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Thread: End of page notification

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From: Greg Gamble
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 12:22PM
Subject: End of page notification
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Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader has reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you notify the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on this.

Greg Gamble
Information ServicesWashington State Board for Community & Technical Colleges
1300 Quince St SE | PO Box 42495 | Olympia, Washington 98504
p: (360) 704-4376
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > | www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 12:39PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Wow, what timing! We were having a similar conversion with a client last week.

In traditional print publishing, either a square box (such as ■), the "End of Proof/Halmos" symbol (∎) or 3 hash marks (###) signal the end of the story's content.
Some long-time traditional print publishers still use a square box or Halmos on their websites, but most publishers do not.

Personally, I think it would help AT-users to have some marker that tells them they have reached the end of the main story content on a webpage.
Professionally, it should be the Halmos symbol (ANSI = Alt+8718, Decimal = &#8718;, and Hexadecimal = &#x220E;) but in our testing, none of the screen readers with default settings interpreted any of these symbols correctly.

(And I wonder, how many of our list members were able to read the characters inserted in this email? They're all Unicode characters.)

If we were to suggest any one symbol to the industry, it would be the Halmos because it is already used by publishers for that purpose.

—Bevi Chagnon
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www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508 Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming this fall and winter.
— It's our 31st year! —

From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 1:33PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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2012-12-17 21:39, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:

> In traditional print publishing, either a square box (such as ■),
> the "End of Proof/Halmos" symbol (∎) or 3 hash marks (###) signal
> the end of the story's content.

I have never seen the latter, but I have seen a square box, but it's far
from ubiquous. Many other symbols are used, such as a rectangle or a
lage bullet - namely to indicate end of an article. A web page might
contain several articles. An end-of-article marker is mostly needed in
publications that contain several articles, and an end-of-page indicator
is something different. After all, on the web, "page" means a document,
which might be anything from a very short note to a book-length
presentation.

I mostly find the issue a non-problem. Billions of pages lack any end of
page indicator in content, and end of page is really something to be
noticed by a browser rather than expressed explicitly. Especially if a
page ends with a footer containing creation date, last update, author
name or company name, and contact information, it should be pretty clear
that the page ends there.

> Personally, I think it would help AT-users to have some marker that
> tells them they have reached the end of the main story content on a webpage.

Main story content is different from end of page. And the end of main
story content is probably best expressed by indicating that what follows
is not main content any more. That is, the problem would then be how to
signal the start of a footer.

> Professionally, it should be the Halmos symbol [...] but in our testing,
> none of the screen readers with default settings interpreted any of these symbols correctly.

The best we can reasonably expect from screen readers is that any symbol
that is otherwise unknown is spoken by uttering its Unicode name. What
you suggest is named "end of proof", so it would hardly quality, since
mostly the main content of a page is not a proof. The symbol is clearly
meant for mathematical use; its General Category is "Symbol, Math". So
in that sense, it would be better to use a semantically vague rectangle
or box character.

And since support to special characters is so limited in screen readers,
an image would actually improve accessibility. You could then use a
symbol of your preference, with descriptive alt attribute value such as
"End of page" or "End of main content". But I don't see why that would
be needed.

> (And I wonder, how many of our list members were able to read the characters
> inserted in this email? They're all Unicode characters.)

I had no difficulty in reading them, and I suppose most email programs
can display the "end of proof character". But it's a different issue
whether people understand its meaning, and yet another issue what screen
readers do.

Yucca

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 2:49PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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oops, apologies...hit send too early before actually squeezing out my pearl of wisdom: I'd instead suggest to the AT industry to notify users of end of page, instead of putting the onus on every single web page out there...

--
Patrick H. Lauke

From: Bourne, Sarah (ITD)
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:01PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Perhaps the adoption of <main> will present opportunities. AT could announce the end when it hits </main> for instance.

sb

Sarah E. Bourne
Director of Assistive Technology &
Mass.Gov Chief Technology Strategist
Information Technology Division
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
1 Ashburton Pl. rm 1601 Boston MA 02108
617-626-4502
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.mass.gov/itd

From: Rick Hill
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:04PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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One of the user tips I got from a few sight challenged users is the clue to them is the copyright notice being the last page element.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Hill, Web CMS Administrator
University Communications, UC Davis
(530) 752-9612
http://cms.ucdavis.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Web CMS assistance at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
-------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:08PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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But "End of page" is different from "end of story" or "end of main content."
Our testing has had screen readers roll right to the sidebars, footers, or other sections of the page after completing the main story. That's a big confusing and jolting to the screen reader user.


—Bevi Chagnon

From: Angela French
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:20PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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How would the AT device know?

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:27PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Yes, copyright info is usually at the end of any web page.
But that might be too late in the structure if you have a webpage with multiple <DIV> tags holding various navigation menus, sidebars, advertisements, main content, and footer info (which is where the copyright would be).

In many webpage designs, the main story can be followed by sidebars and ads before hitting the copyright in the footer <DIV>, long after the main story ended.

Going back to Sarah Bourne's recommendation of using <main>, how likely is it that to become a recommended guideline in WCAG? Generally, professional websites are built around CSS and DIV, but I've seen developers name the DIV that holds the main story any of a dozen names, including <main-content>, <content>, <story>, <main-story>, etc. We'd have to have W3C/WCAG guidelines specifically state that the main story on a webpage should be in a div named <main>.

And then the AT manufacturers would need to build in functionality when reading that tag, specifically the </main> closing tag.

It's a good suggestion worth pursuing, but I expect it would require getting both the web development community and AT manufacturers to agree to this, as well as W3C and WAI.



—Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508 Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming this fall and winter.
— It's our 31st year! —

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:28PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Sounds like a good place to use ARIA landmarks or HTML5 sectioning elements.

End of the banner? No problem.
End of navigation? No problem.
End of article? No problem.
End of the footer? No problem.
End of main content? Well, ARIA can take care of you there. And if Steve gets his way, as we all wish, we'll get HTML5 there also.

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:30PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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lets be clear, every screen reader (as in software) has access to the HTML
DOM tree of the page and/or access to the accessible tree representation of
the DOM. In both instances the end of the page is represented by the
</body> or document container and are therefore perfectly capable of
representing the end of the page to the user without ANY need for authors
to add anything.

regards
SteveF

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:49PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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I think there are 2 issues being discussed:
1) the screen reader not recognizing the </body> tag (the end of the entire webpage) and continuing to read browser status bar, etc.

As stated by Greg: "I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem?"

It seems that screen reader software should recognize the end of the webpage's </body> tag. I think this is a problem for users because status bar information is usually not needed and in those cases where it is needed, it should be accessible by a shortcut.

2) But I don't think that addresses another problem: the end of a story/main content portion of the webpage, rather than the end of the entire webpage.



—Bevi Chagnon

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 3:57PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Doesn't the Main area landmark have a corresponding "end", some screen
readers are beginning to read this when it is present.
If you simply put the landmark inside a div and then end the div after
the article, the end of the landmark area would suffice to indicate
the end of said article/story (which often is what we would think of
as "page" or "page content), isn't it so?

From: Greg Gamble
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 4:03PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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For what it's worth, this blog post is what instigated me asking my question ... not all readers "See"? the ending of a landmark section ...
http://accessibilityindia.wordpress.com/2012/11/30/aria-landmarks

Greg Gamble
SBCTC - Olympia | Information Services

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 4:33PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Devi Chagnon wrote:
"1) the screen reader not recognizing the </body> tag (the end of the entire webpage) and continuing to read browser status bar, etc."

This really isn't a problem.

When a screen reader recognises the end of the document it moves tab focus into the browser chrome, and eventually loops focus back around to the top of the document. This is expected behaviour in all screen readers.

There are key commands for moving focus directly to the bottom of the document, and when using a "say all" command a screen reader stops talking at the bottom of the page. . I believe all screen readers do this, but if one doesn't it's a flaw with the screen reader and not an authoring issue.

From: Léonie Watson
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 4:37PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Greg Gamble wrote:
"Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader has
reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into
the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you notify
the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on this."

No, this isn't a problem. The experience is pretty much the same for sighted
and blind people. When you hit the browser chrome (either visually or
aurally), you know you've reached the bottom of the page. No need for any
specific warnings or authoring practices.

Léonie.



-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Greg Gamble
Sent: 17 December 2012 19:23
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] End of page notification

Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader has
reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into
the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you notify
the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on this.

Greg Gamble
Information ServicesWashington State Board for Community & Technical Colleges
1300 Quince St SE | PO Box 42495 | Olympia, Washington 98504
p: (360) 704-4376
e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > |
www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Pradip Chandra Sikdar
Date: Mon, Dec 17 2012 7:57PM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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just a note, if you use "Nuance Talks" a screen reader for Symbian
mobile devices, you will see that, it reports "END PAGE" when the page
ends. so, I think, it can be implemented by the screen reader itself.
Regards,
Pradip Chandra Sikdar
Director of Clavier Productions <http://clavierproductions.com>;
Sound Designer of Radio Bongonet <http://www.radiobongonet.com>;
Keyboard Player, Composer & Sound Editor of X-RaF <http://www.x-raf.com>;
(Experimental Raga and Folk
Catch me on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pradip.sikdar>;
Follow me on Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/pradeepsikdar>;
Website: www.clavierproductions.com <http://clavierproductions.com>;
E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Skype: pradeep.sikdar
Mobile: +91-9883669711
On 12/18/2012 5:07 AM, Léonie Watson wrote:
> Greg Gamble wrote:
> "Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader has
> reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into
> the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you notify
> the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on this."
>
> No, this isn't a problem. The experience is pretty much the same for sighted
> and blind people. When you hit the browser chrome (either visually or
> aurally), you know you've reached the bottom of the page. No need for any
> specific warnings or authoring practices.
>
> Léonie.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Greg Gamble
> Sent: 17 December 2012 19:23
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: [WebAIM] End of page notification
>
> Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader has
> reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into
> the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you notify
> the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on this.
>
> Greg Gamble
> Information Services> Washington State Board for Community & Technical Colleges
> 1300 Quince St SE | PO Box 42495 | Olympia, Washington 98504
> p: (360) 704-4376
> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > |
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> > >

From: priti Rohra
Date: Tue, Dec 18 2012 1:27AM
Subject: Re: End of page notification
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Hi All,

Screen readers inform user about end of page by pressing "Ctrl + End"
keystroke, a keystroke common for all screen readers running on
Windows. Visually impaired users can understand by reading the
content, where the article ended or main content ended. I feel we
shouldn't stretch Accessibility to areas that will require developers
to add extra lines of code for things that can be handled by ATs and
users themselves.

This are purely my views...

Regards,
Priti Rohra


On 12/18/12, Pradip Chandra Sikdar < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> just a note, if you use "Nuance Talks" a screen reader for Symbian
> mobile devices, you will see that, it reports "END PAGE" when the page
> ends. so, I think, it can be implemented by the screen reader itself.
> Regards,
> Pradip Chandra Sikdar
> Director of Clavier Productions <http://clavierproductions.com>;
> Sound Designer of Radio Bongonet <http://www.radiobongonet.com>;
> Keyboard Player, Composer & Sound Editor of X-RaF <http://www.x-raf.com>;
> (Experimental Raga and Folk
> Catch me on Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/pradip.sikdar>;
> Follow me on Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/pradeepsikdar>;
> Website: www.clavierproductions.com <http://clavierproductions.com>;
> E-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Skype: pradeep.sikdar
> Mobile: +91-9883669711
> On 12/18/2012 5:07 AM, Léonie Watson wrote:
>> Greg Gamble wrote:
>> "Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader
>> has
>> reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into
>> the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you
>> notify
>> the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on
>> this."
>>
>> No, this isn't a problem. The experience is pretty much the same for
>> sighted
>> and blind people. When you hit the browser chrome (either visually or
>> aurally), you know you've reached the bottom of the page. No need for any
>> specific warnings or authoring practices.
>>
>> Léonie.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Greg Gamble
>> Sent: 17 December 2012 19:23
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: [WebAIM] End of page notification
>>
>> Is it necessary to have some type of notification that a screen reader
>> has
>> reached the end of a page? I've noticed using NVDA that it continues into
>> the browser status bar and on. Is this a problem? If so, how do you
>> notify
>> the reader that it has reached the page end? Google not much help on
>> this.
>>
>> Greg Gamble
>> Information Services>> Washington State Board for Community & Technical Colleges
>> 1300 Quince St SE | PO Box 42495 | Olympia, Washington 98504
>> p: (360) 704-4376
>> e: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > |
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu/>;
>>
>> >> >> messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>
>> >> >> >
> > > >