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Thread: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

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Number of posts in this thread: 17 (In chronological order)

From: Mike Warner
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 2:30PM
Subject: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
No previous message | Next message →

Hi again,

as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:

Individual words in another language that could be understood incorrectly
or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.

What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We don't use
many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words all have
accessible glossary spans next to them.

Thanks,
Mike

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 2:39PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in MerriamWebster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

You don't need to use a lang attribute on words that have been adopted/appropriated by the native language of the page. Thus for an English page with the <html lang="en"> designation you would not want to have <span lang="fr">resumé</span>. To do so would probably cause the screen reader to pronounce it in a manner that was unintelligible to a native English speaker.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Mike Warner
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 3:31 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Hi again,

as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:

Individual words in another language that could be understood incorrectly or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.

What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We don't use many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words all have accessible glossary spans next to them.

Thanks,
Mike

From: John Foliot
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 2:49PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Personally, I'd still mark up the foreign language if you know the root.
For example, if I mark up <span lang="fr">croissant</span>, then most
screen readers will switch language packs and announce the word more
closely aligned with what you are used to hearing. (Craw-sont, as opposed
to Croy-Sant) At that point it may seem like more user-experience rather
than accessibility compliance, but why not shoot for both? :-)

(I have observed - anecdotally - that many common english words with
obvious roots in another language are increasingly getting support from
screen readers, so that terms such as deja-vu generally don't need language
markup. The key then is words that "could be understood incorrectly or not
at all", a much smaller list.)

JF

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Mike Warner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood incorrectly
> or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We don't use
> many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words all have
> accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > > >



--
John Foliot
Principle Accessibility Consultant
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: John Foliot
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 2:53PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Actually Mike, I disagree with your example: <span lang="fr">resumé</span>
would enunciate better as the lang markup would apply the correct
inflection on the é (&eqacute;).

The bigger question however is, for a term like that, is the lang markup
required, and I believe we are both agreeing that the answer is no; not
*required* (however I still encourage it when possible).

JF

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Moore,Michael (DARS) <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> You don't need to use a lang attribute on words that have been
> adopted/appropriated by the native language of the page. Thus for an
> English page with the <html lang="en"> designation you would not want to
> have <span lang="fr">resumé</span>. To do so would probably cause the
> screen reader to pronounce it in a manner that was unintelligible to a
> native English speaker.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator,
> Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Mike Warner
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 3:31 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam
> Webster's dictionary?
>
> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood incorrectly
> or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We don't
> use many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words all have
> accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >



--
John Foliot
Principle Accessibility Consultant
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 3:01PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Not in my experience with JFW anyway. But 3.1.2 is fairly clear <<>> added for emphasis.

Language of Parts:

3.1.2 The human language of each passage or phrase in the content can be programmatically determined except for proper names, technical terms, words of indeterminate language, and <<words or phrases that have become part of the vernacular of the immediately surrounding text>>.

The good thing is that most screen readers have a dictionary that allows a user to customize the way that the screen reader mangles a given word so I have adjusted my dictionary to pronounce your last name and resumé correctly and pronounce "You all" as "yall" since I am in Texas. <grin/>

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
(512) 424-4159 (Office)
(512) 574-0091 (Cell)


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of John Foliot
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 3:53 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Actually Mike, I disagree with your example: <span lang="fr">resumé</span> would enunciate better as the lang markup would apply the correct inflection on the é (&eqacute;).

The bigger question however is, for a term like that, is the lang markup required, and I believe we are both agreeing that the answer is no; not
*required* (however I still encourage it when possible).

JF

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Moore,Michael (DARS) < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> You don't need to use a lang attribute on words that have been
> adopted/appropriated by the native language of the page. Thus for an
> English page with the <html lang="en"> designation you would not want
> to have <span lang="fr">resumé</span>. To do so would probably cause
> the screen reader to pronounce it in a manner that was unintelligible
> to a native English speaker.
>
> Mike Moore
> Accessibility Coordinator,
> Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Mike Warner
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 3:31 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam
> Webster's dictionary?
>
> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood
> incorrectly or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We
> don't use many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words
> all have accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >



--
John Foliot
Principle Accessibility Consultant
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 3:21PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Mike, I'll let the grammarians and usage nuts knock themselves out determining when a borrowed phrase becomes part of the language that borrows it.

From the standpoint of accessibility, there are two reasons for tagging a phrase with its human language:
• To help the software know which dictionary to use for spellchecking and, if requested, definitions.
• To determined which pronunciation rules should be used.

Often borrowed phrases lose both. So the best reference for pronunciation will be the same resource used for the rest of the page.

But if the reader should hear the phrase pronounced according to the rules of its own language, then you'll want to wrap the phrase in the tags for that language.

The point is, people who are listening to screen readers should hear the phrase pronounced in a familiar way. If the term is from French and always pronounced as in French, then wrap it in tags that identify it as French.

But, as is usually the case for many procedural terms used by our Texas Legislature, it might have come from Latin but you'd never be able to tell it by the way it's pronounced. To have any chance for the screen reader to produce the familiar sound, you'd have to leave those marked up as English.

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Mike Warner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood incorrectly
> or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We don't use
> many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words all have
> accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > >

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 3:35PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Well, John, if you ever want a croy-sant here in Texas, you'd better learn how to ask for it! <grin />

CT

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:49 PM, John Foliot < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Personally, I'd still mark up the foreign language if you know the root.
> For example, if I mark up <span lang="fr">croissant</span>, then most
> screen readers will switch language packs and announce the word more
> closely aligned with what you are used to hearing. (Craw-sont, as opposed
> to Croy-Sant) At that point it may seem like more user-experience rather
> than accessibility compliance, but why not shoot for both? :-)
>
> (I have observed - anecdotally - that many common english words with
> obvious roots in another language are increasingly getting support from
> screen readers, so that terms such as deja-vu generally don't need language
> markup. The key then is words that "could be understood incorrectly or not
> at all", a much smaller list.)
>
> JF
>
>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Mike Warner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>>
>> Individual words in another language that could be understood incorrectly
>> or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>>
>> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We don't use
>> many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words all have
>> accessible glossary spans next to them.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mike
>> >> >> >> >
>
>
> --
> John Foliot
> Principle Accessibility Consultant
> Deque Systems Inc.
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
> > > >

From: chaals@yandex-team.ru
Date: Tue, Apr 21 2015 6:04PM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

- ct612x@

21.04.2015, 23:36, "Cliff Tyllick" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >:
> Well, John, if you ever want a croy-sant here in Texas, you'd better learn how to ask for it! <grin />

I wouldn't mark up croissant, ennui, realpolitik or zeitgeist, but I would mark up "joie de vivre". I'd wonder about machtpolitik - and probably ask someone to check it so I could decide. Or maybe I'd take the hint that my spellcheck didn't flag them and assume there's a reasonable chance they'll be fine, unless I'm really concerned.

On the other hand, to write accessibly unless I had a specific reason for using obscure words I would avoid them in the first place…

cheers

Chaals

(Cliff wrote:
> Sent from my iPhone
> Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

Yes, that is the case for all dumb ideas my mail client allowed into my mail messages ;) )

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 7:29AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in MerriamWebster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use a screen reader you get used to the way it butchers certain words so when we cleverly trick the screen reader into pronouncing something correctly we are delivering unexpected behavior.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
(512) 424-4159 (Office)
(512) 574-0091 (Cell)


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cliff Tyllick
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 4:22 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Mike, I'll let the grammarians and usage nuts knock themselves out determining when a borrowed phrase becomes part of the language that borrows it.

From the standpoint of accessibility, there are two reasons for tagging a phrase with its human language:
• To help the software know which dictionary to use for spellchecking and, if requested, definitions.
• To determined which pronunciation rules should be used.

Often borrowed phrases lose both. So the best reference for pronunciation will be the same resource used for the rest of the page.

But if the reader should hear the phrase pronounced according to the rules of its own language, then you'll want to wrap the phrase in the tags for that language.

The point is, people who are listening to screen readers should hear the phrase pronounced in a familiar way. If the term is from French and always pronounced as in French, then wrap it in tags that identify it as French.

But, as is usually the case for many procedural terms used by our Texas Legislature, it might have come from Latin but you'd never be able to tell it by the way it's pronounced. To have any chance for the screen reader to produce the familiar sound, you'd have to leave those marked up as English.

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Mike Warner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood
> incorrectly or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We
> don't use many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words
> all have accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Moore,Michael (DARS)
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 7:31AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found inMerriamWebster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

A final thought, you have to have the language installed on the screen reader for it to know how to pronounce the words in the provided language.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
(512) 424-4159 (Office)
(512) 574-0091 (Cell)


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael (DARS)
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 8:30 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use a screen reader you get used to the way it butchers certain words so when we cleverly trick the screen reader into pronouncing something correctly we are delivering unexpected behavior.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
(512) 424-4159 (Office)
(512) 574-0091 (Cell)


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cliff Tyllick
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 4:22 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Mike, I'll let the grammarians and usage nuts knock themselves out determining when a borrowed phrase becomes part of the language that borrows it.

From the standpoint of accessibility, there are two reasons for tagging a phrase with its human language:
• To help the software know which dictionary to use for spellchecking and, if requested, definitions.
• To determined which pronunciation rules should be used.

Often borrowed phrases lose both. So the best reference for pronunciation will be the same resource used for the rest of the page.

But if the reader should hear the phrase pronounced according to the rules of its own language, then you'll want to wrap the phrase in the tags for that language.

The point is, people who are listening to screen readers should hear the phrase pronounced in a familiar way. If the term is from French and always pronounced as in French, then wrap it in tags that identify it as French.

But, as is usually the case for many procedural terms used by our Texas Legislature, it might have come from Latin but you'd never be able to tell it by the way it's pronounced. To have any chance for the screen reader to produce the familiar sound, you'd have to leave those marked up as English.

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Mike Warner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood
> incorrectly or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We
> don't use many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words
> all have accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 7:33AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in MerriamWebster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

On 22/04/2015 14:29, Moore,Michael (DARS) wrote:
> Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use a screen reader you get used to the way it butchers certain words so when we cleverly trick the screen reader into pronouncing something correctly we are delivering unexpected behavior.

Insert joke here about the inability of most English/American speakers
to pronounce "niche" correctly ("neesh" instead of "nitch")...

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 7:59AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

While in Texas, order biscuits, none of that French/Canadian French
fancy pants stuff (.. the exception being, of course, if having
breakfast with Denis Boudreau(. ;)

I have had to turn language detection off in my screen readers
actually, because I frequently receive emails from my colleagues in
the European Blind Union technology working groups. These emails are
written in English but composed using their mail client with its
default regional/language setting.
So usually I get email written in English with language tags set to
French, Spanish or German.
My screen reader bravely starts reading it, but it is completely unintelligible.
I have mastered the art of using an English screen reader to read
Icelandic text (I prefer it, even if Icelandic has some quality TTS
choices), but that took years of practice.




On 4/22/15, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On 22/04/2015 14:29, Moore,Michael (DARS) wrote:
>> Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use a screen reader you get
>> used to the way it butchers certain words so when we cleverly trick the
>> screen reader into pronouncing something correctly we are delivering
>> unexpected behavior.
>
> Insert joke here about the inability of most English/American speakers
> to pronounce "niche" correctly ("neesh" instead of "nitch")...
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 8:10AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Birkir,

Thanks so much for mentioning that with the emails, I never would have
thought about it!

So how could one solve that issue of an English text that is made with a
French default regional/language setting?

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> While in Texas, order biscuits, none of that French/Canadian French
> fancy pants stuff (.. the exception being, of course, if having
> breakfast with Denis Boudreau(. ;)
>
> I have had to turn language detection off in my screen readers
> actually, because I frequently receive emails from my colleagues in
> the European Blind Union technology working groups. These emails are
> written in English but composed using their mail client with its
> default regional/language setting.
> So usually I get email written in English with language tags set to
> French, Spanish or German.
> My screen reader bravely starts reading it, but it is completely
> unintelligible.
> I have mastered the art of using an English screen reader to read
> Icelandic text (I prefer it, even if Icelandic has some quality TTS
> choices), but that took years of practice.
>
>
>
>
> On 4/22/15, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > On 22/04/2015 14:29, Moore,Michael (DARS) wrote:
> >> Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use a screen reader you
> get
> >> used to the way it butchers certain words so when we cleverly trick the
> >> screen reader into pronouncing something correctly we are delivering
> >> unexpected behavior.
> >
> > Insert joke here about the inability of most English/American speakers
> > to pronounce "niche" correctly ("neesh" instead of "nitch")...
> >
> > P
> > --
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> > www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> > http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> > twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > >

From: Cliff Tyllick
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 8:12AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

> On Apr 22, 2015, at 8:33 AM, Patrick H. Lauke < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Insert joke here about the inability of most English/American speakers to pronounce "niche" correctly ("neesh" instead of "nitch")...
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> ________________

"Neesh"?!?

Jiche!!!

LOL

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

From: John Foliot
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 9:04AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

All,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the idea that perpetuating the poor pronunciation of words - words that could be enunciated properly by simply using HTML the way it was designed to be used, and leveraging the ability of screen readers to switch language packs on the fly - no, I have to disagree that this is a good idea, let alone a best practice. I believe we can and should do better.

While I may not be a daily screen reader user, and my screen reader(s) are not personally fine-tuned or modified beyond default installation, none-the-less it is my experience that most screen readers ship by default with multiple language packs. Eloquence for JAWS Languages include: American English, British English, Castilian Spanish, Latin American Spanish, French, French Canadian, German, Italian, Brazilian Portuguese, and Finnish; NVDA with eSpeak supports over 30 languages (http://espeak.sourceforge.net/languages.html), while VoiceOver ships with support for 24 languages (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201917) and so for those languages at least, using @lang markup will see the benefits of on-the-fly language switching. Further, even if the end user does not have a specific language pack installed, at least Jaws will deal with the issues proactively:
"If JAWS or MAGic only said, Russian, Greek, or Polish, instead of reading the text in those languages, this indicates that your speech synthesizer does not support those languages. Even so, JAWS and MAGic indicate the language being used."
- http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/Languages.htm

My friend Chaals "... wouldn't mark up croissant, ennui, realpolitik or zeitgeist, but would mark up "joie de vivre"..." without further explanation as to his criteria for deciding which was or wasn't marked up (is it the difference between a word and a phrase? What about mañana? Is saying Man-ana - rhymes with banana - really the best user-experience we can deliver?), however personally, I see no harm, and some potential benefit in marking-up all foreign languages in my HTML documents as best as possible.

But not doing something, so-as to perpetuate a broken but familiar outcome, no, I can't accept that - sorry.

JF
​--
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Consultant
Deque Systems Inc.
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion




-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael (DARS)
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 6:32 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

A final thought, you have to have the language installed on the screen reader for it to know how to pronounce the words in the provided language.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
(512) 424-4159 (Office)
(512) 574-0091 (Cell)


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael (DARS)
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 8:30 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Another thing to keep in mind is that when you use a screen reader you get used to the way it butchers certain words so when we cleverly trick the screen reader into pronouncing something correctly we are delivering unexpected behavior.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator,
Texas Department of Assistive and Rehabilitative Services
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Cliff Tyllick
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 4:22 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?

Mike, I'll let the grammarians and usage nuts knock themselves out determining when a borrowed phrase becomes part of the language that borrows it.

From the standpoint of accessibility, there are two reasons for tagging a phrase with its human language:
• To help the software know which dictionary to use for spellchecking and, if requested, definitions.
• To determined which pronunciation rules should be used.

Often borrowed phrases lose both. So the best reference for pronunciation will be the same resource used for the rest of the page.

But if the reader should hear the phrase pronounced according to the rules of its own language, then you'll want to wrap the phrase in the tags for that language.

The point is, people who are listening to screen readers should hear the phrase pronounced in a familiar way. If the term is from French and always pronounced as in French, then wrap it in tags that identify it as French.

But, as is usually the case for many procedural terms used by our Texas Legislature, it might have come from Latin but you'd never be able to tell it by the way it's pronounced. To have any chance for the screen reader to produce the familiar sound, you'd have to leave those marked up as English.

Cliff Tyllick

Sent from my iPhone
Although its spellcheck often saves me, all goofs in sent messages are its fault.

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:30 PM, Mike Warner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hi again,
>
> as I'm going though the WCAG Checklist, I saw this:
>
> Individual words in another language that could be understood
> incorrectly or not at all are marked up using the lang attribute.
>
> What if the foreign words are in common English dictionaries? We
> don't use many, mainly in our art and culture courses, and the words
> all have accessible glossary spans next to them.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Mike Warner
Date: Wed, Apr 22 2015 9:55AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, everyone. It was very interesting, and sometimes funny, to read
your responses. As a former translator of a few languages, I prefer to
hear the word as pronounced by native speakers. I'm the exception to the
norm for that here in the US, though. I can understand the logic behind
letting the screen reader butcher the word, and used that during my
briefing to the CEO this morning.

Thanks again, all!

Sincerely,
Mike

From: _mallory
Date: Thu, Apr 23 2015 12:25AM
Subject: Re: lang attribute for foreign words found in Merriam Webster's dictionary?
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If for example en_USer's pronounce foreign-but-adopted words
differently than how the native speaker would, I would
explicitly avoid adding the language markup, if it's likely
the host language speaker would not recognise the correct
pronounciation of the word.

Then again, maybe adding the lang attributes would count as
a "learning opportunity". My father said to his grave
"horse doovers".

_mallory