part 25: Guidance on the audio presentation of
> text in videos, including captions, subtitles and other on-screen text<
> https://www.iso.org/standard/69060.html#:~:text=ISO%2FIEC%20TS%2020071-25%3A2017%20applies%20to%20making%20captions%2Fsubtitles%20and,low%20vision%2C%20older%20people%2C%20and%20non-native%20language%20speakers
> .>
>
> Cheers, Karen
>
> > > > >

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 3:34PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, but it's rare.

A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but its owner.

In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and is not a deep-fake or knock-off.

So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."

All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used in repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different sections of the webpage or document.

Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I can make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page is decorative — that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of sighted users.

In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the information from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and discoverable by A T.

In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole of confusion and misunderstanding.

So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either Alt Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.

That's my 2 cents.

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Andrew Barnett
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 4:43 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24

Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?

From: Kevin Prince
Date: Tue, Jul 26 2022 3:51PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
← Previous message | Next message →

Interesting comment Bevi – in the ideal world of graphic design I can see how decorative is unhelpful. In the real world where people throw up a stock image because the template needs one many are clearly “decorative’ in the English meaning of the word. In the same way we are now starting to see our agency advice considering whether some of those background twiddles are decorative or whether , for example, Maori design is being consciously used to evoke a connection to the land. In that case a decorative border is more than decorative.

The key for our thinking is to ask why that image was chosen and what it conveys – if it conveys something then it is not decorative and the visual message is required for screen readers. Particularly with the indigenous designs this is an interesting debate – and often it is not something that is necessarily pointed out to sighted users but we still feel it should be included in the ALT text.

My journey around this started some years ago working on a women’s health site with a changing sidebar telling different women’s stories. At first I though the portrait to be decorative but as I watched the richness of the images changing I realised an important message from the images was that the site was for all women, pakeha, maori, pasifika, Asian and all ages. I changed my advice and insisted on descriptive alt text

From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > on behalf of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 9:35 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.


Yes, but it's rare.

A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but its owner.

In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and is not a deep-fake or knock-off.

So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."

All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used in repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different sections of the webpage or document.

Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I can make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page is decorative — that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of sighted users.

In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the information from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and discoverable by A T.

In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole of confusion and misunderstanding.

So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either Alt Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.

That's my 2 cents.

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant


Foster Moore
A Teranet Company


E = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Christchurch
fostermoore.com

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Andrew Barnett
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 4:43 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24

Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?

From: Laura Roberts
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2022 11:36AM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
← Previous message | Next message →

Bevi, I read elsewhere on WebAIM that it's unnecessary to use the word
"logo" in the alt text. I've always found this confusing.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:35 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Yes, but it's rare.
>
> A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos
> are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but its
> owner.
>
> In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help
> authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and is
> not a deep-fake or knock-off.
>
> So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live
> with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
>
> All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used in
> repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different
> sections of the webpage or document.
>
> Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
> It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I can
> make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page is
> decorative — that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of
> sighted users.
>
> In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
> The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the information
> from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and
> discoverable by A T.
>
> In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term
> "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole
> of confusion and misunderstanding.
>
> So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either Alt
> Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
>
> That's my 2 cents.
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> — — —
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> — — —
> Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> Andrew Barnett
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 4:43 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
>
> Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?
>
>
> > > > >

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2022 1:49PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, in general you don't need to say "image of...", "picture of...", "logo
of..." because the screen reader is already going to announce that it's an
image or graphic, but there are situations where it might be helpful.

With regards to logos, if there's a legal reason for saying so, as Bevi
mentioned, perhaps for copyright purposes, then saying "logo" might be
required or strongly encouraged by your legal department.

If I'm on a museum site and there is a mixture of paintings and photos,
then I might want to hear "painting of..." or "picture of..."

But for images used in buttons or links, you generally don't want/need the
"image of".


On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 11:37 AM Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Bevi, I read elsewhere on WebAIM that it's unnecessary to use the word
> "logo" in the alt text. I've always found this confusing.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:35 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Yes, but it's rare.
> >
> > A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many logos
> > are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that logo but
> its
> > owner.
> >
> > In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can help
> > authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful owner and
> is
> > not a deep-fake or knock-off.
> >
> > So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be live
> > with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
> >
> > All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when used
> in
> > repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different
> > sections of the webpage or document.
> >
> > Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
> > It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design, I
> can
> > make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document page
> is
> > decorative — that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention of
> > sighted users.
> >
> > In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
> > The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the
> information
> > from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and
> > discoverable by A T.
> >
> > In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term
> > "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit hole
> > of confusion and misunderstanding.
> >
> > So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have either
> Alt
> > Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
> >
> > That's my 2 cents.
> >
> > — — —
> > Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > — — —
> > PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> > consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
> > Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> > — — —
> > Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> > Andrew Barnett
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 4:43 PM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
> >
> > Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Wed, Jul 27 2022 2:36PM
Subject: Re: Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]
← Previous message | No next message

I agree with Glen (mostly). As a screen reader user I am alerted that something is a "graphic". I don't need to know it's a photo of, image of, portrait of,etc. because that is built in to screen reader technology. It just becomes cognitive overload for assistive technology users to add that extra verbiage in alt text.

However, regarding a "logo", I think that it's possible to describe logo images in a meaningful way. Personally I think that the designers who create logo's should be the folks responsible for creating the alt text of the image; they know what their intent was when they created the logo. I've seen some really meaningful alt text on logo's.

If the designer is no longer available to create the alt text, or someone else is responsible for the copy, then "Company XYZ logo" is enough alt text for me. I tend to skip over the graphic of the logo and wonder what is visually intriguing but I, even though I might try, can't control their workflow.

Basically, if someone doesn't care enough to describe their logo then I let it go. I'm not in control.

Cheers,
David




-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2022 12:49 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Decorative Logos [WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24]

Yes, in general you don't need to say "image of...", "picture of...", "logo of..." because the screen reader is already going to announce that it's an image or graphic, but there are situations where it might be helpful.

With regards to logos, if there's a legal reason for saying so, as Bevi mentioned, perhaps for copyright purposes, then saying "logo" might be required or strongly encouraged by your legal department.

If I'm on a museum site and there is a mixture of paintings and photos, then I might want to hear "painting of..." or "picture of..."

But for images used in buttons or links, you generally don't want/need the "image of".


On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 11:37 AM Laura Roberts < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Bevi, I read elsewhere on WebAIM that it's unnecessary to use the word
> "logo" in the alt text. I've always found this confusing.
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:35 PM < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Yes, but it's rare.
> >
> > A logo represents the owner of the information or product, and many
> > logos are legally trademarked, which means that no one can use that
> > logo but
> its
> > owner.
> >
> > In our hyper-faked world of news and dis-information, a logo can
> > help authenticate that the information is from the logo's rightful
> > owner and
> is
> > not a deep-fake or knock-off.
> >
> > So we recommend that at least one copy of the publisher's logo be
> > live with Alt Text stating, "Logo, ABC agency."
> >
> > All other iterations of the logo can be artifacted, including when
> > used
> in
> > repeating headers and footers, as background images, or in different
> > sections of the webpage or document.
> >
> > Regarding the term "Decorative" . . .
> > It's a subjective term, and as a former professor of graphic design,
> > I
> can
> > make a strong case that nearly everything on a webpage or document
> > page
> is
> > decorative — that is, it's visually designed to grab the attention
> > of sighted users.
> >
> > In accessibility, the term "decorative" is inaccurate.
> > The real decision to make is whether to artifact (or hide) the
> information
> > from those using screen readers and other A T, or keep it live and
> > discoverable by A T.
> >
> > In our classes and consulting, we urge our clients to ditch the term
> > "decorative" because it just sends everyone down a bottomless rabbit
> > hole of confusion and misunderstanding.
> >
> > So every graphic, whether a logo or something else, should have
> > either
> Alt
> > Text to describe it, or be artifacted to hide it.
> >
> > That's my 2 cents.
> >
> > — — —
> > Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician |
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = — — —
> > PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting
> > • training • development • design • sec. 508 services Upcoming
> > classes at www.PubCom.com/classes — — — Latest blog-newsletter –
> > Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
> > Of Andrew Barnett
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 4:43 PM
> > To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 208, Issue 24
> >
> > Is there any case where a logo can be considered decorative?
> >
> >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >