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Thread: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond

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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Tech
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 12:00PM
Subject: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
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<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">At Webaim.org, I can find
some fairly dated articles (2005) about Ajax and accessibility. Could
someone please point me to a good list of links with some really
current discussion about Ajax adoption, standards, etc. <br>
<br>
With so many Ajax-based applications now online, and coming, I'm
particularly curious about how government and education are adjusting
to this new world of interface widgets. <br>
Perhaps I am just a dumb, selfish developer, but it would seem that the
days of the non-ajaxed interface are numbered.&nbsp; Economic realities, and
the 80/20 rule will conspire to ensure that few new projects are just
not going to expend much effort in building dual interfaces for the
majority of applications.&nbsp; If for no other reason, than non-javascript
interfaces are hard, and painfully boring to work on.&nbsp; Who even wants
to do that work in most business environments, unless forced to? <br>
<br>
&nbsp;Google Docs doesn't seem to be too concerned with addressing this, nor
countless other sites.&nbsp;&nbsp; So what does this mean, long term?&nbsp; Smarter,
more informed people than I must be discussing this realistically, and
eloquently, but I'm having trouble finding anything very comprehensive
or current (except here, of course).<br>
<br>
Thoughts, links, welcomed.<br>
<br>
<br>
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From: Phil Teare
Date: Tue, Jul 15 2008 12:50PM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
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While Docs itself is left laking a little in this respect, Raman and the
gang at Mountain View (e.g. Charles of FireVox fame) are doing rather a lot
to improve matters. There google group is both fairly active and fairly
responsive to quereys. e.g. they fixed the alt textless buttons on iGoogle
for me and another requesting individual. Also check their axsjax concept.
Its a nice idea... Which may yet become properly useful.

Ask for what you want and see what they say...?

Re the bigger picture, check out Chris's scriptingenabled site (and event if
you can).

I've enjoyed Steve Faulkner talking on the subject. I'm pretty sure there's
a few podcasts of him descussing the ins and outs of the 'ajax problem'.

While very little of what I do is directly 'proper' ajax, its a kin to it,
and is proving useful to many, namely web based assistive technology using
ajaxia techniques to deliver TTS and rich accessible interfaces...

So it's not all bad.

Phil Teare,
CTO & Chief Architect,
http://www.talklets.com from Textic Ltd.
(44) [0] 208 4452871

2008/7/15 Tech < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> At Webaim.org, I can find some fairly dated articles (2005) about Ajax and
> accessibility. Could someone please point me to a good list of links with
> some really current discussion about Ajax adoption, standards, etc.
>
> With so many Ajax-based applications now online, and coming, I'm
> particularly curious about how government and education are adjusting to
> this new world of interface widgets.
> Perhaps I am just a dumb, selfish developer, but it would seem that the
> days of the non-ajaxed interface are numbered. Economic realities, and the
> 80/20 rule will conspire to ensure that few new projects are just not going
> to expend much effort in building dual interfaces for the majority of
> applications. If for no other reason, than non-javascript interfaces are
> hard, and painfully boring to work on. Who even wants to do that work in
> most business environments, unless forced to?
>
> Google Docs doesn't seem to be too concerned with addressing this, nor
> countless other sites. So what does this mean, long term? Smarter, more
> informed people than I must be discussing this realistically, and
> eloquently, but I'm having trouble finding anything very comprehensive or
> current (except here, of course).
>
> Thoughts, links, welcomed.
>
>
>
>

From: Sandra Clark
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 8:40AM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
← Previous message | Next message →

Check out WAI-ARIA which attempts to address Accessibility and RIA's
(specifically Ajax).



Both WCAG 2.0 and the Section 508 refresh address ARIA in their requirements
for dynamic pages to provide properties, roles and states, which WAI-ARIA
specifies.



Firefox 2+, IE8 Beta 1 currently support ARIA as does Window-Eyes 5.5, Jaws
9 and newer versions of the Mac OS. Javascript frameworks supporting it are
AxsJax and Dojo Toolkit. JQuery will be providing it in a future buid.





Sandra Clark

=============

http://www.shayna.com <http://www.shayna.com/>;

Training and Consulting in CSS and Accessibility

Team Fusebox







From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tech
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:51 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond



At Webaim.org, I can find some fairly dated articles (2005) about Ajax and
accessibility. Could someone please point me to a good list of links with
some really current discussion about Ajax adoption, standards, etc.

With so many Ajax-based applications now online, and coming, I'm
particularly curious about how government and education are adjusting to
this new world of interface widgets.
Perhaps I am just a dumb, selfish developer, but it would seem that the days
of the non-ajaxed interface are numbered. Economic realities, and the 80/20
rule will conspire to ensure that few new projects are just not going to
expend much effort in building dual interfaces for the majority of
applications. If for no other reason, than non-javascript interfaces are
hard, and painfully boring to work on. Who even wants to do that work in
most business environments, unless forced to?

Google Docs doesn't seem to be too concerned with addressing this, nor
countless other sites. So what does this mean, long term? Smarter, more
informed people than I must be discussing this realistically, and
eloquently, but I'm having trouble finding anything very comprehensive or
current (except here, of course).

Thoughts, links, welcomed.



From: Phil Teare
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes and GWT of course.

And I'm finding good old MSDN quite useful re ARIA. Its already listing the
various objects, properties, etc... amongst its DHTML pages.

But its worth noting that for many, ARIA won't be useful for a few years
yet. However acceptance is looking very positive alround for the future.


Phil


Phil Teare,
CTO & Chief Architect,
http://www.textic.com from Textic Ltd.
(44) [0] 208 4452871

2008/7/16 Sandra Clark < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:

> Check out WAI-ARIA which attempts to address Accessibility and RIA's
> (specifically Ajax).
>
>
>
> Both WCAG 2.0 and the Section 508 refresh address ARIA in their
> requirements
> for dynamic pages to provide properties, roles and states, which WAI-ARIA
> specifies.
>
>
>
> Firefox 2+, IE8 Beta 1 currently support ARIA as does Window-Eyes 5.5, Jaws
> 9 and newer versions of the Mac OS. Javascript frameworks supporting it
> are
> AxsJax and Dojo Toolkit. JQuery will be providing it in a future buid.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sandra Clark
>
> =============
>
> http://www.shayna.com <http://www.shayna.com/>;
>
> Training and Consulting in CSS and Accessibility
>
> Team Fusebox
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tech
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:51 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
>
>
>
> At Webaim.org, I can find some fairly dated articles (2005) about Ajax and
> accessibility. Could someone please point me to a good list of links with
> some really current discussion about Ajax adoption, standards, etc.
>
> With so many Ajax-based applications now online, and coming, I'm
> particularly curious about how government and education are adjusting to
> this new world of interface widgets.
> Perhaps I am just a dumb, selfish developer, but it would seem that the
> days
> of the non-ajaxed interface are numbered. Economic realities, and the
> 80/20
> rule will conspire to ensure that few new projects are just not going to
> expend much effort in building dual interfaces for the majority of
> applications. If for no other reason, than non-javascript interfaces are
> hard, and painfully boring to work on. Who even wants to do that work in
> most business environments, unless forced to?
>
> Google Docs doesn't seem to be too concerned with addressing this, nor
> countless other sites. So what does this mean, long term? Smarter, more
> informed people than I must be discussing this realistically, and
> eloquently, but I'm having trouble finding anything very comprehensive or
> current (except here, of course).
>
> Thoughts, links, welcomed.
>
>
>
>

From: Shawn Henry
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 9:30AM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
← Previous message | Next message →

Sandra Clark wrote:
> Check out WAI-ARIA which attempts to address Accessibility and RIA's
> (specifically Ajax).

Thanks for sharing this info, Sandra.
For others, more details:

WAI-ARIA is the Accessible Rich Internet Applications Suite from the W3C Web Accessibility initiative (WAI). The Overview page is the best starting point:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria

The WAI-ARIA FAQ answers questions such as: "What happens in current and older browsers when WAI-ARIA is implemented?" and "As a Web content developer, what should I do with WAI-ARIA now?" See:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/aria/faq

Let me know if you have other questions about WAI-ARIA that we might want to cover when we update the FAQ...

~Shawn

-----
Shawn Lawton Henry, W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/
phone: +1-617-395-7664
e-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

###

>
> Both WCAG 2.0 and the Section 508 refresh address ARIA in their requirements
> for dynamic pages to provide properties, roles and states, which WAI-ARIA
> specifies.
>
>
>
> Firefox 2+, IE8 Beta 1 currently support ARIA as does Window-Eyes 5.5, Jaws
> 9 and newer versions of the Mac OS. Javascript frameworks supporting it are
> AxsJax and Dojo Toolkit. JQuery will be providing it in a future buid.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sandra Clark
>
> =============
>
> http://www.shayna.com <http://www.shayna.com/>;
>
> Training and Consulting in CSS and Accessibility
>
> Team Fusebox
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tech
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:51 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
>
>
>
> At Webaim.org, I can find some fairly dated articles (2005) about Ajax and
> accessibility. Could someone please point me to a good list of links with
> some really current discussion about Ajax adoption, standards, etc.
>
> With so many Ajax-based applications now online, and coming, I'm
> particularly curious about how government and education are adjusting to
> this new world of interface widgets.
> Perhaps I am just a dumb, selfish developer, but it would seem that the days
> of the non-ajaxed interface are numbered. Economic realities, and the 80/20
> rule will conspire to ensure that few new projects are just not going to
> expend much effort in building dual interfaces for the majority of
> applications. If for no other reason, than non-javascript interfaces are
> hard, and painfully boring to work on. Who even wants to do that work in
> most business environments, unless forced to?
>
> Google Docs doesn't seem to be too concerned with addressing this, nor
> countless other sites. So what does this mean, long term? Smarter, more
> informed people than I must be discussing this realistically, and
> eloquently, but I'm having trouble finding anything very comprehensive or
> current (except here, of course).
>
> Thoughts, links, welcomed.
>
>
>
>

From: Christian Heilmann
Date: Wed, Jul 16 2008 7:20PM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
← Previous message | Next message →

I just today gave a talk at AbilityNet about it:

http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/again-with-the-ajax-accessibility


From: Tech
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 7:10PM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
← Previous message | Next message →

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@thank you Shawn, Sandra, et al.<br>
<br>
I think Dojo is doing a nice job of focusing on accessibility, but I am
already knee-deep in notes about problems with it.&nbsp; I was wondering if
perhaps it might be useful to set up a forum where accessibility
experts could work directly with widget developers out in the open, and
help all developers understand the issues better. &nbsp; There are many
frameworks being actively developed, and I think they could all be
doing more, while Aria, or other standards evolve.&nbsp; This just seems
useful to me, but I could be all wet. <br>
<br>
Is there one set of widgets out there, where MOST of the user interface
passes muster?&nbsp; Is there a true AcidTest&nbsp; site for catching all the bad
ideas?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Shawn Henry wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Sandra Clark wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Check out WAI-ARIA which attempts to address Accessibility and RIA's
(specifically Ajax).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
Thanks for sharing this info, Sandra.
For others, more details:

WAI-ARIA is the Accessible Rich Internet Applications Suite from the W3C Web Accessibility initiative (WAI). The Overview page is the best starting point:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria">http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/aria<;/a>

The WAI-ARIA FAQ answers questions such as: "What happens in current and older browsers when WAI-ARIA is implemented?" and "As a Web content developer, what should I do with WAI-ARIA now?" See:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.w3.org/WAI/aria/faq">http://www.w3.org/WAI/aria/faq<;/a>

Let me know if you have other questions about WAI-ARIA that we might want to cover when we update the FAQ...

~Shawn

-----
Shawn Lawton Henry, W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
about: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/">http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/<;/a>
phone: +1-617-395-7664
e-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = </a>

###

</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Both WCAG 2.0 and the Section 508 refresh address ARIA in their requirements
for dynamic pages to provide properties, roles and states, which WAI-ARIA
specifies.



Firefox 2+, IE8 Beta 1 currently support ARIA as does Window-Eyes 5.5, Jaws
9 and newer versions of the Mac OS. Javascript frameworks supporting it are
AxsJax and Dojo Toolkit. JQuery will be providing it in a future buid.





Sandra Clark

=============

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.shayna.com">http://www.shayna.com<;/a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.shayna.com/">&lt;http://www.shayna.com/&;gt;</a>

Training and Consulting in CSS and Accessibility

Team Fusebox







From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = "> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = </a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = </a>] On Behalf Of Tech
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:51 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond



At Webaim.org, I can find some fairly dated articles (2005) about Ajax and
accessibility. Could someone please point me to a good list of links with
some really current discussion about Ajax adoption, standards, etc.

With so many Ajax-based applications now online, and coming, I'm
particularly curious about how government and education are adjusting to
this new world of interface widgets.
Perhaps I am just a dumb, selfish developer, but it would seem that the days
of the non-ajaxed interface are numbered. Economic realities, and the 80/20
rule will conspire to ensure that few new projects are just not going to
expend much effort in building dual interfaces for the majority of
applications. If for no other reason, than non-javascript interfaces are
hard, and painfully boring to work on. Who even wants to do that work in
most business environments, unless forced to?

Google Docs doesn't seem to be too concerned with addressing this, nor
countless other sites. So what does this mean, long term? Smarter, more
informed people than I must be discussing this realistically, and
eloquently, but I'm having trouble finding anything very comprehensive or
current (except here, of course).

Thoughts, links, welcomed.

From: Tech
Date: Thu, Jul 17 2008 7:40PM
Subject: Re: Ajax, circa 2008 and beyond
← Previous message | No next message

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@Christian,<br>
<br>
<a
href="http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/again-with-the-ajax-accessibility">Great
presentation.</a>&nbsp; Thank you.&nbsp; I know it will assist a number of people
in discussing this stuff more easily.<br>
<br>
I was wondering if perhaps you, or anyone, could direct me to some
model site where MOST common widgets -- and especially things like
trees, drag and drop lists,&nbsp; accordions, sliders, grids, and other
dynamic components are considered fully ARIA-compliant?&nbsp;&nbsp; I would
really like to see a grid, or spreadsheet demo, fully annotated,&nbsp; where
each user mouse-based interaction, and its accessible counterpart, was
clearly illustrated.&nbsp; Is there such a site?&nbsp; If it was amid the links
others offered, I missed it.<br>
<br>
Everyday, I speak to developers who seem to be talking one thing, while
ARIA-advocates are talking another.&nbsp; I need to really to see the best
of current breed in action to really get this better.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Christian Heilmann wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = " type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I just today gave a talk at AbilityNet about it:

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/again-with-the-ajax-accessibility">http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/again-with-the-ajax-accessibility<;/a>

</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
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