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Number of posts in this thread: 15 (In chronological order)

From: Ro
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 9:45AM
Subject: Help with Echo accessibility
No previous message | Next message →

Hi folks,

If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.

The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
"follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
I respond to the Echo guy some more.

If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
I could tell them.

I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
else to do.

Here's a post to test the comments:

http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html

Thanks in advance...

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

From: Carin Headrick
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 2:30PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread, right?

I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
human errors do tend to happen.

Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
kinda pay for their service.

Carin

On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>
> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>
> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
> I could tell them.
>
> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
> else to do.
>
> Here's a post to test the comments:
>
> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>

From: Patrick Burke
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 2:51PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
drawn in from somewhere else & does not show up with View Source. The
whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.

The only clue I can give is that "Post" & "Cancel" are announced (by
Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow" & "Echo" (with its sublist of
options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
events for these items & left out keyboard access. Device-independent
event handlers are usually best.

Patrick

At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread, right?
>
>I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
>human errors do tend to happen.
>
>Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
>kinda pay for their service.
>
>Carin
>
>On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
> > with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
> > system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
> > email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
> > but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
> > nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
> >
> > The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
> > address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
> > great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
> > arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
> > "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
> > want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
> > I respond to the Echo guy some more.
> >
> > If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
> > problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
> > I could tell them.
> >
> > I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
> > else to do.
> >
> > Here's a post to test the comments:
> >
> > http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
> >
> > Thanks in advance...
> >
> > ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
> >
> > http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/


--
Patrick J. Burke

Coordinator
UCLA Disabilities &
Computing Program

Phone: 310 206-6004
E-mail: burke <at> ucla. edu
Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Ro
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 3:12PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, I was having issues with Voiceover freezing when I hit reply.
However, that seems to have been fixed after the latest Voiceover
updates. At least it doesn't freeze when I submit a comment. But yeah,
replying within a thread didn't work. It did nothing just like the
follow word did.

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

In the Center of the Roof

http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/

On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:28 PM, Carin Headrick wrote:

> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread,
> right?
>
> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
> human errors do tend to happen.
>
> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
> kinda pay for their service.
>
> Carin
>
> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>> help
>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>
>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>> hear
>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>
>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
>> I could tell them.
>>
>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
>> else to do.
>>
>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>
>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>
>> Thanks in advance...
>>
>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>
>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>>
>>

From: Ro
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 3:18PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Patrick, thank you for that info about the buttons. I was thinking it
had to be something along those lines. Looks like Jaws can still see
it but Voiceover can't. I'm looking forward to what the other
Voiceover person has to say because if it's just me, I won't keep
bugging Echo. I'm do for an overhaul anyway. However, that still seems
like an issue from an accessibility standpoint that should be addressed.

Carin, did you get Patrick's message? We should save that and show the
Echo peeps.

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.

On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:

> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
> drawn in from somewhere else & does not show up with View Source. The
> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>
> The only clue I can give is that "Post" & "Cancel" are announced (by
> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow" & "Echo" (with its sublist of
> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
> events for these items & left out keyboard access. Device-independent
> event handlers are usually best.
>
> Patrick
>
> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread,
>> right?
>>
>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email.
>> But
>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>
>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since
>> we
>> kinda pay for their service.
>>
>> Carin
>>
>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>>> help
>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really
>>> nice,
>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>
>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which
>>> is
>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out,
>>> just
>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>>> hear
>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone
>>> before
>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>
>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because
>>> then
>>> I could tell them.
>>>
>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know
>>> what
>>> else to do.
>>>
>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>
>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>
>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>
>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>
> --
> Patrick J. Burke
>
> Coordinator
> UCLA Disabilities &
> Computing Program
>
> Phone: 310 206-6004
> E-mail: burke <at> ucla. edu
> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 5:54PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Well, Randi, it looks like I have a lot to learn about using VoiceOver. I couldn't get it to work smoothly with either Firefox or Safari. It announces page titles, but then tells me the close button is there, and that's it.

But with or without VoiceOver, I can't operate the comment system with keyboard only. I can comment on a post, but I can't even get into the other comments to find out what others have said. Once I post my comment, I'm right back in the comment box, and tabbing does nothing but take me through it in a closed loop. Once I get to the "Post" button, hitting Return and hitting Tab is the same except that Return posts a comment. As soon as my comment is posted, the focus cycles back up to the "Login" field (which seems to be just a place for your name, not a true login field) in the comment form. If I try to tab past the box without commenting, the focus follows the same cycle. The only difference is that it skips from "Post" back to "Login" without posting a comment.

I wonder if this form depends on some of the nonstandard behavior of IE to operate. That would explain why standards-compliant browsers can't operate it, wouldn't it?

Cliff

>>> Ro < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 10/25/10 4:10 PM >>>
Patrick, thank you for that info about the buttons. I was thinking it
had to be something along those lines. Looks like Jaws can still see
it but Voiceover can't. I'm looking forward to what the other
Voiceover person has to say because if it's just me, I won't keep
bugging Echo. I'm do for an overhaul anyway. However, that still seems
like an issue from an accessibility standpoint that should be addressed.

Carin, did you get Patrick's message? We should save that and show the
Echo peeps.

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.

On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:

> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
> drawn in from somewhere else & does not show up with View Source. The
> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>
> The only clue I can give is that "Post" & "Cancel" are announced (by
> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow" & "Echo" (with its sublist of
> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
> events for these items & left out keyboard access. Device-independent
> event handlers are usually best.
>
> Patrick
>
> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread,
>> right?
>>
>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email.
>> But
>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>
>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since
>> we
>> kinda pay for their service.
>>
>> Carin
>>
>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>>> help
>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really
>>> nice,
>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>
>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which
>>> is
>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out,
>>> just
>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>>> hear
>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone
>>> before
>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>
>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because
>>> then
>>> I could tell them.
>>>
>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know
>>> what
>>> else to do.
>>>
>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>
>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>
>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>
>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>
> --
> Patrick J. Burke
>
> Coordinator
> UCLA Disabilities &
> Computing Program
>
> Phone: 310 206-6004
> E-mail: burke <at> ucla. edu
> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>

From: Carin Headrick
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 6:33PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

I know I could use the form with Firefox and JAWS. If you navigate by
button and then arrow down you can see the other comments.

Carin

On 25/10/2010 7:52 PM, Cliff Tyllick wrote:
> Well, Randi, it looks like I have a lot to learn about using VoiceOver. I couldn't get it to work smoothly with either Firefox or Safari. It announces page titles, but then tells me the close button is there, and that's it.
>
> But with or without VoiceOver, I can't operate the comment system with keyboard only. I can comment on a post, but I can't even get into the other comments to find out what others have said. Once I post my comment, I'm right back in the comment box, and tabbing does nothing but take me through it in a closed loop. Once I get to the "Post" button, hitting Return and hitting Tab is the same except that Return posts a comment. As soon as my comment is posted, the focus cycles back up to the "Login" field (which seems to be just a place for your name, not a true login field) in the comment form. If I try to tab past the box without commenting, the focus follows the same cycle. The only difference is that it skips from "Post" back to "Login" without posting a comment.
>
> I wonder if this form depends on some of the nonstandard behavior of IE to operate. That would explain why standards-compliant browsers can't operate it, wouldn't it?
>
> Cliff
>
>>>> Ro< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 10/25/10 4:10 PM>>>
> Patrick, thank you for that info about the buttons. I was thinking it
> had to be something along those lines. Looks like Jaws can still see
> it but Voiceover can't. I'm looking forward to what the other
> Voiceover person has to say because if it's just me, I won't keep
> bugging Echo. I'm do for an overhaul anyway. However, that still seems
> like an issue from an accessibility standpoint that should be addressed.
>
> Carin, did you get Patrick's message? We should save that and show the
> Echo peeps.
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
> For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
>
>> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
>> drawn in from somewhere else& does not show up with View Source. The
>> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>>
>> The only clue I can give is that "Post"& "Cancel" are announced (by
>> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow"& "Echo" (with its sublist of
>> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
>> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
>> events for these items& left out keyboard access. Device-independent
>> event handlers are usually best.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread,
>>> right?
>>>
>>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email.
>>> But
>>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>>
>>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since
>>> we
>>> kinda pay for their service.
>>>
>>> Carin
>>>
>>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>>>> help
>>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really
>>>> nice,
>>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which
>>>> is
>>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out,
>>>> just
>>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>>>> hear
>>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone
>>>> before
>>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>>
>>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because
>>>> then
>>>> I could tell them.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know
>>>> what
>>>> else to do.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>>
>>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>
>>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>>
>>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>>
>> --
>> Patrick J. Burke
>>
>> Coordinator
>> UCLA Disabilities&
>> Computing Program
>>
>> Phone: 310 206-6004
>> E-mail: burke<at> ucla. edu
>> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>

From: Carin Headrick
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 6:42PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

But I use JAWS and can press enter on them and they work for me. So what
makes the way VO handles them different than JAWS?

On 25/10/2010 4:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
> drawn in from somewhere else& does not show up with View Source. The
> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>
> The only clue I can give is that "Post"& "Cancel" are announced (by
> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow"& "Echo" (with its sublist of
> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
> events for these items& left out keyboard access. Device-independent
> event handlers are usually best.
>
> Patrick
>
> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread, right?
>>
>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>
>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
>> kinda pay for their service.
>>
>> Carin
>>
>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>
>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>
>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
>>> I could tell them.
>>>
>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
>>> else to do.
>>>
>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>
>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>
>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>
>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
> --
> Patrick J. Burke
>
> Coordinator
> UCLA Disabilities&
> Computing Program
>
> Phone: 310 206-6004
> E-mail: burke<at> ucla. edu
> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>

From: Ro
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 7:18PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Wow haha, I think the problem you're having is using the tab key. I
never tab. I know in Jaws you do, but with Voiceover, you use the VO
keys to navigate, they being control and option together, plus your
arrow keys. So that might be part of the problem that you're having,
because I have more access than that for the comments. Thanks for
looking!

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

Its an adventure, said Fred.

On Oct 25, 2010, at 4:52 PM, Cliff Tyllick wrote:

> Well, Randi, it looks like I have a lot to learn about using
> VoiceOver. I couldn't get it to work smoothly with either Firefox or
> Safari. It announces page titles, but then tells me the close button
> is there, and that's it.
>
> But with or without VoiceOver, I can't operate the comment system
> with keyboard only. I can comment on a post, but I can't even get
> into the other comments to find out what others have said. Once I
> post my comment, I'm right back in the comment box, and tabbing does
> nothing but take me through it in a closed loop. Once I get to the
> "Post" button, hitting Return and hitting Tab is the same except
> that Return posts a comment. As soon as my comment is posted, the
> focus cycles back up to the "Login" field (which seems to be just a
> place for your name, not a true login field) in the comment form. If
> I try to tab past the box without commenting, the focus follows the
> same cycle. The only difference is that it skips from "Post" back to
> "Login" without posting a comment.
>
> I wonder if this form depends on some of the nonstandard behavior of
> IE to operate. That would explain why standards-compliant browsers
> can't operate it, wouldn't it?
>
> Cliff
>
>>>> Ro < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 10/25/10 4:10 PM >>>
> Patrick, thank you for that info about the buttons. I was thinking it
> had to be something along those lines. Looks like Jaws can still see
> it but Voiceover can't. I'm looking forward to what the other
> Voiceover person has to say because if it's just me, I won't keep
> bugging Echo. I'm do for an overhaul anyway. However, that still seems
> like an issue from an accessibility standpoint that should be
> addressed.
>
> Carin, did you get Patrick's message? We should save that and show the
> Echo peeps.
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
> For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
>
>> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
>> drawn in from somewhere else & does not show up with View Source. The
>> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>>
>> The only clue I can give is that "Post" & "Cancel" are announced (by
>> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow" & "Echo" (with its sublist of
>> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
>> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
>> events for these items & left out keyboard access. Device-independent
>> event handlers are usually best.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread,
>>> right?
>>>
>>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her,
>>> so
>>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email.
>>> But
>>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>>
>>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since
>>> we
>>> kinda pay for their service.
>>>
>>> Carin
>>>
>>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>>>> help
>>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really
>>>> nice,
>>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which
>>>> is
>>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out,
>>>> just
>>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>>>> hear
>>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an
>>>> email? I
>>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone
>>>> before
>>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>>
>>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because
>>>> then
>>>> I could tell them.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know
>>>> what
>>>> else to do.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>>
>>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>
>>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>>
>>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Patrick J. Burke
>>
>> Coordinator
>> UCLA Disabilities &
>> Computing Program
>>
>> Phone: 310 206-6004
>> E-mail: burke <at> ucla. edu
>> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>

From: Ro
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 7:24PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh and Cliff, Voiceover won't work with FF. You are stuck with
Safari. :)

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

Its an adventure, said Fred.

On Oct 25, 2010, at 4:52 PM, Cliff Tyllick wrote:

> Well, Randi, it looks like I have a lot to learn about using
> VoiceOver. I couldn't get it to work smoothly with either Firefox or
> Safari. It announces page titles, but then tells me the close button
> is there, and that's it.
>
> But with or without VoiceOver, I can't operate the comment system
> with keyboard only. I can comment on a post, but I can't even get
> into the other comments to find out what others have said. Once I
> post my comment, I'm right back in the comment box, and tabbing does
> nothing but take me through it in a closed loop. Once I get to the
> "Post" button, hitting Return and hitting Tab is the same except
> that Return posts a comment. As soon as my comment is posted, the
> focus cycles back up to the "Login" field (which seems to be just a
> place for your name, not a true login field) in the comment form. If
> I try to tab past the box without commenting, the focus follows the
> same cycle. The only difference is that it skips from "Post" back to
> "Login" without posting a comment.
>
> I wonder if this form depends on some of the nonstandard behavior of
> IE to operate. That would explain why standards-compliant browsers
> can't operate it, wouldn't it?
>
> Cliff
>
>>>> Ro < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 10/25/10 4:10 PM >>>
> Patrick, thank you for that info about the buttons. I was thinking it
> had to be something along those lines. Looks like Jaws can still see
> it but Voiceover can't. I'm looking forward to what the other
> Voiceover person has to say because if it's just me, I won't keep
> bugging Echo. I'm do for an overhaul anyway. However, that still seems
> like an issue from an accessibility standpoint that should be
> addressed.
>
> Carin, did you get Patrick's message? We should save that and show the
> Echo peeps.
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
> For me, acceptance was the first step towards recovery.
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
>
>> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
>> drawn in from somewhere else & does not show up with View Source. The
>> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>>
>> The only clue I can give is that "Post" & "Cancel" are announced (by
>> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow" & "Echo" (with its sublist of
>> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
>> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
>> events for these items & left out keyboard access. Device-independent
>> event handlers are usually best.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread,
>>> right?
>>>
>>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her,
>>> so
>>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email.
>>> But
>>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>>
>>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since
>>> we
>>> kinda pay for their service.
>>>
>>> Carin
>>>
>>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>>>> help
>>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really
>>>> nice,
>>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which
>>>> is
>>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out,
>>>> just
>>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>>>> hear
>>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an
>>>> email? I
>>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone
>>>> before
>>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>>
>>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because
>>>> then
>>>> I could tell them.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know
>>>> what
>>>> else to do.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>>
>>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>
>>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>>
>>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Patrick J. Burke
>>
>> Coordinator
>> UCLA Disabilities &
>> Computing Program
>>
>> Phone: 310 206-6004
>> E-mail: burke <at> ucla. edu
>> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>

From: Ron Stewart
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 7:30PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

You use JAWS and sorry to say what that does have to do with an accessible
interface?

As I have stated so many time before this is one of the major problems when
content creators try to use JAWS as their measure of accessibility. What you
get is a measure of JAWS accessibility which has very little to do with
actual measurements of the accessibility and the functional usability of a
given interface from an UAI level.

Each screen reader will deal with the user interface differently and if it
does not work as you expected then that is a design error not an
accessibility problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Carin Headrick
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:31 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Help with Echo accessibility

But I use JAWS and can press enter on them and they work for me. So what
makes the way VO handles them different than JAWS?

On 25/10/2010 4:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
> drawn in from somewhere else& does not show up with View Source. The
> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>
> The only clue I can give is that "Post"& "Cancel" are announced (by
> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow"& "Echo" (with its sublist of
> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
> events for these items& left out keyboard access. Device-independent
> event handlers are usually best.
>
> Patrick
>
> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread, right?
>>
>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>
>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
>> kinda pay for their service.
>>
>> Carin
>>
>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>
>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>
>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
>>> I could tell them.
>>>
>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
>>> else to do.
>>>
>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>
>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>
>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>
>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
> --
> Patrick J. Burke
>
> Coordinator
> UCLA Disabilities&
> Computing Program
>
> Phone: 310 206-6004
> E-mail: burke<at> ucla. edu
> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>

From: Carin Headrick
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 8:00PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

He said he was using Firefox. Firefox doesn't work with VO. So I thought
maybe I could help him get it to work with Firefox and JAWS to compare
the difference. That was all.

Carin

On 25/10/2010 9:15 PM, Ron Stewart wrote:
> You use JAWS and sorry to say what that does have to do with an accessible
> interface?
>
> As I have stated so many time before this is one of the major problems when
> content creators try to use JAWS as their measure of accessibility. What you
> get is a measure of JAWS accessibility which has very little to do with
> actual measurements of the accessibility and the functional usability of a
> given interface from an UAI level.
>
> Each screen reader will deal with the user interface differently and if it
> does not work as you expected then that is a design error not an
> accessibility problem.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Carin Headrick
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:31 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Help with Echo accessibility
>
> But I use JAWS and can press enter on them and they work for me. So what
> makes the way VO handles them different than JAWS?
>
> On 25/10/2010 4:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
>> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
>> drawn in from somewhere else& does not show up with View Source. The
>> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>>
>> The only clue I can give is that "Post"& "Cancel" are announced (by
>> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow"& "Echo" (with its sublist of
>> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
>> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
>> events for these items& left out keyboard access. Device-independent
>> event handlers are usually best.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread, right?
>>>
>>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
>>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>>
>>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
>>> kinda pay for their service.
>>>
>>> Carin
>>>
>>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
>>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
>>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
>>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
>>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
>>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
>>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>>
>>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
>>>> I could tell them.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
>>>> else to do.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>>
>>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>
>>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>>
>>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>> --
>> Patrick J. Burke
>>
>> Coordinator
>> UCLA Disabilities&
>> Computing Program
>>
>> Phone: 310 206-6004
>> E-mail: burke<at> ucla. edu
>> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>

From: ckrugman@sbcglobal.net
Date: Mon, Oct 25 2010 9:42PM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Although I did not leave a comment I had no problem reading the page with
JAWS 12 and IE8 and Windows Vista. All of the edit fields were there along
with the buttons for the amodicons.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ro" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:42 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] Help with Echo accessibility


> Hi folks,
>
> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>
> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>
> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
> I could tell them.
>
> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
> else to do.
>
> Here's a post to test the comments:
>
> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>
> Thanks in advance...
>
> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>
> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>
>

From: Ron Stewart
Date: Tue, Oct 26 2010 7:33AM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

My apologies for the terseness of my reply, I should refrain from making
comments at the end of a long day.

Ron Stewart

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Carin Headrick
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 10:00 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Help with Echo accessibility

He said he was using Firefox. Firefox doesn't work with VO. So I thought
maybe I could help him get it to work with Firefox and JAWS to compare
the difference. That was all.

Carin

On 25/10/2010 9:15 PM, Ron Stewart wrote:
> You use JAWS and sorry to say what that does have to do with an accessible
> interface?
>
> As I have stated so many time before this is one of the major problems
when
> content creators try to use JAWS as their measure of accessibility. What
you
> get is a measure of JAWS accessibility which has very little to do with
> actual measurements of the accessibility and the functional usability of a
> given interface from an UAI level.
>
> Each screen reader will deal with the user interface differently and if it
> does not work as you expected then that is a design error not an
> accessibility problem.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Carin Headrick
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:31 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Help with Echo accessibility
>
> But I use JAWS and can press enter on them and they work for me. So what
> makes the way VO handles them different than JAWS?
>
> On 25/10/2010 4:45 PM, Patrick Burke wrote:
>> Not much to go on, but the critical code in question is apparently
>> drawn in from somewhere else& does not show up with View Source. The
>> whole thing is a wild festival of Javascript.
>>
>> The only clue I can give is that "Post"& "Cancel" are announced (by
>> Jaws in Windows) as buttons. "Follow"& "Echo" (with its sublist of
>> options nearby) are only reported as "clickable", but not as buttons
>> or links. So it would appear that the Echo system has defined mouse
>> events for these items& left out keyboard access. Device-independent
>> event handlers are usually best.
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>> At 01:28 PM 10/25/2010, Carin Headrick wrote:
>>> You said you also had trouble hitting reply from within a thread, right?
>>>
>>> I'm one of the blog authors, and I have felt helpless to help her, so
>>> for now, we've been sending her comments to her manually by email. But
>>> human errors do tend to happen.
>>>
>>> Really hopin' for some info so we can also pass it on to Echo since we
>>> kinda pay for their service.
>>>
>>> Carin
>>>
>>> On 25/10/2010 11:42 AM, Ro wrote:
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your help
>>>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>>>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>>>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
>>>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>>>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>>>
>>>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>>>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
>>>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
>>>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you hear
>>>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>>>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
>>>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>>>
>>>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>>>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
>>>> I could tell them.
>>>>
>>>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
>>>> else to do.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>>>
>>>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance...
>>>>
>>>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>>>
>>>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>> --
>> Patrick J. Burke
>>
>> Coordinator
>> UCLA Disabilities&
>> Computing Program
>>
>> Phone: 310 206-6004
>> E-mail: burke<at> ucla. edu
>> Department Contact: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>

From: Ro
Date: Tue, Oct 26 2010 8:27AM
Subject: Re: Help with Echo accessibility
← Previous message | No next message

Yeah unfortunately it's fine with Jaws. The problem is with Voiceover.
Thanks for checking it out, though.

~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden

One Day at a Time

On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:41 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Although I did not leave a comment I had no problem reading the page
> with
> JAWS 12 and IE8 and Windows Vista. All of the edit fields were there
> along
> with the buttons for the amodicons.
> Chuck
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ro" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2010 8:42 AM
> Subject: [WebAIM] Help with Echo accessibility
>
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> If there are any Apple users with Leopard or Snow, can I get your
>> help
>> with something? One of my favorite blogs uses Echo's commenting
>> system. To follow comments, you can just click "follow", enter your
>> email, and then you can reply to comments by email. It's really nice,
>> but since one of the latest Safari updates, the word "follow" does
>> nothing. I've tried using group mode in Leopard to no avail.
>>
>> The Echo CEO actually suggested I get a PC user to enter my email
>> address for me. Wow. He says it works from on his Mac OS 10, which is
>> great but he's not using Voiceover. Can someone go check it out, just
>> arrow down until you find the comment field, keep going until you
>> hear
>> "follow", click it and see if you get an option to enter an email? I
>> want to know if this is something weird with my computer alone before
>> I respond to the Echo guy some more.
>>
>> If you're so inclined also, if you think you might know what the
>> problem is and if there's a fix, that would be great too because then
>> I could tell them.
>>
>> I was hoping I'd never have to bring this here, but I don't know what
>> else to do.
>>
>> Here's a post to test the comments:
>>
>> http://vomitcomet.blogspot.com/2010/10/i-got-world-series-i-wanted.html
>>
>> Thanks in advance...
>>
>> ~Randi and Guide Dog Jayden
>>
>> http://raynaadi.blogspot.com/
>>
>>