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Thread: Captcha images

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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Ella Yu
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 8:42AM
Subject: Captcha images
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Hi all,
I am concerned about a major accessibility issue to do with
security captchas. I am fraid this is true with not only braille
notetakers, but I am afraid this also applies to screen readers.
Do you think it is possible to make captchas more accessible?
Thanks in advance,
Ella

From: Jordan Wilson
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 9:59AM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
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Ella,

Making CAPTCHAS more accessible is very difficult as there will almost
always be someone who cannot complete it. There are some Œbetter'
implementations of CAPTCHA available but none that are perfect.Check out
the second link for some details. Unless a site has a serious bot/attack
threat, its usually best to use a non-CAPTCHA alternative.

W3 abstract on the inaccessibility of CAPTCHA and some alternatives:
http://www.w3.org/TR/turingtest/

List of CAPTCHA options and CAPTCHA alternative options:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Captcha_Alternatives_and_thoughts





On 12/1/15, 10:42 AM, "WebAIM-Forum on behalf of Ella Yu"
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = on behalf of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

>Hi all,
>I am concerned about a major accessibility issue to do with
>security captchas. I am fraid this is true with not only braille
>notetakers, but I am afraid this also applies to screen readers.
>Do you think it is possible to make captchas more accessible?
>Thanks in advance,
>Ella
>>>>

From: Ella Yu
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 10:06AM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
← Previous message | Next message →

Yeah,=20but=20I=20think=20if=20the=20captcha=20could=20be=20like=20a=20math=
=20question=20or=20
word=20or=20something=20that=20is=20displayed=20on=20the=20page=20instead=20=
of=20as=20an=20
image,=20maybe=20it'll=20solve=20the=20problem.

=20-----=20Original=20Message=20-----
From:=20Jordan=20Wilson=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To:=20WebAIM=20Discussion=20List=20< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date=20sent:=20Tue,=201=20Dec=202015=2016:59:28=20+0000
Subject:=20Re:=20[WebAIM]=20Captcha=20images

Ella,

Making=20CAPTCHAS=20more=20accessible=20is=20very=20difficult=20as=20there=
=20will=20
almost
always=20be=20someone=20who=20cannot=20complete=20it.=20There=20are=20some=
=20
=C5=92better'
implementations=20of=20CAPTCHA=20available=20but=20none=20that=20are=20
perfect.Check=20out
the=20second=20link=20for=20some=20details.=20Unless=20a=20site=20has=20a=20=
serious=20
bot/attack
threat,=20its=20usually=20best=20to=20use=20a=20non-CAPTCHA=20alternative.

W3=20abstract=20on=20the=20inaccessibility=20of=20CAPTCHA=20and=20some=20
alternatives:
http://www.w3.org/TR/turingtest/

List=20of=20CAPTCHA=20options=20and=20CAPTCHA=20alternative=20options:
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Captcha_Alternatives_and_thoughts





On=2012/1/15,=2010:42=20AM,=20"WebAIM-Forum=20on=20behalf=20of=20Ella=20Yu"=

< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = =20on=20behalf=20of=20
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
wrote:

Hi=20all,
I=20am=20concerned=20about=20a=20major=20accessibility=20issue=20to=20do=20=
with
security=20captchas.=20I=20am=20fraid=20this=20is=20true=20with=20not=20onl=
y=20braille
notetakers,=20but=20I=20am=20afraid=20this=20also=20applies=20to=20screen=20=
readers.
Do=20you=20think=20it=20is=20possible=20to=20make=20captchas=20more=20acces=
sible?
Thanks=20in=20advance,
Ella
To=20manage=20your=20subscription,=20visit=20http://list.webaim.org/
List=20archives=20at=20http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
Address=20list=20messages=20to= = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

To=20manage=20your=20subscription,=20visit=20http://list.webaim.org/
List=20archives=20at=20http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
Address=20list=20messages=20to= = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: rjaquiss
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 12:43PM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
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Hello Ella:

I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"

Regards,

Robert

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 1:39PM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
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On 01/12/2015 19:43, rjaquiss wrote:
> I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
> such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"

Which, depending on context (or lack thereof) may cause issues for
non-native speakers, users with cognitive disabilities, etc.

In many cases, it's best to go back to WHY those CAPTCHAs are being used
and find less intrusive alternatives. Is it to avoid a flood of faked
subscriptions to a service? In that case, maybe limit the number of
allowed subscriptions for a particular IP address/range, add a hidden
(non-focusable and aria-hidden) text field in the form and make sure
that it's not filled in by some bot, etc.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 1:41PM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
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all of these other options you are talking about have been tried. the
problem is blind people are not the only people with disability on the
web. if its a math problem a person that has a math learning disability
will be blocked. and a word game like the logic problem will make it hard
if the person is not a English speaker or has a cognitive disability this
is a long time problem but a lot of people are working on it and maybe one
day we will find a good answer. lucy

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:43 AM, rjaquiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello Ella:
>
> I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
> such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
>
> > > > >



--
Lucia Greco
Web Accessibility Evangelist
IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces

From: Ann Pennington
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 2:00PM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
← Previous message | Next message →

Google’s reCAPTCHA has been updated in a way that is much more accessible than in the past, as discussed in a Google blog post:
https://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2014/12/are-you-robot-introducing-no-captcha.html

And the Simply Accessible team tested the accessibility of the updated noCAPTCHA reCAPTCHA with positive results:
http://simplyaccessible.com/article/googles-no-captcha/

Best regards,
Ann


> On Dec 1, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> all of these other options you are talking about have been tried. the
> problem is blind people are not the only people with disability on the
> web. if its a math problem a person that has a math learning disability
> will be blocked. and a word game like the logic problem will make it hard
> if the person is not a English speaker or has a cognitive disability this
> is a long time problem but a lot of people are working on it and maybe one
> day we will find a good answer. lucy
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:43 AM, rjaquiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> Hello Ella:
>>
>> I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
>> such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > >

From: deborah.kaplan@suberic.net
Date: Tue, Dec 01 2015 2:14PM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
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I have found Google's new reCAPTCHA to be a 100% blocker for me these days. It is almost guaranteed to see Dragon NaturallySpeaking as a bot, which means it is almost guaranteed to give me the image verification screen, which means I am forced into the 100% non-keyboard accessible image verification process. I understand the problem with Dragon NaturallySpeaking being seen as a bot, but not putting keyboard accessibility onto the image verification screen is inexplicable.

It once again comes back to National Park bears and trash cans (a CAPTCHA that most humans can solve is also one a smart bot can solve), returning to the sentiment that the solution is not going to be a smarter CAPTCHA. Not least because a lot of them are getting crowd-source solved for pennies.


Deborah Kaplan




On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Ann Pennington wrote:

> Google’s reCAPTCHA has been updated in a way that is much more accessible than in the past, as discussed in a Google blog post:
> https://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2014/12/are-you-robot-introducing-no-captcha.html
>
> And the Simply Accessible team tested the accessibility of the updated noCAPTCHA reCAPTCHA with positive results:
> http://simplyaccessible.com/article/googles-no-captcha/
>
> Best regards,
> Ann
>
>
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> all of these other options you are talking about have been tried. the
>> problem is blind people are not the only people with disability on the
>> web. if its a math problem a person that has a math learning disability
>> will be blocked. and a word game like the logic problem will make it hard
>> if the person is not a English speaker or has a cognitive disability this
>> is a long time problem but a lot of people are working on it and maybe one
>> day we will find a good answer. lucy
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:43 AM, rjaquiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ella:
>>>
>>> I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
>>> such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>> >> >> >> >
> > > > --

From: _mallory
Date: Wed, Dec 02 2015 5:45AM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
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I don't always have enough fingers and toes to do that math.

My dys-mathia (or whatever) shouldn't mean I'm not human enough
to use a web page.

_mallory

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 09:06:57AM -0800, Ella Yu wrote:
> Yeah, but I think if the captcha could be like a math question or
> word or something that is displayed on the page instead of as an
> image, maybe it'll solve the problem.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jordan Wilson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Date sent: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:59:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Captcha images
>
> Ella,
>
> Making CAPTCHAS more accessible is very difficult as there will
> almost
> always be someone who cannot complete it. There are some ?’better'
> implementations of CAPTCHA available but none that are perfect.Check
> out
> the second link for some details. Unless a site has a serious
> bot/attack
> threat, its usually best to use a non-CAPTCHA alternative.
>
> W3 abstract on the inaccessibility of CAPTCHA and some alternatives:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/turingtest/
>
> List of CAPTCHA options and CAPTCHA alternative options:
> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Captcha_Alternatives_and_thoughts
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/1/15, 10:42 AM, "WebAIM-Forum on behalf of Ella Yu"
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = on behalf of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I am concerned about a major accessibility issue to do with
> security captchas. I am fraid this is true with not only braille
> notetakers, but I am afraid this also applies to screen readers.
> Do you think it is possible to make captchas more accessible?
> Thanks in advance,
> Ella
> > > > >
> > > > >

> > > >

From: _mallory
Date: Wed, Dec 02 2015 5:47AM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
← Previous message | Next message →

The true problem with CAPTCHA is that it thinks it's trying to tell
a human from a computer.

However, not only does it do this badly, but it's not even what we
as webmasters even want. We don't care if a user is human. It's not
even our right to ask. We care if a user is legitimate. Sometimes a
script is a totally legitimate user (like a Google crawler). Often
a human spammer is not.

I so hate CAPTCHA, mostly because I feel it's mis-appropriated to solve
the wrong problem.


_mallory

On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 12:41:20PM -0800, Lucy Greco wrote:
> all of these other options you are talking about have been tried. the
> problem is blind people are not the only people with disability on the
> web. if its a math problem a person that has a math learning disability
> will be blocked. and a word game like the logic problem will make it hard
> if the person is not a English speaker or has a cognitive disability this
> is a long time problem but a lot of people are working on it and maybe one
> day we will find a good answer. lucy
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:43 AM, rjaquiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello Ella:
> >
> > I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
> > such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> --
> Lucia Greco
> Web Accessibility Evangelist
> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
> > > >

From: Nancy Johnson
Date: Wed, Dec 02 2015 6:49AM
Subject: Re: Captcha images
← Previous message | No next message

On our products, so far, I have been able to use the older version of
reCaptcha which far from perfect, does seem to have some minimal
accessibility.

However, if these older versions should ever pose a security risk or
have other back-end issues, then I will have to upgrade to the current
version.

At one point I did add the accessibility issue to Google's bug list.

Nancy

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 7:47 AM, _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> The true problem with CAPTCHA is that it thinks it's trying to tell
> a human from a computer.
>
> However, not only does it do this badly, but it's not even what we
> as webmasters even want. We don't care if a user is human. It's not
> even our right to ask. We care if a user is legitimate. Sometimes a
> script is a totally legitimate user (like a Google crawler). Often
> a human spammer is not.
>
> I so hate CAPTCHA, mostly because I feel it's mis-appropriated to solve
> the wrong problem.
>
>
> _mallory
>
> On Tue, Dec 01, 2015 at 12:41:20PM -0800, Lucy Greco wrote:
>> all of these other options you are talking about have been tried. the
>> problem is blind people are not the only people with disability on the
>> web. if its a math problem a person that has a math learning disability
>> will be blocked. and a word game like the logic problem will make it hard
>> if the person is not a English speaker or has a cognitive disability this
>> is a long time problem but a lot of people are working on it and maybe one
>> day we will find a good answer. lucy
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:43 AM, rjaquiss < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Ella:
>> >
>> > I have seen CAPTCHAs that use math questions or simple logic questions
>> > such as, "What is larger, a dog or a horse?"
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Robert
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lucia Greco
>> Web Accessibility Evangelist
>> IST - Architecture, Platforms, and Integration
>> University of California, Berkeley
>> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
>> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>> Follow me on twitter @accessaces
>> >> >> >> > > > >