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Thread: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?

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From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Thu, Aug 02 2012 12:11PM
Subject: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
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To improve accessible navigation of forms? Does HTML validation really matter in this situation?

Don't see any problems from a quick test on OS X and VoiceOver/Safari.

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
Deque Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.PaulJAdam.com
@pauljadam on Twitter

From: Corbett, James
Date: Thu, Aug 02 2012 12:34PM
Subject: Re: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
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Hi:

Wouldn't that fail on 1.3.1 Info and Relationships?

...and if and when HJ resolves the issue with field sets / legends I personally wouldn't want to hear H1 blah blah Date of Birth each time I'm tabbing between the controls within the fieldset.

Jim

James Corbett
IT Developer - Analyst
ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives Services
613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A 0L8
Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada

"Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel laureate (b. 1928)

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
Sent: August 2, 2012 2:11 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Any problems with placing headings inside legends?

To improve accessible navigation of forms? Does HTML validation really matter in this situation?

Don't see any problems from a quick test on OS X and VoiceOver/Safari.

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
Deque Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.PaulJAdam.com
@pauljadam on Twitter

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, Aug 02 2012 1:16PM
Subject: Re: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
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I find using aria ggroup and radiogroup is better now and is well
supported by Firefox, IE (with JAWS and NVDA) and Safari (with
VoiceOver)
See the article and sample file at
http://www.deque.com/aria-group-viable-alternative-fieldset-legend
Sailesh Panchang
On 8/2/12, Corbett, James < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi:
>
> Wouldn't that fail on 1.3.1 Info and Relationships?
>
> ...and if and when HJ resolves the issue with field sets / legends I
> personally wouldn't want to hear H1 blah blah Date of Birth each time I'm
> tabbing between the controls within the fieldset.
>
> Jim
>
> James Corbett
> IT Developer - Analyst
> ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives
> Services
> 613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
> Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A 0L8
> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>
> "Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel
> laureate (b. 1928)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
> Sent: August 2, 2012 2:11 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
>
> To improve accessible navigation of forms? Does HTML validation really
> matter in this situation?
>
> Don't see any problems from a quick test on OS X and VoiceOver/Safari.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> Deque Systems
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> www.PaulJAdam.com
> @pauljadam on Twitter
>
> > > > > > >

From: Paul J. Adam
Date: Thu, Aug 02 2012 4:26PM
Subject: Re: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
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In my test on OS X, VoiceOver did not say it was a heading when navigating between the fieldset controls. It only said that when focused on the legend text or using heading navigation to jump directly to the legend. So no extra noise, I also tested in latest versions of NVDA/JAWS/IE/FF and no extra noise.

So I guess I don't see any problems with this. Seems to me it only enhances the accessibility of a large form.

Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
Deque Systems
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.PaulJAdam.com
@pauljadam on Twitter

On Aug 2, 2012, at 1:34 PM, "Corbett, James" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi:
>
> Wouldn't that fail on 1.3.1 Info and Relationships?
>
> ...and if and when HJ resolves the issue with field sets / legends I personally wouldn't want to hear H1 blah blah Date of Birth each time I'm tabbing between the controls within the fieldset.
>
> Jim
>
> James Corbett
> IT Developer - Analyst
> ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives Services
> 613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
> Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A 0L8
> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>
> "Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel laureate (b. 1928)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
> Sent: August 2, 2012 2:11 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
>
> To improve accessible navigation of forms? Does HTML validation really matter in this situation?
>
> Don't see any problems from a quick test on OS X and VoiceOver/Safari.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> Deque Systems
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> www.PaulJAdam.com
> @pauljadam on Twitter
>
> > > > > >

From: Sailesh Panchang
Date: Thu, Aug 02 2012 8:31PM
Subject: Re: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
← Previous message | Next message →

Paul,
Right,
One uses heading navigation to understand the structure and
organization of content ... a form in this case.
And when one uses form navigation, the heading markup is of no
significance. The legend markup kicks in to announce which fields are
grouped by the common label i.e. legend.
But my point is group/radiogroup are better supported across browsers
and screen readers than fieldset/legend and offer improved
flexibility to the developer too for managing presentation.
Ref. http://www.deque.com/aria-group-viable-alternative-fieldset-legend
Sailesh


On 8/2/12, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> In my test on OS X, VoiceOver did not say it was a heading when navigating
> between the fieldset controls. It only said that when focused on the legend
> text or using heading navigation to jump directly to the legend. So no extra
> noise, I also tested in latest versions of NVDA/JAWS/IE/FF and no extra
> noise.
>
> So I guess I don't see any problems with this. Seems to me it only enhances
> the accessibility of a large form.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> Deque Systems
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> www.PaulJAdam.com
> @pauljadam on Twitter
>
> On Aug 2, 2012, at 1:34 PM, "Corbett, James" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> Wouldn't that fail on 1.3.1 Info and Relationships?
>>
>> ...and if and when HJ resolves the issue with field sets / legends I
>> personally wouldn't want to hear H1 blah blah Date of Birth each time I'm
>> tabbing between the controls within the fieldset.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> James Corbett
>> IT Developer - Analyst
>> ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal Initiatives
>> Services
>> 613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8
>> Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A
>> 0L8
>> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>>
>> "Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer, Nobel
>> laureate (b. 1928)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J. Adam
>> Sent: August 2, 2012 2:11 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
>>
>> To improve accessible navigation of forms? Does HTML validation really
>> matter in this situation?
>>
>> Don't see any problems from a quick test on OS X and VoiceOver/Safari.
>>
>> Paul J. Adam
>> Accessibility Evangelist
>> Deque Systems
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> www.PaulJAdam.com
>> @pauljadam on Twitter
>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> >
> > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Sun, Aug 05 2012 10:13PM
Subject: Re: Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
← Previous message | No next message

I don't like this approach at all. The first step should be to apply the
correct semantic structure (fieldset, legend etc) and then use ARIA if the
content is not accessible for some reason.

I also disagree with the assertion that "group/radiogroup are better
supported across browsers and screen readers than fieldset/legend". That
may be the case for new browsers and AT versions (although that sounds
improbable) but it is definitely not the case for older versions. And I am
talking about versions that are only 3 or 4 years old and still in
widespread use.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Sailesh Panchang
Sent: 03 August 2012 03:31
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Any problems with placing headings inside legends?

Paul,
Right,
One uses heading navigation to understand the structure and organization of
content ... a form in this case.
And when one uses form navigation, the heading markup is of no significance.
The legend markup kicks in to announce which fields are grouped by the
common label i.e. legend.
But my point is group/radiogroup are better supported across browsers and
screen readers than fieldset/legend and offer improved flexibility to the
developer too for managing presentation.
Ref. http://www.deque.com/aria-group-viable-alternative-fieldset-legend
Sailesh


On 8/2/12, Paul J. Adam < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> In my test on OS X, VoiceOver did not say it was a heading when
> navigating between the fieldset controls. It only said that when
> focused on the legend text or using heading navigation to jump
> directly to the legend. So no extra noise, I also tested in latest
> versions of NVDA/JAWS/IE/FF and no extra noise.
>
> So I guess I don't see any problems with this. Seems to me it only
> enhances the accessibility of a large form.
>
> Paul J. Adam
> Accessibility Evangelist
> Deque Systems
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> www.PaulJAdam.com
> @pauljadam on Twitter
>
> On Aug 2, 2012, at 1:34 PM, "Corbett, James"
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> Wouldn't that fail on 1.3.1 Info and Relationships?
>>
>> ...and if and when HJ resolves the issue with field sets / legends I
>> personally wouldn't want to hear H1 blah blah Date of Birth each time
>> I'm tabbing between the controls within the fieldset.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> James Corbett
>> IT Developer - Analyst
>> ITB/Solutions/BP&A/DevCentre/Developer Tools and Horizontal
>> Initiatives Services
>> 613 941-9355 | facsimile / télécopieur 613-954-9222
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = Canada Revenue Agency | 875 Heron Rd Rm
>> H4-177, Ottawa ON K1A OL8 Agence du revenu du Canada | 875 chemin
>> Heron, ch H4-177 Ottawa ON K1A
>> 0L8
>> Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
>>
>> "Some stories are true that never happened". -Elie Wiesel, writer,
>> Nobel laureate (b. 1928)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Paul J.
>> Adam
>> Sent: August 2, 2012 2:11 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: [WebAIM] Any problems with placing headings inside legends?
>>
>> To improve accessible navigation of forms? Does HTML validation
>> really matter in this situation?
>>
>> Don't see any problems from a quick test on OS X and VoiceOver/Safari.
>>
>> Paul J. Adam
>> Accessibility Evangelist
>> Deque Systems
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> www.PaulJAdam.com
>> @pauljadam on Twitter
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =