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Thread: Re: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
Number of posts in this thread: 4 (In chronological order)
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Aug 19 2009 10:25AM
Subject: Re: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
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Just like if you wanted this table to be accessible in HTML, you are going to need to use headers and id attributes.
Thanks,
AWK
Andrew Kirkpatrick
Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
From: Langum, Michael J [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:48 AM
To: Duff Johnson; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; Andrew Kirkpatrick; Don Barrett; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
You guys are my "go to" people for difficult PDF/accessibility issues. If anyone has time, I'd really appreciate some help on this.
I have been given a large document with many complex rule tables like this: http://www.opm.gov/_mike/test/PDF-Issues/BadTableExample.pdf.
You'll notice that the "IF" part of the rules covers columns 2 - 4, and the "THEN" part of the rules covers columns 5 - 8.
Also, in many cases, cells span multiple rows.
What is the best way to work with this in PDF tagging?
I'm sure I can't simply make all the cells in the first column be <th> and add "scope=row".
Would it be enough to make all the cells in the "IF" columns be <th> and add "scope=row"?
Do I need to explicitly copy and paste the contents of all the related "IF" cells, into the "alternate text" for each cell in the "THEN" cells?
Are there reasonable alternatives?
-- Mike
From: Dona Patrick
Date: Wed, Aug 19 2009 10:35AM
Subject: Re: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
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Andrew,
Can you point us to documentation on how to use id attributes? I asked you
on twitter a while ago and you said a document was being prepared.
Thanks,
Dona Patrick
http://accessdp.wordpress.com
@cedarwaxwing (on twitter)
On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> Just like if you wanted this table to be accessible in HTML, you are going
> to need to use headers and id attributes.
>
> Thanks,
> AWK
>
> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>
> Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
>
> Adobe Systems
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> From: Langum, Michael J [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:48 AM
> To: Duff Johnson; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; Andrew Kirkpatrick; Don
> Barrett; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
>
> You guys are my "go to" people for difficult PDF/accessibility issues. If
> anyone has time, I'd really appreciate some help on this.
>
>
> I have been given a large document with many complex rule tables like this:
> http://www.opm.gov/_mike/test/PDF-Issues/BadTableExample.pdf.
>
> You'll notice that the "IF" part of the rules covers columns 2 - 4, and the
> "THEN" part of the rules covers columns 5 - 8.
>
> Also, in many cases, cells span multiple rows.
>
> What is the best way to work with this in PDF tagging?
>
> I'm sure I can't simply make all the cells in the first column be <th> and
> add "scope=row".
>
> Would it be enough to make all the cells in the "IF" columns be <th> and
> add "scope=row"?
>
> Do I need to explicitly copy and paste the contents of all the related "IF"
> cells, into the "alternate text" for each cell in the "THEN" cells?
>
> Are there reasonable alternatives?
> -- Mike
>
>
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Date: Wed, Aug 19 2009 10:40AM
Subject: Re: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
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Take a look at the information on tables in http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/acrobat/pdf/A9-pdf-access-repair-workflow.pdf (around page 30-33)
Dona, this is the document that was referred to earlier.
Thanks,
AWK
Andrew Kirkpatrick
Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
From: Langum, Michael J [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:30 PM
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick
Subject: RE: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
Can I use headers and ids in Acrobat tags? Are there instructions somewhere on how to add those attributes?
-- Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 12:23 PM
To: Langum, Michael J; Duff Johnson; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; Don Barrett; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: RE: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
Just like if you wanted this table to be accessible in HTML, you are going to need to use headers and id attributes.
Thanks,
AWK
Andrew Kirkpatrick
Senior Product Manager, Accessibility
Adobe Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
From: Langum, Michael J [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:48 AM
To: Duff Johnson; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; Andrew Kirkpatrick; Don Barrett; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
You guys are my "go to" people for difficult PDF/accessibility issues. If anyone has time, I'd really appreciate some help on this.
I have been given a large document with many complex rule tables like this: http://www.opm.gov/_mike/test/PDF-Issues/BadTableExample.pdf.
You'll notice that the "IF" part of the rules covers columns 2 - 4, and the "THEN" part of the rules covers columns 5 - 8.
Also, in many cases, cells span multiple rows.
What is the best way to work with this in PDF tagging?
I'm sure I can't simply make all the cells in the first column be <th> and add "scope=row".
Would it be enough to make all the cells in the "IF" columns be <th> and add "scope=row"?
Do I need to explicitly copy and paste the contents of all the related "IF" cells, into the "alternate text" for each cell in the "THEN" cells?
Are there reasonable alternatives?
-- Mike
From: Steve Green
Date: Wed, Aug 19 2009 11:05AM
Subject: Re: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
← Previous message | No next message
From: Langum, Michael J [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 11:48 AM
To: Duff Johnson; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ; Andrew Kirkpatrick; Don
Barrett; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Complex "Rule" table in PDF
You guys are my "go to" people for difficult PDF/accessibility issues. If
anyone has time, I'd really appreciate some help on this.
I have been given a large document with many complex rule tables like this:
http://www.opm.gov/_mike/test/PDF-Issues/BadTableExample.pdf.
You'll notice that the "IF" part of the rules covers columns 2 - 4, and the
"THEN" part of the rules covers columns 5 - 8.
Also, in many cases, cells span multiple rows.
What is the best way to work with this in PDF tagging?
I'm sure I can't simply make all the cells in the first column be <th> and
add "scope=row".
Would it be enough to make all the cells in the "IF" columns be <th> and add
"scope=row"?
Do I need to explicitly copy and paste the contents of all the related "IF"
cells, into the "alternate text" for each cell in the "THEN" cells?
Are there reasonable alternatives?
-- Mike
________________
Mike,
Would I be correct in assuming that you are primarily concerned with screen
reader users (they are the main beneficiaries of semantic markup of this
nature)? In my experience the table will be virtually incomprehensible even
if marked up correctly.
Data tables are difficult enough to comprehend and navigate, but colspans
and rowspans complicate matters massively. This is because screen readers
are unable to inform the user about the colspans and rowspans, and the same
spanned cell can appear to have different row or column numbers depending on
how you navigate to it. Even the most proficient users struggle (and often
fail) to understand tables like this.
My recommendation would be to eliminate the colspans and rowspans and repeat
the data where necessary. It may look unusual but it will be far more
comprehensible.
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd