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From: Kevin Prince
Date: Thu, Jan 26 2023 8:40PM
Subject: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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I've had the scenario a couple of times recently on Mobile Apps, often on only one platform where a section of text is not read or even found by the usual swiping/exploring motions. As the other platform reads it I can't call it out under 1.1.1 and it's not really 2.1.1 cos it's not a control that I can't reach. Clearly it entirely breaches the spirit of Principle 1 - Perceivable but not the detail of any obvious checkpoint. Is this a hole in WCAG? Or is my brain so frazzled by the joy or having just helped t run Deafblind New Zealand's second bi-annual conference that I can't see the wood for the trees.

Summary.

Paragraph of normal text following a heading.
It's read by Voiceover but Talkback only finds the heading
It's real text - VO reads it.
It's not 1.1.1, it's not 1.3.1 cos it's not the relationships that are the issue, or any of the 1.4 checkpoints
It's not 2.1 cos it's not operable - it's just text.

TL;DR - it's clearly a bug and I wouldn't care but the customer insists on having a WCAG guideline is possible.

Thank you all in advance.

Kevin Prince

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Thu, Jan 26 2023 9:39PM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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I would think this is the same basic issue as continuous scroll is. BTW, the current New York Times App floats a “listen” button near the bottom of the screen when you first open the app or when you swipe up. One can not use VoiceOver gestures to get to the button other then explore by touch.

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Jan 26, 2023, at 10:40 PM, Kevin Prince < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I've had the scenario a couple of times recently on Mobile Apps, often on only one platform where a section of text is not read or even found by the usual swiping/exploring motions. As the other platform reads it I can't call it out under 1.1.1 and it's not really 2.1.1 cos it's not a control that I can't reach. Clearly it entirely breaches the spirit of Principle 1 - Perceivable but not the detail of any obvious checkpoint. Is this a hole in WCAG? Or is my brain so frazzled by the joy or having just helped t run Deafblind New Zealand's second bi-annual conference that I can't see the wood for the trees.
>
> Summary.
>
> Paragraph of normal text following a heading.
> It's read by Voiceover but Talkback only finds the heading
> It's real text - VO reads it.
> It's not 1.1.1, it's not 1.3.1 cos it's not the relationships that are the issue, or any of the 1.4 checkpoints
> It's not 2.1 cos it's not operable - it's just text.
>
> TL;DR - it's clearly a bug and I wouldn't care but the customer insists on having a WCAG guideline is possible.
>
> Thank you all in advance.
>
> Kevin Prince
>
>
> Kevin Prince
> Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant
> <Mail Attachment.jpeg>
> E = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Christchurch
> fostermoore.com <http://www.fostermoore.com/>;
> This email and its contents are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should contact the sender immediately, you must not use, copy or disclose any of the information in the email, and you must delete it from your system immediately.
> > > >

From: Detlev Fischer
Date: Fri, Jan 27 2023 3:27AM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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I think this is clearly a 1.3.1 Info and Relationships issue: Info is
visually available, but not programmatically.

Am 27.01.2023 um 04:40 schrieb Kevin Prince:
> I've had the scenario a couple of times recently on Mobile Apps, often
> on only one platform where a section of text is not read or even found
> by the usual swiping/exploring motions. As the other platform reads it
> I can't call it out under 1.1.1 and it's not really 2.1.1 cos it's not
> a control that I can't reach. Clearly it entirely breaches the spirit
> of Principle 1 - Perceivable but not the detail of any obvious
> checkpoint. Is this a hole in WCAG? Or is my brain so frazzled by the
> joy or having just helped t run Deafblind New Zealand's second
> bi-annual conference that I can't see the wood for the trees.
>
> Summary.
>
> Paragraph of normal text following a heading.
> It's read by Voiceover but Talkback only finds the heading
> It's real text - VO reads it.
> It's not 1.1.1, it's not 1.3.1 cos it's not the relationships that are
> the issue, or any of the 1.4 checkpoints
> It's not 2.1 cos it's not operable - it's just text.
>
> TL;DR - it's clearly a bug and I wouldn't care but the customer
> insists on having a WCAG guideline is possible.
>
> Thank you all in advance.
>
> Kevin Prince
>
> *Kevin Prince *
> Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant
>
> *E* = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Christchurch
>
> *fostermoore.com <http://www.fostermoore.com/>;*
>
> This email and its contents are confidential. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you should contact the sender immediately, you
> must not use, copy or disclose any of the information in the email,
> and you must delete it from your system immediately.
>
>
> > > List archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> --
Detlev Fischer
DIAS GmbH
(Testkreis is now part of DIAS GmbH)

Mobil +49 (0)157 57 57 57 45

http://www.dias.de
Beratung, Tests und Schulungen für barrierefreie Websites

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Fri, Jan 27 2023 3:28AM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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On 27/01/2023 10:27, Detlev Fischer wrote:
> I think this is clearly a 1.3.1 Info and Relationships issue: Info is
> visually available, but not programmatically.

Seconded. Possibly even touches on 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Steve Green
Date: Fri, Jan 27 2023 3:46AM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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I am wary of making such definitive claims of non-conformance based only on assistive technology behaviour. It may be a screen reader bug, so I would really want to see the code before declaring it a non-conformance. Has the behaviour been replicated on other devices with the same or different operating system and browser versions?

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 27 January 2023 10:29
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content

On 27/01/2023 10:27, Detlev Fischer wrote:
> I think this is clearly a 1.3.1 Info and Relationships issue: Info is
> visually available, but not programmatically.

Seconded. Possibly even touches on 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Detlev Fischer
Date: Fri, Jan 27 2023 7:52AM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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It is not uncommon that content in a native app is exposed in one OS,
but not the other.
Check for example comments in the YouTube native app: The comment's text
content is exposed (but badly, grouped with surrounding controls) on
iOS, but inaccessible to TalkBack on Android (here you just get the
controls).
Given that TalkBack is clearly able to expose similar content in other
apps (e.g. amazon, ebay) I think it fair to assume this is not a SR bug
but down to they way content is implemented (or automatically converted
from some dev framework).


Am 27.01.2023 um 11:46 schrieb Steve Green:
> I am wary of making such definitive claims of non-conformance based only on assistive technology behaviour. It may be a screen reader bug, so I would really want to see the code before declaring it a non-conformance. Has the behaviour been replicated on other devices with the same or different operating system and browser versions?
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: 27 January 2023 10:29
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
>
> On 27/01/2023 10:27, Detlev Fischer wrote:
>> I think this is clearly a 1.3.1 Info and Relationships issue: Info is
>> visually available, but not programmatically.
> Seconded. Possibly even touches on 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> https://www.splintered.co.uk/ | https://github.com/patrickhlauke https://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | https://www.deviantart.com/redux
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>
> > > > > > > --
Detlev Fischer
DIAS GmbH
(Testkreis is now part of DIAS GmbH)

Mobil +49 (0)157 57 57 57 45

http://www.dias.de
Beratung, Tests und Schulungen für barrierefreie Websites

From: Kevin Prince
Date: Sat, Jan 28 2023 7:54PM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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Definitely an Android bug which works perfectly in iOS.
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant

From: Kevin Prince
Date: Sat, Jan 28 2023 7:57PM
Subject: Re: Embarrassing question - text isn't read but it's neither a control nor is it non-text content
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That seems reasonable - it's a bug with their Android app and not uncommon by the sound of it. I'm very wary of saying that it's a non-comformance too Steve however, the customer is one of those we'll do WCAG first and only others if we can. If it were a missing text in both I'd still be struggling however as it's not in the letter of 1.3.1, and it's not 1.1.1 but clearly a failure of the spirit of 1.x Perceivable.
Kevin Prince
Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant