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Thread: Complex Tables on PDFs
Number of posts in this thread: 6 (In chronological order)
From: Rabab Gomaa
Date: Thu, Oct 17 2013 1:32PM
Subject: Complex Tables on PDFs
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Hello,=20
=20
I didn't see in the PDF WCAG techniques any example on coding ID/headers =
in a PDF.=20
Does this mean that ID/headers are not required for complex tables in =
PDF? using TR,TH,TD structure is enough?
=20
Rabab
From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Thu, Oct 17 2013 1:43PM
Subject: Re: Complex Tables on PDFs
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Hi Rabab,
tagged PDF does support IDs and headers to express complex table cell relationships.
In Acrobat Pro it is possible in principle (but not in an elegant or efficient fashion) to create IDs for table cells and to referenced them in header entries in other cells. I do not know pif anybody who has actually used this in production (it is just too cumbersome).
For InDesign CS 5.5 and newer axaio (the company I work for) has created a plug-in called MadeToTag (for fully functional demos see www.axaio.com), which makes it relatively easy to prepare complex tables for export to tagged PDF, such that MadeToTag post-processes the InDesign exported PDF and injects the necessary IDs and headers into the table structures.
If I am not mistaken the axesPDF plug-in (developed by xyMedia, www.xymedia.ch) for Microsoft Word offers a similar feature for PDFs created in Microsoft Word.
To the best of my knowledge, for complex tables that do have non-trivial column and/or row headers, IDs and headers would be the only way to tag them properly.
Olaf
Am 17 Oct 2013 um 21:32 schrieb Rabab Gomaa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> I didn't see in the PDF WCAG techniques any example on coding ID/headers in a PDF.
> Does this mean that ID/headers are not required for complex tables in PDF? using TR,TH,TD structure is enough?
From: Kroon, Kurtis@FTB
Date: Fri, Oct 18 2013 12:20PM
Subject: Re: Complex Tables on PDFs
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Another alternative, which we recommend to our content providers, is to simplify the table -- breaking it up into several tables, if necessary -- so that it only requires headers with a defined scope.
Of course, it doesn't always work that way, but we do try.
Thanks!
Kurtis Kroon
Analyst, Web Business Services
Franchise Tax Board
916·845·5603
-----Original Message-----
From: Olaf Drümmer [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:43
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Complex Tables on PDFs
Hi Rabab,
tagged PDF does support IDs and headers to express complex table cell relationships.
In Acrobat Pro it is possible in principle (but not in an elegant or efficient fashion) to create IDs for table cells and to referenced them in header entries in other cells. I do not know pif anybody who has actually used this in production (it is just too cumbersome).
For InDesign CS 5.5 and newer axaio (the company I work for) has created a plug-in called MadeToTag (for fully functional demos see www.axaio.com), which makes it relatively easy to prepare complex tables for export to tagged PDF, such that MadeToTag post-processes the InDesign exported PDF and injects the necessary IDs and headers into the table structures.
If I am not mistaken the axesPDF plug-in (developed by xyMedia, www.xymedia.ch) for Microsoft Word offers a similar feature for PDFs created in Microsoft Word.
To the best of my knowledge, for complex tables that do have non-trivial column and/or row headers, IDs and headers would be the only way to tag them properly.
Olaf
Am 17 Oct 2013 um 21:32 schrieb Rabab Gomaa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> I didn't see in the PDF WCAG techniques any example on coding ID/headers in a PDF.
> Does this mean that ID/headers are not required for complex tables in PDF? using TR,TH,TD structure is enough?
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review or use, including disclosure or distribution, is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this email.
From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Fri, Oct 18 2013 12:38PM
Subject: Re: Complex Tables on PDFs
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Kurtis,
That's a great point. I often work with teams to simplify their content
into plainer language and clearer presentation. It works for everyone AND
makes it easier to make documents technically accessible in any medium.
I talk about it as "Content for Everyone" and find that I get more traction
that way.
http://www.slideshare.net/whitneyq/content-for-everyone-20599326
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kroon, Kurtis@FTB
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >wrote:
> Another alternative, which we recommend to our content providers, is to
> simplify the table -- breaking it up into several tables, if necessary --
> so that it only requires headers with a defined scope.
>
> Of course, it doesn't always work that way, but we do try.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kurtis Kroon
> Analyst, Web Business Services
> Franchise Tax Board
> 916·845·5603
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Olaf Drümmer [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
> Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:43
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Complex Tables on PDFs
>
> Hi Rabab,
>
> tagged PDF does support IDs and headers to express complex table cell
> relationships.
>
> In Acrobat Pro it is possible in principle (but not in an elegant or
> efficient fashion) to create IDs for table cells and to referenced them in
> header entries in other cells. I do not know pif anybody who has actually
> used this in production (it is just too cumbersome).
>
> For InDesign CS 5.5 and newer axaio (the company I work for) has created a
> plug-in called MadeToTag (for fully functional demos see www.axaio.com),
> which makes it relatively easy to prepare complex tables for export to
> tagged PDF, such that MadeToTag post-processes the InDesign exported PDF
> and injects the necessary IDs and headers into the table structures.
>
> If I am not mistaken the axesPDF plug-in (developed by xyMedia,
> www.xymedia.ch) for Microsoft Word offers a similar feature for PDFs
> created in Microsoft Word.
>
>
> To the best of my knowledge, for complex tables that do have non-trivial
> column and/or row headers, IDs and headers would be the only way to tag
> them properly.
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
> Am 17 Oct 2013 um 21:32 schrieb Rabab Gomaa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >:
>
> > I didn't see in the PDF WCAG techniques any example on coding
> ID/headers in a PDF.
> > Does this mean that ID/headers are not required for complex tables in
> PDF? using TR,TH,TD structure is enough?
>
>
> > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is for the
> sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review or use, including
> disclosure or distribution, is prohibited. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this email.
> > > >
--
Whitney Quesenbery
www.wqusability.com | @whitneyq
Storytelling for User Experience
www.rosenfeldmedia.com/books/storytelling
Global UX: Design and research in a connected world
@globalUX | www.amazon.com/gp/product/012378591X/
From: Rabab Gomaa
Date: Fri, Oct 18 2013 12:48PM
Subject: Re: Complex Tables on PDFs
← Previous message | Next message →
Hello,=20
=20
I find those pages provide good examples of table simplification.=20
http://wet-boew.github.io/wet-boew/demos/opt-cont/tbl-simp-en.html
http://webaim.org/techniques/tables/data=20
=20
Rabab
>>> Whitney Quesenbery <whitneyq=40gmail.com> 2013-10-18 2:38 PM >>>
Kurtis,
That=27s a great point. I often work with teams to simplify their
content
into plainer language and clearer presentation. It works for everyone
AND
makes it easier to make documents technically accessible in any
medium.
I talk about it as =22Content for Everyone=22 and find that I get more
traction
that way.
http://www.slideshare.net/whitneyq/content-for-everyone-20599326
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kroon, Kurtis=40FTB
<Kurtis.Kroon=40ftb.ca.gov>wrote:
> Another alternative, which we recommend to our content providers, is
to
> simplify the table -- breaking it up into several tables, if
necessary --
> so that it only requires headers with a defined scope.
>
> Of course, it doesn=27t always work that way, but we do try.
>
> Thanks=21
>
> Kurtis Kroon
> Analyst, Web Business Services
> Franchise Tax Board
> 916=C2=B7845=C2=B75603
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Olaf Dr=C3=BCmmer =5Bmailto:olaf=40druemmer.com=5D
> Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:43
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: =5BWebAIM=5D Complex Tables on PDFs
>
> Hi Rabab,
>
> tagged PDF does support IDs and headers to express complex table
cell
> relationships.
>
> In Acrobat Pro it is possible in principle (but not in an elegant or
> efficient fashion) to create IDs for table cells and to referenced
them in
> header entries in other cells. I do not know pif anybody who has
actually
> used this in production (it is just too cumbersome).
>
> For InDesign CS 5.5 and newer axaio (the company I work for) has
created a
> plug-in called MadeToTag (for fully functional demos see
www.axaio.com),
> which makes it relatively easy to prepare complex tables for export
to
> tagged PDF, such that MadeToTag post-processes the InDesign exported
PDF
> and injects the necessary IDs and headers into the table structures.
>
> If I am not mistaken the axesPDF plug-in (developed by xyMedia,
> www.xymedia.ch) for Microsoft Word offers a similar feature for PDFs
> created in Microsoft Word.
>
>
> To the best of my knowledge, for complex tables that do have
non-trivial
> column and/or row headers, IDs and headers would be the only way to
tag
> them properly.
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
> Am 17 Oct 2013 um 21:32 schrieb Rabab Gomaa
<Rabab.Gomaa=40inspection.gc.ca
> >:
>
> > I didn=27t see in the PDF WCAG techniques any example on coding
> ID/headers in a PDF.
> > Does this mean that ID/headers are not required for complex tables
in
> PDF? using TR,TH,TD structure is enough?
>
>
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email from the State of California is
for the
> sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
> privileged information. Any unauthorized review or use, including
> disclosure or distribution, is prohibited. If you are not the
intended
> recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of this
email.
> > > >
--=20
Whitney Quesenbery
www.wqusability.com =7C =40whitneyq
Storytelling for User Experience
www.rosenfeldmedia.com/books/storytelling
Global UX: Design and research in a connected world
=40globalUX =7C www.amazon.com/gp/product/012378591X/
From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Fri, Oct 18 2013 2:04PM
Subject: Re: Complex Tables on PDFs
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Hi Rabab,
Am 18 Oct 2013 um 20:48 schrieb Rabab Gomaa < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> I find those pages provide good examples of table simplification.
> http://wet-boew.github.io/wet-boew/demos/opt-cont/tbl-simp-en.html
to my taste this is taking accessibility too far in many cases - once simplified in this fashion, the tables tend to become much less usable for many users.
Tables are a valid presentational concept, regardless of ability and disability. Where information is related in complex ways, tables might be the only efficient means for presentation. Splitting a complex table into a bunch of less complex tables can make it more difficult to read and understand such information. Tables express relationship between data or information inside it, splitting tables discards some of these relationship aspects, or makes it more cumbersome to retrieve them.
Whenever a discussion like this comes up I wonder why assistive technology does not come up with approaches of simplified presentation of tables. The principles explained on the page mentioned above can be applied on the fly by a tool like a screen reader (but also by a viewer on a mobile phone with its small display). Why are we not asking more from the tools we use, instead of applying violence to content and its most efficient form of presentation.
Disclaimer: As always, tables like any other type of content or presentation need to have their target audience in mind. Some complex tables will never work for their indented audience, and might have to be simplified in one way or another.
Olaf