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Thread: EPUB-Experiences making them?

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Number of posts in this thread: 22 (In chronological order)

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 8:40AM
Subject: EPUB-Experiences making them?
No previous message | Next message →

HI All,

When I asked about PDFs and the tagging disappearance in Macs, Iphones and
Android devices Marco mentioned EPUBS as a possible alternative (thanks!).

I have been doing a lot of research into EPUBS. It looks like with the
newest version of them, they are way more accessible than before. As long
as one has a reader, then they could see a structure (similar to tagging)
in the devices above.

Has anyone made them? Advice overall on creation and use of EPUBS?

I know many publishers use this format, but I would love to hear from
others to see how they find them...

Thanks so much!

Cheers

Lisa

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 8:53AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

> Has anyone made them? Advice overall on creation and use of EPUBS?

Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF, EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.

Duff.

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 10:30AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> > Has anyone made them? Advice overall on creation and use of EPUBS?
>
> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>
> Duff.
>
> Hi Duff,

I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as they
wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
paragraphs)...and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
anything you can think of...

Cheers

Lisa

From: deborah.kaplan@suberic.net
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 10:36AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Lately I've been reading "Accessible EPUB 3", by Matt Garrish.
It's very handy.

https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/accessible-epub-3/9781449329297/

(If you don't have access to O'Reilly books or the online
library, you can get a free trial at Safari to look at the book.
But a lot of academic libraries and even some public library
systems have access to the network.)

Deborah Kaplan

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, L Snider wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> > Has anyone made them? Advice overall on creation and use of EPUBS?
>>
>> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
>> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
>> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>>
>> Duff.
>>
>> Hi Duff,
>
> I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
> research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as they
> wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
> paragraphs)...and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
> anything you can think of...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
> > > --

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 10:39AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Lisa,

>> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
>> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
>> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>>
>
> I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
> research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as they
> wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
> paragraphs)…

Why would books (or other publications) not include content that spans pages?

How else would books accommodate long (or wide) tables, lists, etc?

And indeed… how does EPUB handle the situation where a long paragraph breaks between pages, often in the middle of a sentence?

I would suggest caution in adopting a format that could not - in principle - accommodate such content (if that’s the case).

> and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
> anything you can think of...

As you correctly noted, EPUB is designed for publications. It’s not really a general-purpose electronic document format.

Thanks for the link, Deborah. Does the book include answers to questions about content that spans pages?

Duff.

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 10:56AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Deborah,

Thanks so much. I will need to check into it. I also found this tool, which
many use to convert PDFs into ePubs. However, I don't yet know if the
'accessible' part of the PDF transfers, I am trying to find that out now...
http://calibre-ebook.com/

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 11:36 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Lately I've been reading "Accessible EPUB 3", by Matt Garrish.
> It's very handy.
>
> https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/accessible-
> epub-3/9781449329297/
>
> (If you don't have access to O'Reilly books or the online
> library, you can get a free trial at Safari to look at the book.
> But a lot of academic libraries and even some public library
> systems have access to the network.)
>
> Deborah Kaplan
>
>

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 10:58AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Duff,

I need to do a ton of testing with this one...I can see where documents
that are like books in terms of layout and structure may be okay, but then
if one has a complex PDF with tables, images spanning, oh boy....

I also see that Daisy and ePub are looking at collaborating (started at the
beginning of 2014), now that is cool! Would like to see the result of
that...

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Lisa,
>
> >> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
> >> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
> >> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
> >>
> >
> > I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
> > research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as
> they
> > wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
> > paragraphs)…
>
> Why would books (or other publications) not include content that spans
> pages?
>
> How else would books accommodate long (or wide) tables, lists, etc?
>
> And indeed… how does EPUB handle the situation where a long paragraph
> breaks between pages, often in the middle of a sentence?
>
> I would suggest caution in adopting a format that could not - in principle
> - accommodate such content (if that’s the case).
>
> > and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
> > anything you can think of...
>
> As you correctly noted, EPUB is designed for publications. It’s not really
> a general-purpose electronic document format.
>
> Thanks for the link, Deborah. Does the book include answers to questions
> about content that spans pages?
>
> Duff.
> > > >

From: deborah.kaplan@suberic.net
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 11:25AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't believe this is the case, at least not with EPUB 3. The
IDPF accessibility guidelines for EPUB 3 specifically talk about
putting how to add page numbers in page-spinning lists, for
example:

http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/guidelines/content/xhtml/pagenum.php#xhtm020-faq04

Deborah Kaplan

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Duff Johnson wrote:

> Lisa,
>
>>> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
>>> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
>>> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>>>
>>
>> I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
>> research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as they
>> wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
>> paragraphs)…
>
> Why would books (or other publications) not include content that spans pages?
>
> How else would books accommodate long (or wide) tables, lists, etc?
>
> And indeed… how does EPUB handle the situation where a long paragraph breaks between pages, often in the middle of a sentence?
>
> I would suggest caution in adopting a format that could not - in principle - accommodate such content (if that’s the case).
>
>> and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
>> anything you can think of...
>
> As you correctly noted, EPUB is designed for publications. It’s not really a general-purpose electronic document format.
>
> Thanks for the link, Deborah. Does the book include answers to questions about content that spans pages?
>
> Duff.
> > > >
>

--

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 11:38AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Matt's book (from February 2012; it's actually a portion of his EPUB 3 Best Practices book) is a good starting point, and the best is you can get it
-> free of charge
from Amazon (in which case it would ironically not be an EPUB, but a MOBI file….), and also O'Reilly is offering it free of charge (http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920025283.do), and you'll get an EPUB. In both cases though you have to set up an account with Amazon or O'Reilly…

Olaf


On 3 Dec 2014, at 18:36, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> Lately I've been reading "Accessible EPUB 3", by Matt Garrish.
> It's very handy.
>
> https://www.safaribooksonline.com/library/view/accessible-epub-3/9781449329297/
>
> (If you don't have access to O'Reilly books or the online
> library, you can get a free trial at Safari to look at the book.
> But a lot of academic libraries and even some public library
> systems have access to the network.)

From: Olaf Drümmer
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 11:47AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Please keep in mind that the original idea had been to make EPUB completely page-free, with content flowing as needed. Where a page oriented viewer is used pagination would happen in an ad hoc manner, controlled by the viewer, and its configuration through the user. [If you can't think right away of a not page oriented viewer, think of a text to speech presentation of the book content in an audio-book like fashion.]

Those promoting this 'page-free' concept were probably surprised by the fact that the world isn't ready yet to say good bye to the concept of pages, even not for electronic publication content (I agree with Duff that EPUB is probably not a suitable carrier for documents in general). Thus page-related features are creeping in from all sides. The concept of page numbers had to be introduced, and one of the most favourite recently added features is … fixed layout (as in: each page has its own spatial arrangement of content items). So much about theory and practice of 'page-free'.

Olaf


On 3 Dec 2014, at 19:25, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:

> I don't believe this is the case, at least not with EPUB 3. The
> IDPF accessibility guidelines for EPUB 3 specifically talk about
> putting how to add page numbers in page-spinning lists, for
> example:
>
> http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/guidelines/content/xhtml/pagenum.php#xhtm020-faq04
>
> Deborah Kaplan
>
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Duff Johnson wrote:
>
>> Lisa,
>>
>>>> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
>>>> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
>>>> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
>>> research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as they
>>> wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
>>> paragraphs)…
>>
>> Why would books (or other publications) not include content that spans pages?
>>
>> How else would books accommodate long (or wide) tables, lists, etc?
>>
>> And indeed… how does EPUB handle the situation where a long paragraph breaks between pages, often in the middle of a sentence?
>>
>> I would suggest caution in adopting a format that could not - in principle - accommodate such content (if that’s the case).
>>
>>> and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
>>> anything you can think of...
>>
>> As you correctly noted, EPUB is designed for publications. It’s not really a general-purpose electronic document format.
>>
>> Thanks for the link, Deborah. Does the book include answers to questions about content that spans pages?
>>
>> Duff.
>> >> >> >>
>>
>
> -- > >

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Wed, Dec 03 2014 4:32PM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Lisa,

Leaving aside tables, etc, results may depend on the question of fixed-page EPUB or not. And as Olaf pointed out, it turns out that people like fixed-page EPUB in many cases. In these cases they will be dealing with how paragraphs and other content break between pages. There’s no avoiding it.

Back to the best-practice question: I guess EPUB-oriented publishing tools would include this limitation naturally, and simply not make it possible to author the types of content I’m referring to.

I look forward to hearing the results of your testing!

FWIW, PDF 2.0 will provide for comprehensive mapping of DAISY tags to PDF structure elements - including for such bugbears as page numbers.

Duff.

On Dec 3, 2014, at 12:58, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Duff,
>
> I need to do a ton of testing with this one...I can see where documents
> that are like books in terms of layout and structure may be okay, but then
> if one has a complex PDF with tables, images spanning, oh boy....
>
> I also see that Daisy and ePub are looking at collaborating (started at the
> beginning of 2014), now that is cool! Would like to see the result of
> that...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa

From: Alastair Campbell
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 3:47AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Duff Johnson wrote:

> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>

I'm fairly sure that is not the case, although it depends on how you author
it, and how you read it.

I've authored all of one epub so far [1], and I started by creating a basic
HTML website, with headings, paragraphs, images, links, and tables. The
core format is based on XHTML, with many peculiarities. Once I'd packaged
an epub, I used Calibre to finish it and create a .mobi version.

I think some of the confusion comes from the tools, which vary in how they
deal with things. For example, InDesign would (I assume) lead you to a more
page-oriented approach, and iBooks author definitely does. InDesign allows
for structure, iBooks author doesn't even do headings as far as I can tell.

On the client side, I found some annoying differences between iBooks and
Kindle apps, where iBooks skips alt text, and Kindle doesn't announce
headings. Something I did in the CSS that works fine for websites seemed to
fix the textsize in iBooks (but not Kindle).

The core format (XHTML) obviously supports the basics, but the current
user-agent support is all over the place, just from a bit of testing.

The accessible epub book someone mentioned was helpful, but it was the
basic "how do you package an epub" that is really fiddly. Calibre is very
helpful if you've taken the hand-coding approach.

Cheers,

-Alastair

1] http://www.nomensa.com/insights/improving-travel-website-accessibility

From: L Snider
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 7:13AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Olaf,

Yes, I may not be able to use it for all documents. I can see its best use
is with book like documents. Some will fit nicely into it, and others won't!

I need to do a ton of testing!

I am still mad at Apple and Adobe. There is no reason in 2014 that an
accessible PDF should be a problem, we have come so far and yet we take 4
steps back...I just don't get it.

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Olaf Drümmer < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Please keep in mind that the original idea had been to make EPUB
> completely page-free, with content flowing as needed. Where a page oriented
> viewer is used pagination would happen in an ad hoc manner, controlled by
> the viewer, and its configuration through the user. [If you can't think
> right away of a not page oriented viewer, think of a text to speech
> presentation of the book content in an audio-book like fashion.]
>
> Those promoting this 'page-free' concept were probably surprised by the
> fact that the world isn't ready yet to say good bye to the concept of
> pages, even not for electronic publication content (I agree with Duff that
> EPUB is probably not a suitable carrier for documents in general). Thus
> page-related features are creeping in from all sides. The concept of page
> numbers had to be introduced, and one of the most favourite recently added
> features is … fixed layout (as in: each page has its own spatial
> arrangement of content items). So much about theory and practice of
> 'page-free'.
>
> Olaf
>
>
> On 3 Dec 2014, at 19:25, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>
> > I don't believe this is the case, at least not with EPUB 3. The
> > IDPF accessibility guidelines for EPUB 3 specifically talk about
> > putting how to add page numbers in page-spinning lists, for
> > example:
> >
> >
> http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/guidelines/content/xhtml/pagenum.php#xhtm020-faq04
> >
> > Deborah Kaplan
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Duff Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> Lisa,
> >>
> >>>> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike
> PDF,
> >>>> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
> >>>> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
> >>> research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as
> they
> >>> wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
> >>> paragraphs)…
> >>
> >> Why would books (or other publications) not include content that spans
> pages?
> >>
> >> How else would books accommodate long (or wide) tables, lists, etc?
> >>
> >> And indeed… how does EPUB handle the situation where a long paragraph
> breaks between pages, often in the middle of a sentence?
> >>
> >> I would suggest caution in adopting a format that could not - in
> principle - accommodate such content (if that’s the case).
> >>
> >>> and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
> >>> anything you can think of...
> >>
> >> As you correctly noted, EPUB is designed for publications. It’s not
> really a general-purpose electronic document format.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the link, Deborah. Does the book include answers to
> questions about content that spans pages?
> >>
> >> Duff.
> >> > >> > >> > >>
> >>
> >
> > -- > > > > >
> > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 7:16AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Duff,

It should be interesting to see what I find. I am also looking at Daisy
too, but with Daisy and ePub looking to try and merge that complicates
things-or maybe it really helps me!

Oh, I didn't know that about PDF 2.0...good to know. So that would mean
that the Daisy tags could be used for Iphone, Android and Mac users...hmmm
that I like...

How about PDF/A or UA? I know you know about those things...I usually use
PDF/A but have been testing PDF/UA as well. Any information you can provide
about those is hugely appreciated!

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Duff Johnson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi Lisa,
>
> Leaving aside tables, etc, results may depend on the question of
> fixed-page EPUB or not. And as Olaf pointed out, it turns out that people
> like fixed-page EPUB in many cases. In these cases they will be dealing
> with how paragraphs and other content break between pages. There’s no
> avoiding it.
>
> Back to the best-practice question: I guess EPUB-oriented publishing tools
> would include this limitation naturally, and simply not make it possible to
> author the types of content I’m referring to.
>
> I look forward to hearing the results of your testing!
>
> FWIW, PDF 2.0 will provide for comprehensive mapping of DAISY tags to PDF
> structure elements - including for such bugbears as page numbers.
>
> Duff.
>
> On Dec 3, 2014, at 12:58, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hi Duff,
> >
> > I need to do a ton of testing with this one...I can see where documents
> > that are like books in terms of layout and structure may be okay, but
> then
> > if one has a complex PDF with tables, images spanning, oh boy....
> >
> > I also see that Daisy and ePub are looking at collaborating (started at
> the
> > beginning of 2014), now that is cool! Would like to see the result of
> > that...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Lisa
>
> > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 7:28AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Alastair,

Thanks! The problem here is I am not starting with HTML, which from what I
read and hear makes things more complex. I can see that (X)HTML>ePub would
work quite well.

Calibre looks great, it seems to do a lot. However, it only does ePub 2.0
(and won't touch 3.0+ unless someone else does it and submits it)...My
understanding is that ePub 3.0 is more accessible?

Thanks for sharing those experiences, appreciate it!

Cheers

Lisa

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 4:47 AM, Alastair Campbell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Duff Johnson wrote:
>
> > Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
> > EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
> > associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
> >
>
> I'm fairly sure that is not the case, although it depends on how you author
> it, and how you read it.
>
> I've authored all of one epub so far [1], and I started by creating a basic
> HTML website, with headings, paragraphs, images, links, and tables. The
> core format is based on XHTML, with many peculiarities. Once I'd packaged
> an epub, I used Calibre to finish it and create a .mobi version.
>
> I think some of the confusion comes from the tools, which vary in how they
> deal with things. For example, InDesign would (I assume) lead you to a more
> page-oriented approach, and iBooks author definitely does. InDesign allows
> for structure, iBooks author doesn't even do headings as far as I can tell.
>
> On the client side, I found some annoying differences between iBooks and
> Kindle apps, where iBooks skips alt text, and Kindle doesn't announce
> headings. Something I did in the CSS that works fine for websites seemed to
> fix the textsize in iBooks (but not Kindle).
>
> The core format (XHTML) obviously supports the basics, but the current
> user-agent support is all over the place, just from a bit of testing.
>
> The accessible epub book someone mentioned was helpful, but it was the
> basic "how do you package an epub" that is really fiddly. Calibre is very
> helpful if you've taken the hand-coding approach.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
>
> 1] http://www.nomensa.com/insights/improving-travel-website-accessibility
> > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 7:28AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Deborah,

Thanks for sharing that, very useful!

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 12:25 PM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I don't believe this is the case, at least not with EPUB 3. The
> IDPF accessibility guidelines for EPUB 3 specifically talk about
> putting how to add page numbers in page-spinning lists, for
> example:
>
> http://www.idpf.org/accessibility/guidelines/content/xhtml/pagenum.php#
> xhtm020-faq04
>
> Deborah Kaplan
>
>
> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, Duff Johnson wrote:
>
> Lisa,
>>
>> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike PDF,
>>>> EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means of
>>>> associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I would love to know, because I have found that to be unclear in the
>>> research I have done so far. Books are the best material for ePubs, as
>>> they
>>> wouldn't have spanning things except text (although that falls under
>>> paragraphs)…
>>>
>>
>> Why would books (or other publications) not include content that spans
>> pages?
>>
>> How else would books accommodate long (or wide) tables, lists, etc?
>>
>> And indeed… how does EPUB handle the situation where a long paragraph
>> breaks between pages, often in the middle of a sentence?
>>
>> I would suggest caution in adopting a format that could not - in
>> principle - accommodate such content (if that’s the case).
>>
>> and I am hoping to use ePub on all sorts of documents,
>>> anything you can think of...
>>>
>>
>> As you correctly noted, EPUB is designed for publications. It’s not
>> really a general-purpose electronic document format.
>>
>> Thanks for the link, Deborah. Does the book include answers to questions
>> about content that spans pages?
>>
>> Duff.
>> >> >> >>
>>
>>
> --
> > > >
>

From: Andrews, David B (DEED)
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 8:35AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

There is currently a project going on to evaluate ePub 3 reading systems, software and devices. It is jointly sponsored by the DAISY Consortium and the "Book Industry Study Group." There are accessibility tests included -- and we are currently looking for volunteers to conduct additional accessibility testing.

The results so far are at: http://www.epubtest.org

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alastair Campbell
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 4:47 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] EPUB-Experiences making them?

Duff Johnson wrote:

> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike
> PDF, EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means
> of associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>

I'm fairly sure that is not the case, although it depends on how you author it, and how you read it.

I've authored all of one epub so far [1], and I started by creating a basic HTML website, with headings, paragraphs, images, links, and tables. The core format is based on XHTML, with many peculiarities. Once I'd packaged an epub, I used Calibre to finish it and create a .mobi version.

I think some of the confusion comes from the tools, which vary in how they deal with things. For example, InDesign would (I assume) lead you to a more page-oriented approach, and iBooks author definitely does. InDesign allows for structure, iBooks author doesn't even do headings as far as I can tell.

On the client side, I found some annoying differences between iBooks and Kindle apps, where iBooks skips alt text, and Kindle doesn't announce headings. Something I did in the CSS that works fine for websites seemed to fix the textsize in iBooks (but not Kindle).

The core format (XHTML) obviously supports the basics, but the current user-agent support is all over the place, just from a bit of testing.

The accessible epub book someone mentioned was helpful, but it was the basic "how do you package an epub" that is really fiddly. Calibre is very helpful if you've taken the hand-coding approach.

Cheers,

-Alastair

1] http://www.nomensa.com/insights/improving-travel-website-accessibility

From: Liko, Todd
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 9:07AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for the link.

In our preliminary research and testing, we found that ePub3 reading systems, software and devices were all over the place and not really ready for ePub3.

Todd.

-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andrews, David B (DEED)
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:35 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] EPUB-Experiences making them?

There is currently a project going on to evaluate ePub 3 reading systems, software and devices. It is jointly sponsored by the DAISY Consortium and the "Book Industry Study Group." There are accessibility tests included -- and we are currently looking for volunteers to conduct additional accessibility testing.

The results so far are at: http://www.epubtest.org

Dave


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alastair Campbell
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 4:47 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] EPUB-Experiences making them?

Duff Johnson wrote:

> Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike
> PDF, EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means
> of associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
>

I'm fairly sure that is not the case, although it depends on how you author it, and how you read it.

I've authored all of one epub so far [1], and I started by creating a basic HTML website, with headings, paragraphs, images, links, and tables. The core format is based on XHTML, with many peculiarities. Once I'd packaged an epub, I used Calibre to finish it and create a .mobi version.

I think some of the confusion comes from the tools, which vary in how they deal with things. For example, InDesign would (I assume) lead you to a more page-oriented approach, and iBooks author definitely does. InDesign allows for structure, iBooks author doesn't even do headings as far as I can tell.

On the client side, I found some annoying differences between iBooks and Kindle apps, where iBooks skips alt text, and Kindle doesn't announce headings. Something I did in the CSS that works fine for websites seemed to fix the textsize in iBooks (but not Kindle).

The core format (XHTML) obviously supports the basics, but the current user-agent support is all over the place, just from a bit of testing.

The accessible epub book someone mentioned was helpful, but it was the basic "how do you package an epub" that is really fiddly. Calibre is very helpful if you've taken the hand-coding approach.

Cheers,

-Alastair

1] http://www.nomensa.com/insights/improving-travel-website-accessibility

From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Fri, Dec 05 2014 11:02AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello:

I've not been following this thread closely, but I'll post this link,
in case some interested in ebooks may be unaware of it.
http://epubtest.org/

Note that the last column relates to accessibility.

And the community could always use testers, I expect.

George Kerscher requested that I post a message here, on his behalf,
and people may follow up with him if they have questions about epub
or DAISY since George works both with the IDPF and the DAISY
Consortium. Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

I'll also add that ibooks and Moby aren't, as far as I know, vanilla
epub. They're variants of it, or at least ibooks is. Everybody's
gotta do their own thing (though I sure sometimes wish they
wouldn't). So, it's not always user agents that are "all over the place."

Best,
Jennifer

From: L Snider
Date: Mon, Dec 08 2014 6:18AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi David,

Thanks so much for the link. Glad this work is being done!

Cheers

Lisa

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Andrews, David B (DEED) <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> There is currently a project going on to evaluate ePub 3 reading systems,
> software and devices. It is jointly sponsored by the DAISY Consortium and
> the "Book Industry Study Group." There are accessibility tests included --
> and we are currently looking for volunteers to conduct additional
> accessibility testing.
>
> The results so far are at: http://www.epubtest.org
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alastair Campbell
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 4:47 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] EPUB-Experiences making them?
>
> Duff Johnson wrote:
>
> > Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike
> > PDF, EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means
> > of associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
> >
>
> I'm fairly sure that is not the case, although it depends on how you
> author it, and how you read it.
>
> I've authored all of one epub so far [1], and I started by creating a
> basic HTML website, with headings, paragraphs, images, links, and tables.
> The core format is based on XHTML, with many peculiarities. Once I'd
> packaged an epub, I used Calibre to finish it and create a .mobi version.
>
> I think some of the confusion comes from the tools, which vary in how they
> deal with things. For example, InDesign would (I assume) lead you to a more
> page-oriented approach, and iBooks author definitely does. InDesign allows
> for structure, iBooks author doesn't even do headings as far as I can tell.
>
> On the client side, I found some annoying differences between iBooks and
> Kindle apps, where iBooks skips alt text, and Kindle doesn't announce
> headings. Something I did in the CSS that works fine for websites seemed to
> fix the textsize in iBooks (but not Kindle).
>
> The core format (XHTML) obviously supports the basics, but the current
> user-agent support is all over the place, just from a bit of testing.
>
> The accessible epub book someone mentioned was helpful, but it was the
> basic "how do you package an epub" that is really fiddly. Calibre is very
> helpful if you've taken the hand-coding approach.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
>
> 1] http://www.nomensa.com/insights/improving-travel-website-accessibility
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Mon, Dec 08 2014 6:20AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Todd,

Good to know! That was my sense, that everyone had fully bought in to ePub
2 but that wasn't the case in terms of 3. In my research, I sensed that
people were looking at 3, but were not committing. Not sure if that was
just the normal 'let's wait and see' approach when new things come out or
something different?

Cheers

Lisa

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Liko, Todd < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Thank you for the link.
>
> In our preliminary research and testing, we found that ePub3 reading
> systems, software and devices were all over the place and not really ready
> for ePub3.
>
> Todd.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andrews, David B (DEED)
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:35 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] EPUB-Experiences making them?
>
> There is currently a project going on to evaluate ePub 3 reading systems,
> software and devices. It is jointly sponsored by the DAISY Consortium and
> the "Book Industry Study Group." There are accessibility tests included --
> and we are currently looking for volunteers to conduct additional
> accessibility testing.
>
> The results so far are at: http://www.epubtest.org
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Alastair Campbell
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 4:47 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] EPUB-Experiences making them?
>
> Duff Johnson wrote:
>
> > Don’t author tables, lists, paragraphs, etc that span pages. Unlike
> > PDF, EPUB has (so far as I am aware, happy to be corrected) no means
> > of associating semantic structures that span multiple pages.
> >
>
> I'm fairly sure that is not the case, although it depends on how you
> author it, and how you read it.
>
> I've authored all of one epub so far [1], and I started by creating a
> basic HTML website, with headings, paragraphs, images, links, and tables.
> The core format is based on XHTML, with many peculiarities. Once I'd
> packaged an epub, I used Calibre to finish it and create a .mobi version.
>
> I think some of the confusion comes from the tools, which vary in how they
> deal with things. For example, InDesign would (I assume) lead you to a more
> page-oriented approach, and iBooks author definitely does. InDesign allows
> for structure, iBooks author doesn't even do headings as far as I can tell.
>
> On the client side, I found some annoying differences between iBooks and
> Kindle apps, where iBooks skips alt text, and Kindle doesn't announce
> headings. Something I did in the CSS that works fine for websites seemed to
> fix the textsize in iBooks (but not Kindle).
>
> The core format (XHTML) obviously supports the basics, but the current
> user-agent support is all over the place, just from a bit of testing.
>
> The accessible epub book someone mentioned was helpful, but it was the
> basic "how do you package an epub" that is really fiddly. Calibre is very
> helpful if you've taken the hand-coding approach.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Alastair
>
> 1] http://www.nomensa.com/insights/improving-travel-website-accessibility
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Mon, Dec 08 2014 6:22AM
Subject: Re: EPUB-Experiences making them?
← Previous message | No next message

HI Jennifer,

Thanks for sending George's email. I will definitely contact him.

A tangled web of players and formats...reminds me of born digital video in
the early 2000s-a bit of a mess, but one that will resolve at some point-I
hope???

Cheers

Lisa

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hello:
>
> I've not been following this thread closely, but I'll post this link, in
> case some interested in ebooks may be unaware of it.
> http://epubtest.org/
>
> Note that the last column relates to accessibility.
>
> And the community could always use testers, I expect.
>
> George Kerscher requested that I post a message here, on his behalf, and
> people may follow up with him if they have questions about epub or DAISY
> since George works both with the IDPF and the DAISY Consortium. Email:
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> I'll also add that ibooks and Moby aren't, as far as I know, vanilla
> epub. They're variants of it, or at least ibooks is. Everybody's gotta do
> their own thing (though I sure sometimes wish they wouldn't). So, it's not
> always user agents that are "all over the place."
>
> Best,
> Jennifer
>
>
> > > >