E-mail List Archives

Thread: advise on complex table

for

Number of posts in this thread: 13 (In chronological order)

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2014 2:47PM
Subject: advise on complex table
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,
I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is possible to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
It's the one at the bottom of the page. http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .

Thank you for taking a look.

Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2014 2:53PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined so
that each cell has a descriptor of what it is

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

Hello,
I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is possible
to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
It's the one at the bottom of the page.
http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .

Thank you for taking a look.

Angela French
Internet Specialist
State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
360-704-4316
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;

From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2014 4:33PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Well, one reason it's hard to make heads or tails of is because it's all in
acronyms - presumably meaningful to bean counters.

You could simplify the table a great deal if you pulled Music, Art, Drama,
Auditorium out of it and put them in a bulleted list below, since they just
have one "whatever those things are" across the board.

I'd define the acronyms above the table, and link to the notes below the
table, but not in cells.


On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined so
> that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Hello,
> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is possible
> to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>
> Thank you for taking a look.
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>
> > > > > > >

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2014 4:45PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank might work to take out the Music, Art, Drama. Will have to discuss with the content owner. Regarding acronyms, yeah anyone reading this policy manual know that an FTE is a full-time enrolled student. Is there a good way to indicate "non-applicable" to screen readers? Is N/A understood aurally as it is visually?

I understand about the notes being in rows. I did make a note of that one. I'm trying to get all the possible suggestions together before I dive in and present a solution to the content owner.

Thanks!


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney Quesenbery
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:34 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

Well, one reason it's hard to make heads or tails of is because it's all in acronyms - presumably meaningful to bean counters.

You could simplify the table a great deal if you pulled Music, Art, Drama, Auditorium out of it and put them in a bulleted list below, since they just have one "whatever those things are" across the board.

I'd define the acronyms above the table, and link to the notes below the table, but not in cells.


On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined so
> that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
> California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela
> French
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Hello,
> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is
> possible to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>
> Thank you for taking a look.
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2014 7:25PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

I would (based on a quick review):

1. Remove non-tabular elements from the table, particularly the
footnote type things starting in row 19
"FTE Type 1: Day On Campus w/o Online (Catagory 3N)
..."
It is never good when non-tabular info is mixed with tabular info
inside a single table, it confuses the heck out of the user.

2. The h5 heading with the table title "
Assignable Square Feet (ASF) per FTE Student ", in the first row of
the table (td cell with colspan=5) is ok, but it should rather be the
<caption> element for the table. I now those can be tricky to style
using CSS, so one may want to move it ouside the table and just make
it a heading.

3. The first column (rows 3 through 18) cells should be th cells with
scope="row, this is "general class room" "basic skills" etc.

4. The td cells in row 2 "
"Academic FTE" etc. should be <th> cells with scope="colgroup", and
should not have rowspan="1". This way they are associated with all the
columns underneath them (this works well with Jaws and NVDA, does not
work with Voiceover, but neither does header/id association)..
So "Academic FTE" td cell should be th with colspan="2" and scope="colgroup".

5. The td cells in the third row of the table "First 1000" and
"additional", and so on, should be th cells with scope="col".

6. Entries with td cells with colspan=6, such as "art" and "drama"
should be put in the last two rows of the table.

Screen readers recognize scope="colgroup" and will read the
appropriate headers for the colgroup as well as the individual
columnss.

The values in the first column should be the rowheader for the table.
Once you remove the non-tabular datafrom of the table data does not
get in the way of understanding the table construct.
Cheers
-B


On 4/17/14, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thank might work to take out the Music, Art, Drama. Will have to discuss
> with the content owner. Regarding acronyms, yeah anyone reading this policy
> manual know that an FTE is a full-time enrolled student. Is there a good
> way to indicate "non-applicable" to screen readers? Is N/A understood
> aurally as it is visually?
>
> I understand about the notes being in rows. I did make a note of that one.
> I'm trying to get all the possible suggestions together before I dive in and
> present a solution to the content owner.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney
> Quesenbery
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:34 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Well, one reason it's hard to make heads or tails of is because it's all in
> acronyms - presumably meaningful to bean counters.
>
> You could simplify the table a great deal if you pulled Music, Art, Drama,
> Auditorium out of it and put them in a bulleted list below, since they just
> have one "whatever those things are" across the board.
>
> I'd define the acronyms above the table, and link to the notes below the
> table, but not in cells.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
>> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined so
>> that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
>> California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela
>> French
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
>> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
>> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>>
>> Hello,
>> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is
>> possible to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
>> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
>> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>>
>> Thank you for taking a look.
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet Specialist
>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: nicole detko
Date: Thu, Apr 17 2014 8:09PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Please take me off your list. I got to confirmation I was off but I am still
getting emails
thanks

Cordially
Nicole Detko
VIA NEW MEDIA INC.
Creative and interactive recruiting
(O) 917 574 6512
(C) # 917 902 7573
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =





-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 9:25 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

I would (based on a quick review):

1. Remove non-tabular elements from the table, particularly the footnote
type things starting in row 19 "FTE Type 1: Day On Campus w/o Online
(Catagory 3N) ..."
It is never good when non-tabular info is mixed with tabular info inside a
single table, it confuses the heck out of the user.

2. The h5 heading with the table title "
Assignable Square Feet (ASF) per FTE Student ", in the first row of
the table (td cell with colspan=5) is ok, but it should rather be the
<caption> element for the table. I now those can be tricky to style using
CSS, so one may want to move it ouside the table and just make it a heading.

3. The first column (rows 3 through 18) cells should be th cells with
scope="row, this is "general class room" "basic skills" etc.

4. The td cells in row 2 "
"Academic FTE" etc. should be <th> cells with scope="colgroup", and should
not have rowspan="1". This way they are associated with all the columns
underneath them (this works well with Jaws and NVDA, does not work with
Voiceover, but neither does header/id association)..
So "Academic FTE" td cell should be th with colspan="2" and
scope="colgroup".

5. The td cells in the third row of the table "First 1000" and "additional",
and so on, should be th cells with scope="col".

6. Entries with td cells with colspan=6, such as "art" and "drama"
should be put in the last two rows of the table.

Screen readers recognize scope="colgroup" and will read the appropriate
headers for the colgroup as well as the individual columnss.

The values in the first column should be the rowheader for the table.
Once you remove the non-tabular datafrom of the table data does not get in
the way of understanding the table construct.
Cheers
-B


On 4/17/14, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thank might work to take out the Music, Art, Drama. Will have to
> discuss with the content owner. Regarding acronyms, yeah anyone reading
this policy
> manual know that an FTE is a full-time enrolled student. Is there a good
> way to indicate "non-applicable" to screen readers? Is N/A understood
> aurally as it is visually?
>
> I understand about the notes being in rows. I did make a note of that
one.
> I'm trying to get all the possible suggestions together before I dive
> in and present a solution to the content owner.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney
> Quesenbery
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:34 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Well, one reason it's hard to make heads or tails of is because it's
> all in acronyms - presumably meaningful to bean counters.
>
> You could simplify the table a great deal if you pulled Music, Art,
> Drama, Auditorium out of it and put them in a bulleted list below,
> since they just have one "whatever those things are" across the board.
>
> I'd define the acronyms above the table, and link to the notes below
> the table, but not in cells.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
>> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined
>> so that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
>> California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela
>> French
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
>> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
>> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>>
>> Hello,
>> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is
>> possible to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
>> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
>> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>>
>> Thank you for taking a look.
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet Specialist
>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 4:23AM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Once the cells that contain title and explanations are separated from the actual table it looks pretty straightforward. There two rows of clumn headers (use scope column to express this) and one column of row headers (again, use scope row to express this). The rows for music/art/drama and for auditorium have a merged data cell (use column span for this). Two cells in the upper left are going to be empty TD cells.

Olaf

On 17 Apr 2014, at 22:53, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined so
> that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Hello,
> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is possible
> to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>
> Thank you for taking a look.
>
> Angela French
> Internet Specialist
> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> 360-704-4316
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>
> > > > > >

From: Angela French
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 10:59AM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Does this make sense now: http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx ?
Thanks for looking.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:25 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

I would (based on a quick review):

1. Remove non-tabular elements from the table, particularly the footnote type things starting in row 19 "FTE Type 1: Day On Campus w/o Online (Catagory 3N) ..."
It is never good when non-tabular info is mixed with tabular info inside a single table, it confuses the heck out of the user.

2. The h5 heading with the table title "
Assignable Square Feet (ASF) per FTE Student ", in the first row of
the table (td cell with colspan=5) is ok, but it should rather be the <caption> element for the table. I now those can be tricky to style using CSS, so one may want to move it ouside the table and just make it a heading.

3. The first column (rows 3 through 18) cells should be th cells with scope="row, this is "general class room" "basic skills" etc.

4. The td cells in row 2 "
"Academic FTE" etc. should be <th> cells with scope="colgroup", and should not have rowspan="1". This way they are associated with all the columns underneath them (this works well with Jaws and NVDA, does not work with Voiceover, but neither does header/id association)..
So "Academic FTE" td cell should be th with colspan="2" and scope="colgroup".

5. The td cells in the third row of the table "First 1000" and "additional", and so on, should be th cells with scope="col".

6. Entries with td cells with colspan=6, such as "art" and "drama"
should be put in the last two rows of the table.

Screen readers recognize scope="colgroup" and will read the appropriate headers for the colgroup as well as the individual columnss.

The values in the first column should be the rowheader for the table.
Once you remove the non-tabular datafrom of the table data does not get in the way of understanding the table construct.
Cheers
-B


On 4/17/14, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thank might work to take out the Music, Art, Drama. Will have to
> discuss with the content owner. Regarding acronyms, yeah anyone reading this policy
> manual know that an FTE is a full-time enrolled student. Is there a good
> way to indicate "non-applicable" to screen readers? Is N/A understood
> aurally as it is visually?
>
> I understand about the notes being in rows. I did make a note of that one.
> I'm trying to get all the possible suggestions together before I dive
> in and present a solution to the content owner.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney
> Quesenbery
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:34 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Well, one reason it's hard to make heads or tails of is because it's
> all in acronyms - presumably meaningful to bean counters.
>
> You could simplify the table a great deal if you pulled Music, Art,
> Drama, Auditorium out of it and put them in a bulleted list below,
> since they just have one "whatever those things are" across the board.
>
> I'd define the acronyms above the table, and link to the notes below
> the table, but not in cells.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
>> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined
>> so that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
>> California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela
>> French
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
>> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
>> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>>
>> Hello,
>> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is
>> possible to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
>> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
>> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>>
>> Thank you for taking a look.
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet Specialist
>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 11:03AM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Much better

Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
follow me on twitter @accessaces


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela French
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 9:59 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

Does this make sense now:
http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx ?
Thanks for looking.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
Gunnarsson
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 6:25 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

I would (based on a quick review):

1. Remove non-tabular elements from the table, particularly the footnote
type things starting in row 19 "FTE Type 1: Day On Campus w/o Online
(Catagory 3N) ..."
It is never good when non-tabular info is mixed with tabular info inside a
single table, it confuses the heck out of the user.

2. The h5 heading with the table title "
Assignable Square Feet (ASF) per FTE Student ", in the first row of
the table (td cell with colspan=5) is ok, but it should rather be the
<caption> element for the table. I now those can be tricky to style using
CSS, so one may want to move it ouside the table and just make it a
heading.

3. The first column (rows 3 through 18) cells should be th cells with
scope="row, this is "general class room" "basic skills" etc.

4. The td cells in row 2 "
"Academic FTE" etc. should be <th> cells with scope="colgroup", and should
not have rowspan="1". This way they are associated with all the columns
underneath them (this works well with Jaws and NVDA, does not work with
Voiceover, but neither does header/id association)..
So "Academic FTE" td cell should be th with colspan="2" and
scope="colgroup".

5. The td cells in the third row of the table "First 1000" and
"additional", and so on, should be th cells with scope="col".

6. Entries with td cells with colspan=6, such as "art" and "drama"
should be put in the last two rows of the table.

Screen readers recognize scope="colgroup" and will read the appropriate
headers for the colgroup as well as the individual columnss.

The values in the first column should be the rowheader for the table.
Once you remove the non-tabular datafrom of the table data does not get in
the way of understanding the table construct.
Cheers
-B


On 4/17/14, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thank might work to take out the Music, Art, Drama. Will have to
> discuss with the content owner. Regarding acronyms, yeah anyone reading
this policy
> manual know that an FTE is a full-time enrolled student. Is there a
good
> way to indicate "non-applicable" to screen readers? Is N/A understood
> aurally as it is visually?
>
> I understand about the notes being in rows. I did make a note of that
one.
> I'm trying to get all the possible suggestions together before I dive
> in and present a solution to the content owner.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney
> Quesenbery
> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 3:34 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>
> Well, one reason it's hard to make heads or tails of is because it's
> all in acronyms - presumably meaningful to bean counters.
>
> You could simplify the table a great deal if you pulled Music, Art,
> Drama, Auditorium out of it and put them in a bulleted list below,
> since they just have one "whatever those things are" across the board.
>
> I'd define the acronyms above the table, and link to the notes below
> the table, but not in cells.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 4:53 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I took a quick look and could not make heads or tails of it.
>> You might need to have specific header cells for each cell defined
>> so that each cell has a descriptor of what it is
>>
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration University of
>> California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Angela
>> French
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2014 1:48 PM
>> To: WebAim Forum ( = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = )
>> Subject: [WebAIM] advise on complex table
>>
>> Hello,
>> I came across this table on our website and am wondering if it is
>> possible to make it accessible. It looks pretty bad to me.
>> It's the one at the bottom of the page.
>> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6Append.aspx .
>>
>> Thank you for taking a look.
>>
>> Angela French
>> Internet Specialist
>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
>> 360-704-4316
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> www.checkoutacollege.com<;http://www.checkoutacollege.com>;
>> www.sbctc.edu<;http://www.sbctc.edu>;
>>
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> >> list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 11:12AM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

Angela,

> Does this make sense now: http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx ?

The last four rows - aren’t they better represented with a separate table, probably preceded with a title (or heading) such as “One-Time Spaces”?

If not, then I have to assume you intend the cells that begin with “A one-time…” to apply to all the column TH cells equally, and I doubt that’s the intended effect… unless the “one time” cells fit into the paradigm of “First 1,000” and “Additional” (the 2nd row of column headers) even if they do apply across the first row of THs.

I’m not sure your usage yet (ideally) matches the semantics you intend.

Duff.

From: Angela French
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 11:49AM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

New and improved: http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx .

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Duff Johnson
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 10:13 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] advise on complex table

Angela,

> Does this make sense now: http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx ?

The last four rows - aren't they better represented with a separate table, probably preceded with a title (or heading) such as "One-Time Spaces"?

If not, then I have to assume you intend the cells that begin with "A one-time..." to apply to all the column TH cells equally, and I doubt that's the intended effect... unless the "one time" cells fit into the paradigm of "First 1,000" and "Additional" (the 2nd row of column headers) even if they do apply across the first row of THs.

I'm not sure your usage yet (ideally) matches the semantics you intend.

Duff.

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 12:01PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | Next message →

> New and improved: http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx .

Very nice!

- A clean-up item: delete the last four rows in the first table - since you’ve made them into a separate table. :-)

- Another clean-up item: the title of the 2nd table needs adjustment - it’s a duplicate of the first table’s title.

- Lastly, you can tweak the contents of the “one time spaces” TD cells to leverage the fact that they refer to the column headers.

Then you are all set!

Duff.

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Fri, Apr 18 2014 3:26PM
Subject: Re: advise on complex table
← Previous message | No next message

Looks good!
The fundamental problem with tables is that people try to stick
everything into them, not just the content that should be in a table.
Cheers
-Birkir
Birkir Gunnarsson
Accessibility SME | Deque Systems


On 4/18/14, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> New and improved:
>> http://sbctc.edu/general/policymanual/_a-policymanual-ch6AppendNEW.aspx .
>
> Very nice!
>
> - A clean-up item: delete the last four rows in the first table - since
> you've made them into a separate table. :-)
>
> - Another clean-up item: the title of the 2nd table needs adjustment - it's
> a duplicate of the first table's title.
>
> - Lastly, you can tweak the contents of the "one time spaces" TD cells to
> leverage the fact that they refer to the column headers.
>
> Then you are all set!
>
> Duff.
> > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.