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Thread: re[2]: Table Haunts Me
Number of posts in this thread: 4 (In chronological order)
From: webmaster
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 5:17PM
Subject: re[2]: Table Haunts Me
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Sorry if I came off the wrong way.
Looking at the table, I can see no reason for there for be a colspan of 85 because there aren't even 85 columns in the table.
Still, forms should not be placed in tables anyway, IMO.
Karl
>> You're right, of course. But that's what I was asking. Why was the form >> set up like it is.
>> A programmer, no longer here, set them up that way.
>> I also agree the form is not accessible.
>> I was simply trying to discover if there was something I was overlooking
>> with the colspan="85",
>> colspan="21", etc. thing.
>> Thanks for responding-- I do appreciate it.
>> At 01:03 PM 7/31/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>> >I think the bigger question is why is this thing setup the way it is?
>> >colspan="85"?
>> >Are you trying to incorrectly hardcode the width?
>> >
>> >Also, why the use of <strong>? You're trying to make bold text. Ask
>> >yourself: "Should this be a heading?"
>> >If it is presentation you're trying to achieve with <strong>, might I
>> >suggest CSS? <span style="font-weight: bold;">blah</span>
>> >
>> >
>> >Since this is not tabular data, but rather a form, you should remake the >> >whole thing.
>> >Here's a start. Don't forget to label your form elements with their
>> labels.
>> >Use CSS to play with margin for each of these DIVs
>> >
>> ><h1 align="center">TITLE</h1>
>> >
>> >
>> ><div>TODAY'S DATE<br />
>> ><input class="input" title="Today's Date" value="January 22, 2003"
>> >name="TODAYS_DATE" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>REQUESTED BY (Name) <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Name Here"
>> >name="REQUESTED_BY" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>DIVISION<br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Division Here"
>> >name="DIVISION" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>EXTENSION <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Extension Here"
>> >name="EXTENSION" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>EMAIL<br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Email Address Here"
>> >name="Requestor_Email" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>AUTHOR (BOOK) <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Author Information Here"
>> >name="BOOK_AUTHOR" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>TITLE (BOOK OR JOURNAL) <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Book or Journal Title "
>> >name="BOOK_TITLE" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>PUBLISHER <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Article Publisher Here"
>> >name="ARTICLE_PUBLISHER" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>VOLUME<br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Publisher Here"
>> >name="PUBLISHER" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>YEAR <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Year Published In Here"
>> >name="YEAR" type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>EDITION <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Edition Here" name="EDITION"
>> type="text"
>> >/>
>> ></div>
>> ><div>PRICE <br />
>> > <input class="input" title="Enter Price Here" name="PRICE"
>> type="text" />
>> ></div>
>> ><div>
>> > <input title="Submit Request"
>> >type="text" value="Submit Request" name="Submit" />
>> ></div>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> Every time I see this table I wonder why the colspan is designated
>>
>> > so much
>> > >>
>> > >> larger than what it
>> > >> actually is.
>> >
>> > >> Is there a reason for a table to be coded in this manner? When I >> > insert
>> > >> the actual number of
>> > >> columns in "colspan", the table looks the same.
>> >
>> > >> Am so curious. Any ideas?
>> >
>> > >> Here's the code:
>> >
>> >
>> > >> <table title="Suggest a Title" cellspacing="0" width="90%"
>> border="0">
>> > >> <tbody>
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td title="Title" colspan="85">
>> > >> <h1 align="center">TITLE</h1>
>> > >> </td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td title="Today's Date" colspan="85"><span
>> > >> class="smaller"> <strong>TODAY'S DATE</strong></span><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Today's Date" value="January 22, 2003"
>> > >> name="TODAYS_DATE" /></td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Requestor's Name"
>> > >> colspan="36"><strong>REQUESTED
>> > >> BY (Name)</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Name Here" size="22"
>> > >> name="REQUESTED_BY" /></td>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Division"
>> > >> colspan="12"><strong>DIVISION</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Division Here"
>> size="10"
>> > >> name="DIVISION" /></td>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Extension"
>> > >> colspan="12"><strong>EXTENSION</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Extension Here" >> > size="10"
>> > >> name="EXTENSION" /></td>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Email"
>> > colspan="24"><strong>EMAIL</strong><br
>> > >> />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Requestor's Email Address Here"
>> > >> size="23"
>> > >> name="Requestor_Email" /></td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Enter Author"
>> colspan="85"><strong>AUTHOR
>> > >> (BOOK)</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Author Information Here"
>> size="70"
>> > >> name="BOOK_AUTHOR" /></td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Enter Book or Journal Title"
>> > >> colspan="85"><strong>TITLE (BOOK OR JOURNAL)</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Book or Journal Title "
>> > size="70" >> name="BOOK_TITLE" /></td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Publisher"
>> > >> colspan="85"><strong>PUBLISHER</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Article Publisher Here"
>> > size="70" >> name="ARTICLE_PUBLISHER" /></td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Publisher"
>> > >> colspan="42"><strong>VOLUME</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Publisher Here" size="10"
>> > >> name="PUBLISHER" /></td>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Year Published In"
>> > >> colspan="14"><strong>YEAR</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Year Published In Here"
>> > size="10" >> name="YEAR" /></td>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Edition"
>> > >> colspan="14"><strong>EDITION</strong><br />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Edition Here" size="10"
>> > name="EDITION"
>> > >> /></td>
>> > >> <td class="smaller" title="Price"
>> > colspan="14"><strong>PRICE</strong><br
>> > >> />
>> > >> <input class="input" title="Enter Price Here" size="10"
>> name="PRICE"
>> > >> /></td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> >
>> > >> <tr>
>> > >> <td title="SubmitButton" colspan="85"><input title="Submit
>> > Request" >> type="submit" value="Submit Request" name="Submit" />
>> </td>
>> > >> </tr>
>> > >> </table>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> Laurie Davis-Covin, Web Specialist/Writer
>> > >> National Institute of Standards and Technology
>> > >> 100 Bureau Drive
>> > >> Admin. Building, Room E 220
>> > >> Gaithersburg, MD 20899
>> > >> Ph: 301-975-8027
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> ----
>> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>> > >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Karl Groves
>> >
>> >AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
>> >
>> >Visit my favorite places:
>> >
>> >EightNineThree Records & Duplication
>> >http://www.eightninethree.com
>> >
>> >Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
>> >http://www.baltimorepunk.com
>> >
>> >PunkRockShows
>> >http://www.punkrockshows.com
>> >
>> >Theory X Design
>> >http://www.theoryxdesign.com
>> >
>> >United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
>> >http://www.neorescue.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----
>> >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>> >visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>> Laurie Davis-Covin, Writer/Editor
>> National Institute of Standards and Technology
>> 100 Bureau Drive
>> Admin. Building, Room E 220
>> Gaithersburg, MD 20899
>> Ph: 301-975-8027
>> ----
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
Karl Groves
AOL, MSN, YAHOO Users IM me at - "KarlCore"
Visit my favorite places:
EightNineThree Records & Duplication
http://www.eightninethree.com
Baltimore Punk & Hardcore
http://www.baltimorepunk.com
PunkRockShows
http://www.punkrockshows.com
Theory X Design
http://www.theoryxdesign.com
United States Neapolitan Mastiff Club's Rescue Program
http://www.neorescue.org
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From: chris
Date: Thu, Jul 31 2003 11:52PM
Subject: Browser detection and screen readers
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Hi
has anyone done server-side browser detection to detect a screen reader and
serve up an appropriate page layout (i.e. alternative css sheet)?
If so, is there a User Agent list somewhere that I'm just not finding?
Thanks
-chris
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From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Aug 01 2003 10:25AM
Subject: Re: Browser detection and screen readers
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Because many screen readers are supplements to existing Web browsers
(typically Internet Explorer), you really cannot detect the existence
of a screen reader on the server side, as the header requests indicate
that it is really a standard Web browser. And I agree with Karl -
detecting a screen reader to present different content does little for
true accessibility.
The only way I know of to detect the presence of a screen reader is to
use Flash to detect if the browser is monitoring for MSAA (Microsoft
Active Accessibility) events. This will only work with newer versions
of screen readers on Windows - to date, Jaws 4.5+ and Window Eyes
4.21+. And, the user must have the Flash player 6+ installed. Again,
such an approach is very limiting, yet possible. You can detect the
screen reader and redirect accordingly by adding
if (Accessibility.isActive()) {
getURL(screenreaderpage.htm);
} else {
getURL(normalpage.htm);
}
to a keyframe in your Flash movie.
Jared Smith
WebAIM (Web Accessibility In Mind)
Center for Persons with Disabilities
Utah State University
***************
On Friday, August 01, 2003 you sent:
c> Hi
c> has anyone done server-side browser detection to detect a screen reader and
c> serve up an appropriate page layout (i.e. alternative css sheet)?
c> If so, is there a User Agent list somewhere that I'm just not finding?
c> Thanks
c> -chris
***************
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From: Kynn Bartlett
Date: Fri, Aug 01 2003 6:56PM
Subject: Browser Detection, True Accessibility, and CC/PP
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On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 09:22 AM, Jared Smith wrote:
> Because many screen readers are supplements to existing Web browsers
> (typically Internet Explorer), you really cannot detect the existence
> of a screen reader on the server side, as the header requests indicate
> that it is really a standard Web browser. And I agree with Karl -
> detecting a screen reader to present different content does little for
> true accessibility.
Hold on a sec -- 'true accessibility' means "whether or not some person
can use this Web site" where that person is whoever's accessing the
site at the time.
Detecting a screen reader to present different -- not content, but
presentation of that content -- is indeed accessible, and it is simply
an application of allowing the user to specify their choices and
displaying an appropriate rendition of the content.
This does a _lot_ for 'true accessibility', if it can be done reliably
and consistently -- as well as respectful of the user's expressed
desires. This is a good thing, not a bad thing, so let's not be
too quick to discard the technique as not being helpful.
What we need is the following:
1. Browsers that implement transmission of CC/PP profiles.
2. Accessibility APIs that support passing of CC/PP profiles
between "user agent components" (ATs, browsers, etc) so
they can be consolidated in the browsers.
3. Assistive technologies which use such an API to communicate
their capabilities (in a self-identifying manner) to the
CC/PP-enabled browser.
4. Servers which support the reading of CC/PP profiles.
5. Techniques for _presentation_ restructuring based on
CC/PP profiles.
#4 is being worked on by the CC/PP folks, as I understand things.
#5 is what Edapta [RIP] and others have worked on (it's my
personal area of interest). #1, #2, and #3 require vendor
cooperation -- it may require begging and pleading with the
open source community if Microsoft (or Apple) are not willing
to do the hard work themselves on getting this set up.
--Kynn
--
Kynn Bartlett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > http://kynn.com
Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain http://idyllmtn.com
Shock & Awe Blog http://shock-awe.info
Author, CSS in 24 Hours http://cssin24hours.com
Inland Anti-Empire Blog http://inlandantiempire.org
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