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Thread: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Gillen, Lori
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 9:33AM
Subject: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
No previous message | Next message →

Hi-

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.

I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.

Thank you,

Lori Gillen
McKesson Corporation
275 Grove Street
Newton, MA 02466

From: Andrea Miralia
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 10:05AM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | Next message →

I like DC better than 11, as it doesn't return as many "false positives" with the accessibility checker. I've already forgotten what the errors were that we had last year, but it was a case of Acrobat 11 finding errors that weren't there.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 11:33 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

Hi-

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.

I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.

Thank you,

Lori Gillen
McKesson Corporation
275 Grove Street
Newton, MA 02466

From: JP Jamous
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 10:06AM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Lori,

Do you do this visually with a mouse or are you able to use a screen reader when tagging?

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:33 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

Hi-

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.

I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.

Thank you,

Lori Gillen
McKesson Corporation
275 Grove Street
Newton, MA 02466

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 10:19AM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | Next message →

You'll probably get quite a few opinions about this.
I'm going to take an analytical viewpoint, point by point.

1. The difference in the experience you had with the earlier and later PDFs could be due to the PDFs themselves, not necessarily the version of Acrobat you used to remediate them. The quality of the PDF (and therefore, how easy or difficult it is to tag it or remediate it into compliance) depends upon several factors:
-- How the document was constructed in the source program.
-- How it was converted to a PDF from the source file (example, using the Acrobat PDF Maker plug-in gives a different result than using File/Print To PDF).
-- The source program itself and its version (example, Word 2007 doesn't convert certain items correctly to PDF while 2013 and 2016 do).
-- The actual tool used to create the PDF from the source file.
-- The skill level of the person who creates the source file.
-- The skill level of the person who is checking and remediating the PDF file.

Summary: you're comparing apples and oranges, rather than comparing the files objectively. To see if Acrobat DC will give you better results, take the first PDFs you corrected in Acrobat X and recorrect them in Acrobat DC.

2. Fixing PDFs after they are made is generally a painful, time-consuming, and expensive method. Different software programs (and versions) have different tools that can make it less painful, less time-consuming, and less costly, but it's still painful, time-consuming, and costly. No one has yet invented a magic wand that fixes lousy PDFs.

So one strategy is to make better source documents, learn how to export an accessible PDF from the source file using the best tools, and then check and do minor fixes on the PDF. Less pain. Less time. And less money.

3. Adobe created the Acrobat PDF format 30 years ago. It's now in the public domain with an ISO standard so that anyone can create PDF tools to that standard. Also, Adobe is the key player in maintaining and developing the PDF ISO standard, and is also a key player in maintaining and developing our international accessibility standards, such as WCAG and PDF/UA.

Adobe is not a perfect company, but it is a good company and it's safe to assume that they know a lot about Acrobat, the PDF standard, and accessibility. There are only a handful of people in the world (not companies, but individuals) who can match that knowledge. Some of these people have companies that create competing PDF tools, good tools that we use in our shop.

But no company has created the magic wand to fix all PDFs quickly and easily. It still takes a human being to identify and fix some items.

4. Don't expect outdated software to do today's job. The standards themselves are being tweaked and revised. The software tools are being expanded and fleshed out. And the former bugs in our tools and software are being corrected.

Recommendation:
1. Update all your software, not just Acrobat but office and the Adobe Creative Suite. Acrobat DC has a better accessibility checker than previous versions, as well as some improved tools and an updated PDFMaker plug-in for MS Office.
2. Have whoever is giving you these untagged PDFs do a better job at their end. They need to learn to create a compliant source file and then export it for accessibility with tags.
3. If that's not possible, ask for the source file, fix it rather than the PDF, and then export it to an accessible PDF from the source program.
4. Finally, check and verify the PDF for compliance with Acrobat, PAC, or other tools.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.
I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.
Thank you,
Lori Gillen

From: Gillen, Lori
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bevi-

Thank you for your very helpful recommendations. One thing I just wanted to say was that I did take the first PDFs that I corrected in Acrobat X and recorrected them in Acrobat DC, and the result was better with DC.

Lori Gillen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

You'll probably get quite a few opinions about this.
I'm going to take an analytical viewpoint, point by point.

1. The difference in the experience you had with the earlier and later PDFs could be due to the PDFs themselves, not necessarily the version of Acrobat you used to remediate them. The quality of the PDF (and therefore, how easy or difficult it is to tag it or remediate it into compliance) depends upon several factors:
-- How the document was constructed in the source program.
-- How it was converted to a PDF from the source file (example, using the Acrobat PDF Maker plug-in gives a different result than using File/Print To PDF).
-- The source program itself and its version (example, Word 2007 doesn't convert certain items correctly to PDF while 2013 and 2016 do).
-- The actual tool used to create the PDF from the source file.
-- The skill level of the person who creates the source file.
-- The skill level of the person who is checking and remediating the PDF file.

Summary: you're comparing apples and oranges, rather than comparing the files objectively. To see if Acrobat DC will give you better results, take the first PDFs you corrected in Acrobat X and recorrect them in Acrobat DC.

2. Fixing PDFs after they are made is generally a painful, time-consuming, and expensive method. Different software programs (and versions) have different tools that can make it less painful, less time-consuming, and less costly, but it's still painful, time-consuming, and costly. No one has yet invented a magic wand that fixes lousy PDFs.

So one strategy is to make better source documents, learn how to export an accessible PDF from the source file using the best tools, and then check and do minor fixes on the PDF. Less pain. Less time. And less money.

3. Adobe created the Acrobat PDF format 30 years ago. It's now in the public domain with an ISO standard so that anyone can create PDF tools to that standard. Also, Adobe is the key player in maintaining and developing the PDF ISO standard, and is also a key player in maintaining and developing our international accessibility standards, such as WCAG and PDF/UA.

Adobe is not a perfect company, but it is a good company and it's safe to assume that they know a lot about Acrobat, the PDF standard, and accessibility. There are only a handful of people in the world (not companies, but individuals) who can match that knowledge. Some of these people have companies that create competing PDF tools, good tools that we use in our shop.

But no company has created the magic wand to fix all PDFs quickly and easily. It still takes a human being to identify and fix some items.

4. Don't expect outdated software to do today's job. The standards themselves are being tweaked and revised. The software tools are being expanded and fleshed out. And the former bugs in our tools and software are being corrected.

Recommendation:
1. Update all your software, not just Acrobat but office and the Adobe Creative Suite. Acrobat DC has a better accessibility checker than previous versions, as well as some improved tools and an updated PDFMaker plug-in for MS Office.
2. Have whoever is giving you these untagged PDFs do a better job at their end. They need to learn to create a compliant source file and then export it for accessibility with tags.
3. If that's not possible, ask for the source file, fix it rather than the PDF, and then export it to an accessible PDF from the source program.
4. Finally, check and verify the PDF for compliance with Acrobat, PAC, or other tools.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS73hJ5xWXbXbXPNISyyCyYOC--yrhhjhupjsphdCPpJmNnWkH3BPrXW20GNpYwaL8KE8Lmo5hPP9EV5mbT82F0sNslvRRxROX9EVd7bKCPpISr01bdA5-nMSq8x8DF65o6y03jh05CO0BlkQh6y0Qum9Whxm0amr8bYKqfzq8UQsTKr1vF6y0QJwbV0g3hIQKCy04Wh8Owhd40m3xuxEwciCjd40xqdi6PdIL6QPrNKVJUSyrh
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.
I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.
Thank you,
Lori Gillen

From: Gillen, Lori
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 11:13AM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for your response! I tried DC first and found that it was good enough for me so I didn't try 11.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Andrea Miralia
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:05 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat



I like DC better than 11, as it doesn't return as many "false positives" with the accessibility checker. I've already forgotten what the errors were that we had last year, but it was a case of Acrobat 11 finding errors that weren't there.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 11:33 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

Hi-

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.

I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.

Thank you,

Lori Gillen
McKesson Corporation
275 Grove Street
Newton, MA 02466

From: Gillen, Lori
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 11:15AM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | Next message →

I do it visually with a mouse because I am hard of hearing and can't easily hear a screen reader. To check my results, I export to plain or accessible text (don't know the difference between the two) and check the results that way.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:07 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

Hi Lori,

Do you do this visually with a mouse or are you able to use a screen reader when tagging?

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:33 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

Hi-

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.

I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.

Thank you,

Lori Gillen
McKesson Corporation
275 Grove Street
Newton, MA 02466

From: Gillen, Lori
Date: Mon, Nov 28 2016 1:39PM
Subject: Re: Tagging PDFs with Acrobat
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Bevi-

I just read your email in more detail and I have the following questions for you:

What tool do you recommend to convert or export a source file to a PDF for screen-reader readiness? You mentioned that using the Acrobat PDF Maker plug-in gives a different result than using File/Print To PDF, but you didn't indicate which was better.

Do you know of a source - article or website - that can tell me which tools are most compatible with each other for tagging pdfs for screen-reader readiness?

As you might be able to sense from my questions, I am a novice at this process.

Thanks for your time,

Lori


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 12:20 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging PDFs with Acrobat

You'll probably get quite a few opinions about this.
I'm going to take an analytical viewpoint, point by point.

1. The difference in the experience you had with the earlier and later PDFs could be due to the PDFs themselves, not necessarily the version of Acrobat you used to remediate them. The quality of the PDF (and therefore, how easy or difficult it is to tag it or remediate it into compliance) depends upon several factors:
-- How the document was constructed in the source program.
-- How it was converted to a PDF from the source file (example, using the Acrobat PDF Maker plug-in gives a different result than using File/Print To PDF).
-- The source program itself and its version (example, Word 2007 doesn't convert certain items correctly to PDF while 2013 and 2016 do).
-- The actual tool used to create the PDF from the source file.
-- The skill level of the person who creates the source file.
-- The skill level of the person who is checking and remediating the PDF file.

Summary: you're comparing apples and oranges, rather than comparing the files objectively. To see if Acrobat DC will give you better results, take the first PDFs you corrected in Acrobat X and recorrect them in Acrobat DC.

2. Fixing PDFs after they are made is generally a painful, time-consuming, and expensive method. Different software programs (and versions) have different tools that can make it less painful, less time-consuming, and less costly, but it's still painful, time-consuming, and costly. No one has yet invented a magic wand that fixes lousy PDFs.

So one strategy is to make better source documents, learn how to export an accessible PDF from the source file using the best tools, and then check and do minor fixes on the PDF. Less pain. Less time. And less money.

3. Adobe created the Acrobat PDF format 30 years ago. It's now in the public domain with an ISO standard so that anyone can create PDF tools to that standard. Also, Adobe is the key player in maintaining and developing the PDF ISO standard, and is also a key player in maintaining and developing our international accessibility standards, such as WCAG and PDF/UA.

Adobe is not a perfect company, but it is a good company and it's safe to assume that they know a lot about Acrobat, the PDF standard, and accessibility. There are only a handful of people in the world (not companies, but individuals) who can match that knowledge. Some of these people have companies that create competing PDF tools, good tools that we use in our shop.

But no company has created the magic wand to fix all PDFs quickly and easily. It still takes a human being to identify and fix some items.

4. Don't expect outdated software to do today's job. The standards themselves are being tweaked and revised. The software tools are being expanded and fleshed out. And the former bugs in our tools and software are being corrected.

Recommendation:
1. Update all your software, not just Acrobat but office and the Adobe Creative Suite. Acrobat DC has a better accessibility checker than previous versions, as well as some improved tools and an updated PDFMaker plug-in for MS Office.
2. Have whoever is giving you these untagged PDFs do a better job at their end. They need to learn to create a compliant source file and then export it for accessibility with tags.
3. If that's not possible, ask for the source file, fix it rather than the PDF, and then export it to an accessible PDF from the source program.
4. Finally, check and verify the PDF for compliance with Acrobat, PAC, or other tools.

--Bevi Chagnon

— — —
Bevi Chagnon | http://cp.mcafee.com/d/FZsS73hJ5xWXbXbXPNISyyCyYOC--yrhhjhupjsphdCPpJmNnWkH3BPrXW20GNpYwaL8KE8Lmo5hPP9EV5mbT82F0sNslvRRxROX9EVd7bKCPpISr01bdA5-nMSq8x8DF65o6y03jh05CO0BlkQh6y0Qum9Whxm0amr8bYKqfzq8UQsTKr1vF6y0QJwbV0g3hIQKCy04Wh8Owhd40m3xuxEwciCjd40xqdi6PdIL6QPrNKVJUSyrh
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers for publishing & communication
| Acrobat PDF | Print | EPUBS | Sec. 508 Accessibility |
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Gillen, Lori

A month or two ago, I tagged a number of pdfs from within Acrobat X and it was a painful process with many errors that I couldn't resolve. More recently, I downloaded a trial version of Acrobat DC and was able to tag pdfs with no errors.
I am ready to purchase Acrobat DC but want some feedback from this group as to why I should or should not buy it.
Thank you,
Lori Gillen