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Thread: need some help re problem sites

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Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)

From: Hoger, Jodie
Date: Sun, Apr 28 2013 10:54PM
Subject: need some help re problem sites
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Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who are blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to email them and include the link or document to get them started.
I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives me nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these messes with a screen reader.
Thanks,
Jodie

Jodie Hoger
Teacher Consultant (Vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra Institute Building L1.14,  60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541
VOIP 54865
P 02 4421 9865
M 0437 035 042
F 02 4421 9804 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au
Proverb
Give a person a fish and they will have food for a day. Teach a person to fish and they will have food for life.


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From: GF Mueden@
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 4:35AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

Jodie, I am fishing in the same pond. I have bad eyes but still use them
and I need a narrow column with word wrap. I tell problem websites
about the need, that it is covered in the w3c accessibility guidelines,
and about visibilitymetrics.com, a site that does it well.
George



On 4/29/2013 12:54 AM, Hoger, Jodie wrote:
> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who are blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to email them and include the link or document to get them started.
> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives me nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these messes with a screen reader.
> Thanks,
> Jodie
>
> Jodie Hoger
> Teacher Consultant (Vision), Equity Services TAFE NSW - Illawarra Institute Building L1.14, 60 Bienda St, Bomaderry, NSW, 2541
> VOIP 54865
> P 02 4421 9865
> M 0437 035 042
> F 02 4421 9804
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> www.illawarra.tafensw.edu.au
> Proverb
> Give a person a fish and they will have food for a day. Teach a person to fish and they will have food for life.
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain
> privileged information or confidential information or both. If you
> are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender.
> **********************************************************************
> > > >

From: Monique Brunel
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 4:56AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

Le 29/04/2013 06:54, Hoger, Jodie a écrit :
> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who are blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to email them and include the link or document to get them started.
> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives me nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these messes with a screen reader.
> Thanks,
> Jodie
>
> Jodie Hoger

Hi,
You can see the Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI/

There is a page for contact inaccessible websites
http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible

Best regards,
Monique

--
Monique Brunel
Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web - Mozilla Rep
Conférences - Ateliers - Conseil - Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
| http://blog.webatou.info | http://aliaz.com/monique-brunel |
| www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 5:51AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

Here is a link to w3c's guidelines on letting site owners know with
sample email... http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/

Often site owners need education... smaller site owners often user
Site-building tools and don't know much about html or there is any
problems, even with larger sites their development staff doesn't know
about accessbility

Nancy

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Monique Brunel
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Le 29/04/2013 06:54, Hoger, Jodie a écrit :
>> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who are blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to email them and include the link or document to get them started.
>> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives me nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these messes with a screen reader.
>> Thanks,
>> Jodie
>>
>> Jodie Hoger
>
> Hi,
> You can see the Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI/
>
> There is a page for contact inaccessible websites
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible
>
> Best regards,
> Monique
>
> --
> Monique Brunel
> Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web - Mozilla Rep
> Conférences - Ateliers - Conseil - Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
> | http://blog.webatou.info | http://aliaz.com/monique-brunel |
> | www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |
> > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 10:15AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

If you want a sighted web developer/owner to understand your needs, then
don't send them to www.w3.org, WAI, or WCAG.
The websites are overwhelming.

When I teach accessibility to developers, authors, and others who create the
material you want to access, my students' first reaction to any of these
websites is not positive. In fact, I can't reproduce their comments here.
Within a few minutes of scanning the websites, they want to bolt from the
classroom and never return to learn about accessibility.

The problem is that the overviews and technical sections aren't written and
visually designed well enough for the average visitor. They are dense,
text-heavy, unattractive, and difficult to skim. In other words, they do not
communicate the message well.

We need a reference website that's written to guide and encourage developers
to fix the most critical barriers first, and then build in the other items.
W3C/WAI/WCAG websites don't meet that need: they instead throw everything at
the reader, expecting them to dissect an enormous amount of detail in a
short period of time, to run a marathon when they're not even taking baby
steps yet.

I don't know of any web developer out there with spare time to spend reading
these websites. There is no "short version" of the website or a top-10-list
of things to do to make a website more accessible.

No wonder they don't make their websites accessible.

—Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 7:52 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites

Here is a link to w3c's guidelines on letting site owners know with
sample email... http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/

Often site owners need education... smaller site owners often user
Site-building tools and don't know much about html or there is any problems,
even with larger sites their development staff doesn't know about
accessbility

Nancy

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Monique Brunel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Le 29/04/2013 06:54, Hoger, Jodie a écrit :
>> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who are
blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with
needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly
designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a
techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am
seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs
of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their
sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to
email them and include the link or document to get them started.
>> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives me
nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these
messes with a screen reader.
>> Thanks,
>> Jodie
>>
>> Jodie Hoger
>
> Hi,
> You can see the Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI/
>
> There is a page for contact inaccessible websites
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible
>
> Best regards,
> Monique
>
> --
> Monique Brunel
> Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web - Mozilla Rep Conférences -
> Ateliers - Conseil - Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
> | http://blog.webatou.info | http://aliaz.com/monique-brunel |
> | www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: John E Brandt
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 11:22AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

How about...
http://webaim.org/intro/


John E. Brandt
www.jebswebs.com
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
207-622-7937
Augusta, Maine, USA

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 12:15 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites

If you want a sighted web developer/owner to understand your needs, then
don't send them to www.w3.org, WAI, or WCAG.
The websites are overwhelming.

When I teach accessibility to developers, authors, and others who create the
material you want to access, my students' first reaction to any of these
websites is not positive. In fact, I can't reproduce their comments here.
Within a few minutes of scanning the websites, they want to bolt from the
classroom and never return to learn about accessibility.

The problem is that the overviews and technical sections aren't written and
visually designed well enough for the average visitor. They are dense,
text-heavy, unattractive, and difficult to skim. In other words, they do not
communicate the message well.

We need a reference website that's written to guide and encourage developers
to fix the most critical barriers first, and then build in the other items.
W3C/WAI/WCAG websites don't meet that need: they instead throw everything at
the reader, expecting them to dissect an enormous amount of detail in a
short period of time, to run a marathon when they're not even taking baby
steps yet.

I don't know of any web developer out there with spare time to spend reading
these websites. There is no "short version" of the website or a top-10-list
of things to do to make a website more accessible.

No wonder they don't make their websites accessible.

—Bevi Chagnon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 7:52 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites

Here is a link to w3c's guidelines on letting site owners know with
sample email... http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/

Often site owners need education... smaller site owners often user
Site-building tools and don't know much about html or there is any problems,
even with larger sites their development staff doesn't know about
accessbility

Nancy

On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Monique Brunel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:
> Le 29/04/2013 06:54, Hoger, Jodie a écrit :
>> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who
>> are
blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with
needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly
designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a
techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am
seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs
of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their
sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to
email them and include the link or document to get them started.
>> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives
>> me
nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these
messes with a screen reader.
>> Thanks,
>> Jodie
>>
>> Jodie Hoger
>
> Hi,
> You can see the Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI/
>
> There is a page for contact inaccessible websites
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible
>
> Best regards,
> Monique
>
> --
> Monique Brunel
> Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web - Mozilla Rep Conférences -
> Ateliers - Conseil - Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
> | http://blog.webatou.info | http://aliaz.com/monique-brunel |
> | www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 11:44AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

"If you want a sighted web developer/owner to understand your needs, then
don't send them to www.w3.org, WAI, or WCAG.
The websites are overwhelming."

As a sighted web developer, I agree with you. The particular page I
stated above, at the bottom has an email template that can be copied
and modified.

Nancy


On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 1:22 PM, John E Brandt < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> How about...
> http://webaim.org/intro/
>
>
> John E. Brandt
> www.jebswebs.com
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 207-622-7937
> Augusta, Maine, USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 12:15 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites
>
> If you want a sighted web developer/owner to understand your needs, then
> don't send them to www.w3.org, WAI, or WCAG.
> The websites are overwhelming.
>
> When I teach accessibility to developers, authors, and others who create the
> material you want to access, my students' first reaction to any of these
> websites is not positive. In fact, I can't reproduce their comments here.
> Within a few minutes of scanning the websites, they want to bolt from the
> classroom and never return to learn about accessibility.
>
> The problem is that the overviews and technical sections aren't written and
> visually designed well enough for the average visitor. They are dense,
> text-heavy, unattractive, and difficult to skim. In other words, they do not
> communicate the message well.
>
> We need a reference website that's written to guide and encourage developers
> to fix the most critical barriers first, and then build in the other items.
> W3C/WAI/WCAG websites don't meet that need: they instead throw everything at
> the reader, expecting them to dissect an enormous amount of detail in a
> short period of time, to run a marathon when they're not even taking baby
> steps yet.
>
> I don't know of any web developer out there with spare time to spend reading
> these websites. There is no "short version" of the website or a top-10-list
> of things to do to make a website more accessible.
>
> No wonder they don't make their websites accessible.
>
> —Bevi Chagnon
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 7:52 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites
>
> Here is a link to w3c's guidelines on letting site owners know with
> sample email... http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/
>
> Often site owners need education... smaller site owners often user
> Site-building tools and don't know much about html or there is any problems,
> even with larger sites their development staff doesn't know about
> accessbility
>
> Nancy
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Monique Brunel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>> Le 29/04/2013 06:54, Hoger, Jodie a écrit :
>>> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who
>>> are
> blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with
> needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly
> designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a
> techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am
> seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs
> of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their
> sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to
> email them and include the link or document to get them started.
>>> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives
>>> me
> nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these
> messes with a screen reader.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jodie
>>>
>>> Jodie Hoger
>>
>> Hi,
>> You can see the Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI/
>>
>> There is a page for contact inaccessible websites
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Monique
>>
>> --
>> Monique Brunel
>> Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web - Mozilla Rep Conférences -
>> Ateliers - Conseil - Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
>> | http://blog.webatou.info | http://aliaz.com/monique-brunel |
>> | www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > >

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 12:19PM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

John B. wrote: "How about ... http://webaim.org/intro/"

Thanks for reminding me, John. The material is quite good, concise,
to-the-point, and, ultimately, very useful to developers.

One complaint:
The website for this material isn't in a cohesive training format: that is,
once I click on a topic such as Alt-text, I can't quickly navigate to the
other topics like Creating Accessible Tables. I have to navigate with the
browser's back button or switch windows when the module opens in a separate
window.

The navigation at the top of the page within the article is good. The
problem is getting to the other articles.

A way to correct this would be to add navigation just for the training
modules themselves as most traditional training websites do, either in the
left nav or as a separate <DIV> somewhere on the page.

In training parlance, this "training navigation" shows the different modules
or topics in the training and allows the user to see where they are in the
course and put the material into context with the other modules. In other
words, it quickly tells the user where they are and what else they need to
cover in the training.

It grounds the learner.

-Bevi
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.PubCom.com - Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
Accessibility.
New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.

From: GF Mueden@
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 2:18PM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | Next message →

Ref "How about...
http://webaim.org/intro/"

I really don't like it. The causes don't matter, it is the disabilities that need to be addressed.
There are two important groups of the low visioned to be served, ete readers who read with their eyes but not well, and ear readers who read with their ears with text to speech technology. The fixes and accommodations for these two groups are quite different and what helps one group is generally of no use to the other. I will speak about the eye readers needs and let others address the needs od ear readers.

Ete readers may have have our principal disabilities:
(1) Poor acuity, sharpness of focus. The fix is magnification and the accommodation is word wrap to keep the copy on the screen.
(2) Poor contrast sensitivity, the ability to distinguish between shades of gray or colors, distinguishing foreground fron background. The fix is our abolity to change fonts to bold ones and control colors. The accommodation is being let to do it and formatting may interfere.
(3) Limited visual field which may be due to retinal damage or such poor acuity that the eye is close to the screen. The fix is having the copy in a narroe column and having word wrap to keep the copy within the column. [visibilitymetrics.com does it well.]
(4) Color blindness, the eye not reporting to the brain the colors that normal eyes see. That's this layman's definition. What can be done about it is beyond me.

I would like to see a presentation similar to mine done for ear reades, listing the problems and how to fix them, but in laymans terms that management would understand as well as the techies.

George


On 4/29/2013 1:22 PM, John E Brandt wrote:
> How about...
> http://webaim.org/intro/

From: Bronwyn Lapham
Date: Mon, Apr 29 2013 10:32PM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites (Hoger, Jodie)
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jodie

I work for the Australian National VET E-learning Strategy, and we have
published what we hope to be a reasonably clear and helpful guide for
teachers and devs<http://e-standards.flexiblelearning.net.au/implementation/accessibility/accessibility_guide_for_teachers/index.php>;.
There is navigation to move between examples of potential problem
areas
with examples of good and bad practice.

You are welcome to contact me if I can be of help at
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

regards

Bronwyn Lapham

From: Dave Merrill
Date: Tue, Apr 30 2013 5:13AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites (Hoger, Jodie)
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bronwyn, your guide looks very useful. I have a couple of questions, for
you and anyone else who'd like to chime in, if you don't mind. Please
excuse any obvious questions, I'm new to accessibility.

- You recommend the XHTML 1.0 Transitional doctype. Is there a problem
using HTML5?

- The navigation section doesn't mention the use of heading tags (h1-h6),
or ARIA roles. I thought both were commonly used by screen reader users to
discover content and navigate within the page. Am I wrong that they're
important?

- I wasn't aware of the idea that purely decorative images should have
empty alt text. I thought all images should have alt text describing the
image or its functionality within the page. Do screen
readers completely skip images with no alt text, or are they announced as
unlabeled?

Just to be clear, none of this is meant as criticism, just me trying
to understand what's important, and how to best get there.

Thanks,
Dave Merrill


On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:32 AM, Bronwyn Lapham < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi Jodie
>
> I work for the Australian National VET E-learning Strategy, and we have
> published what we hope to be a reasonably clear and helpful guide for
> teachers and devs<
> http://e-standards.flexiblelearning.net.au/implementation/accessibility/accessibility_guide_for_teachers/index.php
> >.
> There is navigation to move between examples of potential problem
> areas
> with examples of good and bad practice.
>
> You are welcome to contact me if I can be of help at
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> regards
>
> Bronwyn Lapham
> > > >



--
Dave Merrill

From: Bronwyn Lapham
Date: Tue, Apr 30 2013 11:40PM
Subject: Re: Subject:need some help re problem sites (Dave Merril)
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Dave

To put this in context, Jodie and I both work in the Australian Vocational
Education and Training sector. The recommendations made in that document
are aimed at people in that sector, and include our national technical
"e"-standards. Because a significant number of users are still using
old-ish technology (we dropped IE6 last year), the e-standards attempt to
provide as interoperable an environment as possible. I should also mention
the document is aimed primarily at providing guidance and principles of
accessibility to teachers - it looks a bit "WCAGgy" but we were trying to
present the info in a somewhat less challenging and more friendly way.
Based on your previous posts I think you have a technical background and
would be perhaps better served by the WebAIM site, or the W3C techniques,
or one of the other sites that have more technical depth rather than ours.

We have a watching brief on HTML5. Until our users migrate to more current
browsers (often controlled by IT departments in large tertiary education
institutions) we'll stick with XHTML 1.0 as our safest option.

I'm certainly no expert on ARIA - I understand it is still in development,
and we would not recommend a draft standard (again - in this particular
context).

And it's my understanding that only if an image conveys information (that
does include creating a mood or evoking a feeling) should its alt attribute
have a value. I heard of an instance of a web page read by a screen reader
that included "One pixel transparent gif used as a spacer" multiple times.
Imagine! I think that different screen readers will behave differently if
there is no alt attribute, including going so far as to read out the path
to the image and its name.

There are far more expert people on this list than I, and I *really* hope
they will weigh in.

cheers

Bronwyn

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dave Merrill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc:
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:13:05 -0400
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites (Hoger, Jodie)
Hi Bronwyn, your guide looks very useful. I have a couple of questions, for
you and anyone else who'd like to chime in, if you don't mind. Please
excuse any obvious questions, I'm new to accessibility.

- You recommend the XHTML 1.0 Transitional doctype. Is there a problem
using HTML5?

- The navigation section doesn't mention the use of heading tags (h1-h6),
or ARIA roles. I thought both were commonly used by screen reader users to
discover content and navigate within the page. Am I wrong that they're
important?

- I wasn't aware of the idea that purely decorative images should have
empty alt text. I thought all images should have alt text describing the
image or its functionality within the page. Do screen
readers completely skip images with no alt text, or are they announced as
unlabeled?

Just to be clear, none of this is meant as criticism, just me trying
to understand what's important, and how to best get there.

Thanks,
Dave Merrill

From: Dave Merrill
Date: Wed, May 01 2013 5:17AM
Subject: Re: Subject:need some help re problem sites (Dave Merril)
← Previous message | Next message →

@Bronwyn, thanks for getting back. I understand that your site is intended
to be less technical and more approachable, which is one of the things I
thought was great about it. In an ideal world, non- or semi-technical
people who were interested in improving the accessibility of their site
wouldn't have to wade through mountains of technical specs to learn about
the issues and general approaches to fixing them.

You're right that I'm a tech-y (developer for a commercial content
management software product). In that light, let me just say that if you
(or others) see significant benefit to HTML5 techniques, there are "shims"
available, small pieces of stylesheet and javascript code that improve
compatibility with older browsers a great deal. The CSS is helpful for all
older browsers. The javascript is only needed for versions of Internet
Explorer older than version 8, and of course will only work if javascript
is enabled, leaving IE users with javascrpit disabled or accessing sites on
devices that don't run javascript at all possibly unable to access some
content. If, given those limitations, you or any tech folks on your team
would like more information, let me know.

Dave Merrill

Dave Merrill


On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Bronwyn Lapham < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:

> Hi Dave
>
> To put this in context, Jodie and I both work in the Australian Vocational
> Education and Training sector. The recommendations made in that document
> are aimed at people in that sector, and include our national technical
> "e"-standards. Because a significant number of users are still using
> old-ish technology (we dropped IE6 last year), the e-standards attempt to
> provide as interoperable an environment as possible. I should also mention
> the document is aimed primarily at providing guidance and principles of
> accessibility to teachers - it looks a bit "WCAGgy" but we were trying to
> present the info in a somewhat less challenging and more friendly way.
> Based on your previous posts I think you have a technical background and
> would be perhaps better served by the WebAIM site, or the W3C techniques,
> or one of the other sites that have more technical depth rather than ours.
>
> We have a watching brief on HTML5. Until our users migrate to more current
> browsers (often controlled by IT departments in large tertiary education
> institutions) we'll stick with XHTML 1.0 as our safest option.
>
> I'm certainly no expert on ARIA - I understand it is still in development,
> and we would not recommend a draft standard (again - in this particular
> context).
>
> And it's my understanding that only if an image conveys information (that
> does include creating a mood or evoking a feeling) should its alt attribute
> have a value. I heard of an instance of a web page read by a screen reader
> that included "One pixel transparent gif used as a spacer" multiple times.
> Imagine! I think that different screen readers will behave differently if
> there is no alt attribute, including going so far as to read out the path
> to the image and its name.
>
> There are far more expert people on this list than I, and I *really* hope
> they will weigh in.
>
> cheers
>
> Bronwyn
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dave Merrill < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 07:13:05 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites (Hoger, Jodie)
> Hi Bronwyn, your guide looks very useful. I have a couple of questions, for
> you and anyone else who'd like to chime in, if you don't mind. Please
> excuse any obvious questions, I'm new to accessibility.
>
> - You recommend the XHTML 1.0 Transitional doctype. Is there a problem
> using HTML5?
>
> - The navigation section doesn't mention the use of heading tags (h1-h6),
> or ARIA roles. I thought both were commonly used by screen reader users to
> discover content and navigate within the page. Am I wrong that they're
> important?
>
> - I wasn't aware of the idea that purely decorative images should have
> empty alt text. I thought all images should have alt text describing the
> image or its functionality within the page. Do screen
> readers completely skip images with no alt text, or are they announced as
> unlabeled?
>
> Just to be clear, none of this is meant as criticism, just me trying
> to understand what's important, and how to best get there.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave Merrill
> > > >



--
Dave Merrill

From: Shawn Henry
Date: Wed, May 01 2013 6:45AM
Subject: Re: need some help re problem sites
← Previous message | No next message

Hi WebAIM folks,

I agree with Bevi on some points. And I have good news related to those points!

Indeed, most of the material on the W3C website is technical specifications, not tutorials for beginners. WCAG [1] itself is a robust standard -- certainly not a beginner's guide. And the supporting material (Understanding WCAG 2.0 & Techniques for WCAG 2.0, linked from [1]) is intended to be detailed. I think "How to Meet WCAG 2.0" [2] helps with using the information, yet right now it also has just the standards and detailed language. (We have talked about revising "How to Meet WCAG 2.0" to also help those who are new to web accessibility, as well as those who are evaluating web accessibility. We might be able to get to that before too long.) While it's not a tutorial, for those who want an overview of WCAG we have WCAG 2 at a Glance <http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/glance/>;

We do have introductions to accessibility for specific audiences:
* Accessibility - W3C <http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility>;
* Web accessibility basics <http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/concepts/accessibility>;

For people developing training, we have a range of material under <http://www.w3.org/WAI/train>;, including guidance on Developing Web Accessibility Presentations and Training <http://www.w3.org/WAI/training/>;.

Good news: We're developing tutorials that will cover some of the basic issues (as well as some advanced). In May, we hope to put the drafts of the first ones up at their final URI. We're also working on "Easy Checks - A First Review of Web Accessibility" and hope to put that up in May as well. (We prefer not to spread the draft URIs because it complicates people finding the real resources when they're in place.) We'll update this thread when these are in place.

WAI has a long list of things we would like to develop to help people get started with web accessibility. We welcome resources to help! If you might be interested in participating in the Education and Outreach Working Group, please do contact me: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = or +1-617-395-7664.

For now, I think *the best place to point people to for understanding the basic concepts behind what you need to do to make the web accessible* is a sub-page of the resource How People with Disabilities Use the Web:
Accessibility Principles
http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/people-use-web/principles

Best regards,
~Shawn

[1] WCAG - Web Content Accessibility Guidelines <http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php>;
[2] How to Meet WCAG 2.0 <http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/>;


-----
Shawn Lawton Henry
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
e-mail: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
phone: +1.617.395.7664
about: http://www.w3.org/People/Shawn/


On 4/29/2013 11:15 AM, Chagnon | PubCom wrote:
> If you want a sighted web developer/owner to understand your needs, then
> don't send them to www.w3.org, WAI, or WCAG.
> The websites are overwhelming.
>
> When I teach accessibility to developers, authors, and others who create the
> material you want to access, my students' first reaction to any of these
> websites is not positive. In fact, I can't reproduce their comments here.
> Within a few minutes of scanning the websites, they want to bolt from the
> classroom and never return to learn about accessibility.
>
> The problem is that the overviews and technical sections aren't written and
> visually designed well enough for the average visitor. They are dense,
> text-heavy, unattractive, and difficult to skim. In other words, they do not
> communicate the message well.
>
> We need a reference website that's written to guide and encourage developers
> to fix the most critical barriers first, and then build in the other items.
> W3C/WAI/WCAG websites don't meet that need: they instead throw everything at
> the reader, expecting them to dissect an enormous amount of detail in a
> short period of time, to run a marathon when they're not even taking baby
> steps yet.
>
> I don't know of any web developer out there with spare time to spend reading
> these websites. There is no "short version" of the website or a top-10-list
> of things to do to make a website more accessible.
>
> No wonder they don't make their websites accessible.
>
> —Bevi Chagnon
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> www.PubCom.com — Trainers, Consultants, Designers, Developers.
> Print, Web, Acrobat, XML, eBooks, and U.S. Federal Section 508
> Accessibility.
> New schedule for classes and workshops coming in 2013.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 7:52 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need some help re problem sites
>
> Here is a link to w3c's guidelines on letting site owners know with
> sample email... http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/responding/


I'm glad you find this useful!

Note that URI is an old draft. The published version is at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible.html>;

~Shawn


>
> Often site owners need education... smaller site owners often user
> Site-building tools and don't know much about html or there is any problems,
> even with larger sites their development staff doesn't know about
> accessbility
>
> Nancy
>
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Monique Brunel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>> Le 29/04/2013 06:54, Hoger, Jodie a écrit :
>>> Hi List, I work in post-secondary education supporting students who are
> blind or vision impaired and am blind myself. I am constantly faced with
> needing to use external (and sometimes internal) sites that are very poorly
> designed re access. For example, publishers of textbooks etc. I am not a
> techy so can't provide that type of assistance or advice but what I am
> seeking is a good basic document or website that I can pass on to the devs
> of these sites to assist them in at least doing some tweaking to make their
> sites more user friendly to all. Is there such a beast? I want to be able to
> email them and include the link or document to get them started.
>>> I would love some help here if you know of anything because it drives me
> nuts and seriously slows down my efficiency in my job crawling through these
> messes with a screen reader.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jodie
>>>
>>> Jodie Hoger
>>
>> Hi,
>> You can see the Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI/
>>
>> There is a page for contact inaccessible websites
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/inaccessible
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Monique
>>
>> --
>> Monique Brunel
>> Accessibilité et qualité des sites Web - Mozilla Rep Conférences -
>> Ateliers - Conseil - Tél. +32(0)473 25 81 94
>> | http://blog.webatou.info | http://aliaz.com/monique-brunel |
>> | www.opquast.com | www.openweb.eu.org | www.mozilla-belgium.org |
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > >