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Thread: Visual location

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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Barry Hill
Date: Wed, Aug 15 2012 10:50AM
Subject: Visual location
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Hi all

Would you say that a website that has this line conforms to wc3 1.3.3 with
regard to visual location:

"Follow the links on the left to find out more about us."

The wc3 guideline 1.3.3 states:

"Sensory Characteristics: Instructions provided for understanding and
operating content do not rely solely on sensory characteristics of
components such as shape, size, visual location, orientation, or sound.
(Level A) "

Cheers

Barry

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Wed, Aug 15 2012 11:26AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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2012-08-15 19:50, Barry Hill wrote:

> Would you say that a website that has this line conforms to wc3 1.3.3 with
> regard to visual location:
>
> "Follow the links on the left to find out more about us."
>
> The wc3 guideline 1.3.3 states:
>
> "Sensory Characteristics: Instructions provided for understanding and
> operating content do not rely solely on sensory characteristics of
> components such as shape, size, visual location, orientation, or sound.
> (Level A) "

The statement on the website is apparently non-conforming, as it refers
to some content only by its being "on the left", which is (in principle
at least) insignificant in non-visual browsing.

But in practice, I would not complain about the formulation of the
statement but about the statement itself. It is pointless. Navigation
should be observable and understandable on its own. If it isn't, vague
verbal descriptions don't make the situation any better.

Yucca

From: John Foliot
Date: Wed, Aug 15 2012 11:58AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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Barry Hill wrote:
>
> Would you say that a website that has this line conforms to wc3 1.3.3
> with
> regard to visual location:
>
> "Follow the links on the left to find out more about us."
>
> The wc3 guideline 1.3.3 states:
>
> "Sensory Characteristics: Instructions provided for understanding and
> operating content do not rely solely on sensory characteristics of
> components such as shape, size, visual location, orientation, or sound.
> (Level A) "


No.

JF

From: Barry Hill
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 3:35AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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I thought it failed, but wasn't sure if I was just being pedantic. There are
several things wrong with the new local government website that I feel I
should point out to them. Another example of the visual location came on
their 'Accessibility' page:

"In the right-hand columnn of each page of this site are two toggle buttons
which allow the re-sizing of the text on that page. Click on the "A+" button
to increase the text size and the "A-" button to decrease the size."

Instead of such visual location descriptions, what should be used? Perhaps a
same page link?

I do think that the reason why it fails is that it used three automated
accessibility checkers to validate tripple A with W3C 1.0. They don't
appear to have done any user testing. I also think they should have gone
for 2.0 being a new site.

Cheers

Barry

From: Ramya Sethuraman
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 8:23AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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Do just the words 'left' and 'right' mean non-conformance? Even for a
screen reader user, they understand left and right...isn't the problem when
instructions are like 'Select the button next to the 3rd heading' etc ?


On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Barry Hill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I thought it failed, but wasn't sure if I was just being pedantic. There
> are
> several things wrong with the new local government website that I feel I
> should point out to them. Another example of the visual location came on
> their 'Accessibility' page:
>
> "In the right-hand columnn of each page of this site are two toggle buttons
> which allow the re-sizing of the text on that page. Click on the "A+"
> button
> to increase the text size and the "A-" button to decrease the size."
>
> Instead of such visual location descriptions, what should be used? Perhaps
> a
> same page link?
>
> I do think that the reason why it fails is that it used three automated
> accessibility checkers to validate tripple A with W3C 1.0. They don't
> appear to have done any user testing. I also think they should have gone
> for 2.0 being a new site.
>
> Cheers
>
> Barry
>
>
> > > >



--
*I also exist @: http://www.ramyasethuraman.com*

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 8:24AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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It's not great, but at least, if they mention that these are buttons
and the buttons are labelled a+ and a- plus they are instructions for
users with some vission, I think I would find it acceptable,
personally. I wouldn't particularly like it, but I have certainly seen
worse.
-B


On 8/16/12, Barry Hill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I thought it failed, but wasn't sure if I was just being pedantic. There
> are
> several things wrong with the new local government website that I feel I
> should point out to them. Another example of the visual location came on
> their 'Accessibility' page:
>
> "In the right-hand columnn of each page of this site are two toggle buttons
> which allow the re-sizing of the text on that page. Click on the "A+"
> button
> to increase the text size and the "A-" button to decrease the size."
>
> Instead of such visual location descriptions, what should be used? Perhaps
> a
> same page link?
>
> I do think that the reason why it fails is that it used three automated
> accessibility checkers to validate tripple A with W3C 1.0. They don't
> appear to have done any user testing. I also think they should have gone
> for 2.0 being a new site.
>
> Cheers
>
> Barry
>
>
> > > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 8:27AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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Well, one of the problems I have always had with screen readers, and
something I feel is somewhat their responsibility, is to not offer the
user some sort of page description or exploration mode consistent with
the visual layout.
I have not done much programming in this area, but I would imagine the
SR could interpret this information and present it to the user, the
layout, number of columns etc. Many blind users I meet say they're not
interested, and they don't care, but I feel this is important info,
because we often have to use the pages with sighted colleagues, or the
sighted world in general (customer service etc).


On 8/16/12, Ramya Sethuraman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Do just the words 'left' and 'right' mean non-conformance? Even for a
> screen reader user, they understand left and right...isn't the problem when
> instructions are like 'Select the button next to the 3rd heading' etc ?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Barry Hill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I thought it failed, but wasn't sure if I was just being pedantic. There
>> are
>> several things wrong with the new local government website that I feel I
>> should point out to them. Another example of the visual location came on
>> their 'Accessibility' page:
>>
>> "In the right-hand columnn of each page of this site are two toggle
>> buttons
>> which allow the re-sizing of the text on that page. Click on the "A+"
>> button
>> to increase the text size and the "A-" button to decrease the size."
>>
>> Instead of such visual location descriptions, what should be used?
>> Perhaps
>> a
>> same page link?
>>
>> I do think that the reason why it fails is that it used three automated
>> accessibility checkers to validate tripple A with W3C 1.0. They don't
>> appear to have done any user testing. I also think they should have gone
>> for 2.0 being a new site.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> *I also exist @: http://www.ramyasethuraman.com*
> > > >

From: Chris Moore
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 10:12AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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I am just wondering when we will see a change in attitude regarding this. Speaking as someone who used to have vision, I find it helpful to know where things are on a page. It helps me build a mental picture of the layout. Plus this information is of benefit to users of low vision and screen mag users. It gives them a visual clue of where to look, which can be very useful when you are only seeing a small piece of the web page at a time (the size of that piece all depends on what magnification level you use).

Granted being told a link or information is on the left is of very little use to a desktop screen reader and I am certainly not offended by this. I would like to put it to the group that screen readers are changing too. For example, let's say I am using a iPad or Windows Surface or even a Google Nexus 7. With these devices I can feel where elements are placed on the page. So being told something is on the left suddenly becomes very useful to the user who is exploring the screen with their finger.

So maybe W3C need to acknowledge that.

Thoughts anyone?

Chris

On 16 Aug 2012, at 15:27, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Well, one of the problems I have always had with screen readers, and
> something I feel is somewhat their responsibility, is to not offer the
> user some sort of page description or exploration mode consistent with
> the visual layout.
> I have not done much programming in this area, but I would imagine the
> SR could interpret this information and present it to the user, the
> layout, number of columns etc. Many blind users I meet say they're not
> interested, and they don't care, but I feel this is important info,
> because we often have to use the pages with sighted colleagues, or the
> sighted world in general (customer service etc).
>
>
> On 8/16/12, Ramya Sethuraman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Do just the words 'left' and 'right' mean non-conformance? Even for a
>> screen reader user, they understand left and right...isn't the problem when
>> instructions are like 'Select the button next to the 3rd heading' etc ?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Barry Hill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> I thought it failed, but wasn't sure if I was just being pedantic. There
>>> are
>>> several things wrong with the new local government website that I feel I
>>> should point out to them. Another example of the visual location came on
>>> their 'Accessibility' page:
>>>
>>> "In the right-hand columnn of each page of this site are two toggle
>>> buttons
>>> which allow the re-sizing of the text on that page. Click on the "A+"
>>> button
>>> to increase the text size and the "A-" button to decrease the size."
>>>
>>> Instead of such visual location descriptions, what should be used?
>>> Perhaps
>>> a
>>> same page link?
>>>
>>> I do think that the reason why it fails is that it used three automated
>>> accessibility checkers to validate tripple A with W3C 1.0. They don't
>>> appear to have done any user testing. I also think they should have gone
>>> for 2.0 being a new site.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *I also exist @: http://www.ramyasethuraman.com*
>> >> >> >>
> > >

From: Bevi Chagnon
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 10:31AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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<< So maybe W3C need to acknowledge that. >>
Definitely. The tactile devices you describe are just the first pioneers in
this technology. Will be exciting to watch it develop and provide
opportunities for more users.

Your personal experience of building a mental picture of the page's layout
is similar to that of people I've worked with. It's good to have this
broader discussion take place.

-
Bevi Chagnon, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
PubCom - Trainers, consultants, designers, and developers
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and Federal Section 508 Accessibility
-
* It's our 30th Year! *

-----Original Message-----

I am just wondering when we will see a change in attitude regarding this.
Speaking as someone who used to have vision, I find it helpful to know where
things are on a page. It helps me build a mental picture of the layout.
Plus this information is of benefit to users of low vision and screen mag
users. It gives them a visual clue of where to look, which can be very
useful when you are only seeing a small piece of the web page at a time (the
size of that piece all depends on what magnification level you use).

Granted being told a link or information is on the left is of very little
use to a desktop screen reader and I am certainly not offended by this. I
would like to put it to the group that screen readers are changing too. For
example, let's say I am using a iPad or Windows Surface or even a Google
Nexus 7. With these devices I can feel where elements are placed on the
page. So being told something is on the left suddenly becomes very useful
to the user who is exploring the screen with their finger.

So maybe W3C need to acknowledge that.

Thoughts anyone?
Chris

From: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 10:58AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Chris Moore < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> So being told something is on the left suddenly becomes very useful to the user who is exploring the screen with their finger.
>
> So maybe W3C need to acknowledge that.

Some things to note:

1. The SC does not say that it is wrong to refer to something by
visual location, only that it is wrong to refer to something *only* by
visual location.

2. Just because something is on the left in typical setups does not
mean it will always be on the left. For example, on a small screen the
content might be wrapped so that the target is now above. Or, the user
might be applying a personal stylesheet to web content, so that the
author's positioning is not applied. Or, the author's stylesheet might
have failed to load thanks to a network failure, so the user gets
unstyled content.

3. Web content can be consumed as a pure audio or braille stream
without a screen being involved at all.

--
Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis

From: David Ashleydale
Date: Thu, Aug 16 2012 11:14AM
Subject: Re: Visual location
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As Benjamin stated, I think it's still good to describe where things are
located on a page for people that find that information useful, but the
description needs to include more info than that.

For example, "You can find the text re-size buttons in the right column of
every page in the Utilities section."

David