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Thread: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
Number of posts in this thread: 14 (In chronological order)
From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 9:00AM
Subject: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
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If content is marked up with the <article> tag and within that <article>
tag there is a <header> tag, is it required or recommended to make an
explicit association between them using aria-labelledby attribute or would
that be redundant or too verbose? Thanks!
--
Rob Fentress
Senior Accessibility Solutions Designer
Assistive Technologies at Virginia Tech
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From: chagnon
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 9:09AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommendedfor <article>?
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I think you mean heading, not header.
Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a page header or table header.
The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx tags.
To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is within the Article tag.
â â â
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
â â â
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
â â â
From: JP Jamous
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 9:13AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommendedfor <article>?
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Rob,
It would be unnecessary because you already informed the screen reader of your region labeling. So using ARIA at this point would not be advised by ARIA standards.
If you have 2 different <header> on the page, then using ari-label might be necessary to explain to the screen reader user programmatically what each one serves. Typically, I expect as a user to have one <header> on a web page. If I run into more than one, it can confuse me, as I may not be able to identify the purpose of the second header or where it applies in relationship to the rest of the page.
From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 9:53AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
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Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other than a
heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically get
populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple articles
on a page without diving into the contents of each. If there are multiple
nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to enable the user to
quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same sense, wouldn't
you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even remember if any screen
readers provide affordances for jumping between or listing articles, per
se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I think you mean heading, not header.
>
> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a page
> header or table header.
>
> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained
> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that
> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx tags.
>
> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is within
> the Article tag.
>
> â â â
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> â â â
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> â â â
>
>
From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 10:31AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
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So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on the
page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby to the
id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name. Otherwise,
it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
Basically, it must be explicitly named.
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other than a
> heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically get
> populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
>
> My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
> articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If there are
> multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to enable the
> user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same sense,
> wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even remember if
> any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or listing
> articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I think you mean heading, not header.
>>
>> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a page
>> header or table header.
>>
>> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained
>> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that
>> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx tags.
>>
>> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is within
>> the Article tag.
>>
>> â â â
>> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> â â â
>> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
>> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
>> â â â
>>
>>
From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 11:24AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
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Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to be
interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not given
a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
Thanks,
Jonathan Cohn
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on the
> page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby to the
> id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name. Otherwise,
> it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
> Basically, it must be explicitly named.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other than a
> > heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically get
> > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
> >
> > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
> > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If there
> are
> > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to enable
> the
> > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same
> sense,
> > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even remember if
> > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or listing
> > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> I think you mean heading, not header.
> >>
> >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a page
> >> header or table header.
> >>
> >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained
> >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that
> >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx tags.
> >>
> >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is within
> >> the Article tag.
> >>
> >> â â â
> >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> â â â
> >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> >> â â â
> >>
> >>
From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 11:35AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
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Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of landmark (one
not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS "region"
navigation includes things marked up with the <article> tag is a potential
source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in HTML5 as "sectioning
content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/sections.html#the-article-element)
though, so I wonder if, maybe, it would be better for JAWS to use that
nomenclature. So, rather than suggesting to users that they are navigating
by *region*, JAWS should indicate they are navigating by *section*,
instead.
Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the <article> tag.
However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog under
"Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting, since I
aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the "banner"
role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner" per
page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are <header>s,
but not all <header>s are banners.
Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is defined as a
subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't be only
one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby" on both
the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to the id of the
heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers are listed
as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List" dialog.
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to be
> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not given
> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
> Thanks,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on the
> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby to
> the
> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
> Otherwise,
> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other than
> a
> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically get
> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
> > >
> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If there
> > are
> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to enable
> > the
> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same
> > sense,
> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even remember
> if
> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or listing
> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
> > >>
> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a page
> > >> header or table header.
> > >>
> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained
> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that
> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx
> tags.
> > >>
> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is
> within
> > >> the Article tag.
> > >>
> > >> â â â
> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> â â â
> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> > >> â â â
> > >>
> > >>
From: Robert Fentress
Date: Mon, Feb 05 2018 12:43PM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | Next message →
Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by article
from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of landmark
> (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS
> "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article> tag is a
> potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in HTML5 as
> "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
> sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe, it
> would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
> suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS should
> indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
>
> Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the <article>
> tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog
> under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting, since
> I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the "banner"
> role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner" per
> page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are <header>s,
> but not all <header>s are banners.
>
> Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
>
> Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is defined as
> a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't be only
> one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
>
> Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby" on
> both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to the id of
> the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers are
> listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List" dialog.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to be
>> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not given
>> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jonathan Cohn
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on
>> the
>> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby to
>> the
>> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
>> Otherwise,
>> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
>> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other
>> than a
>> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically
>> get
>> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
>> > >
>> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
>> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If there
>> > are
>> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to
>> enable
>> > the
>> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same
>> > sense,
>> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even remember
>> if
>> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or listing
>> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
>> > >>
>> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a
>> page
>> > >> header or table header.
>> > >>
>> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained
>> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that
>> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx
>> tags.
>> > >>
>> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is
>> within
>> > >> the Article tag.
>> > >>
>> > >> â â â
>> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > >> â â â
>> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
>> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
>> > >> â â â
>> > >>
>> > >>
From: Mallory
Date: Tue, Feb 06 2018 1:35AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi,
regarding this:
>However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog under
"Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE).
This is an IE bug :)
JAWS also calls all headers "banners" in all browsers.
The moving-by-article seems to be a JAWS thing as well.
https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/35
cheers,
Mallory
On Mon, Feb 5, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Robert Fentress wrote:
> Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by article
> from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
> this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of landmark
> > (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS
> > "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article> tag is a
> > potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in HTML5 as
> > "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
> > sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe, it
> > would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
> > suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS should
> > indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
> >
> > Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the <article>
> > tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog
> > under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting, since
> > I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the "banner"
> > role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner" per
> > page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are <header>s,
> > but not all <header>s are banners.
> >
> > Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
> >
> > Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is defined as
> > a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't be only
> > one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
> >
> > Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby" on
> > both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to the id of
> > the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers are
> > listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List" dialog.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to be
> >> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not given
> >> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jonathan Cohn
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>
> >> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on
> >> the
> >> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby to
> >> the
> >> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
> >> Otherwise,
> >> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
> >> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other
> >> than a
> >> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically
> >> get
> >> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
> >> > >
> >> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
> >> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If there
> >> > are
> >> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to
> >> enable
> >> > the
> >> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same
> >> > sense,
> >> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even remember
> >> if
> >> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or listing
> >> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a
> >> page
> >> > >> header or table header.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a self-contained
> >> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag that
> >> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx
> >> tags.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is
> >> within
> >> > >> the Article tag.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> â â â
> >> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > >> â â â
> >> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> >> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> >> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> >> > >> â â â
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, Feb 06 2018 2:12PM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | Next message →
The spec guidance for how to treat <article> and <header> elements and
the article role is confusing.
If you look at the ARIA in HTML5 table entry for the <article> and
<header> elements
http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/
you see that the <header> element, when child of a <section> or
<article> element is not a banner landmark and should not be treated
as such (there is a discussion on this over on GitHub, I can dig up
the link and post it here later)
But how should assistive technologies treat a <header> element that is
the child of an <article> element? There is no screen reader role for
header, only heading or banner, both are different.
Then there is the question of what to do with the article role itself
(that the <article> element maps to).
If you Google the ARIA 1.1 spec and locate the article role in section
5.4, you see that the article role is not supposed to be a landmark.
Still the text says that assistive technologies should make usres
aware of articles, though the specification does not say how.
So we have two problems here.
1. What should assistive technologies do with the article role? Jaws
lumps it in with landmarks rather than inventing a whole new way to
navigate the page (sensible).
NVDA ignores them, because there is no clear guidance on how to treat
them (kind of makes sense)
Voiceover offers a separate way to navigate by article (well, makes
sort of sense).
I can't fault any of the approaches to be honest.
2. What to do with the <header> tag?
Jaws uses the banner role, because there is nothing else available at
the moment, not necessarily good, I think it is a bad idea to be
honest.
But NVDA and Voiceover ignore this element, even if it technically has
a semantic meaning. That is also bad, but how should it be
communicated?
I think this is a clear case of nobody has figured out whether this
structure is useful to assistive technologies and how it can be made
most useful.
I would technically recommend putting a unique id on the header tag
for each article and use aria-labelledby on the <article> tag to point
to it.
It doesn't hurt and for those assistive technologies that expose
articles, they can now expose them with an accessible name.
On 2/6/18, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
> regarding this:
>>However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog under
> "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE).
>
> This is an IE bug :)
>
> JAWS also calls all headers "banners" in all browsers.
>
> The moving-by-article seems to be a JAWS thing as well.
> https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/35
>
> cheers,
> Mallory
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Robert Fentress wrote:
>> Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by article
>> from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
>> this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> > Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
>> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of landmark
>> > (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS
>> > "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article> tag is
>> > a
>> > potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in HTML5 as
>> > "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
>> > sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe, it
>> > would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
>> > suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS should
>> > indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
>> >
>> > Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the <article>
>> > tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List"
>> > dialog
>> > under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting,
>> > since
>> > I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the
>> > "banner"
>> > role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner" per
>> > page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are
>> > <header>s,
>> > but not all <header>s are banners.
>> >
>> > Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
>> >
>> > Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is defined
>> > as
>> > a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't be
>> > only
>> > one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
>> >
>> > Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby" on
>> > both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to the id
>> > of
>> > the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers are
>> > listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List"
>> > dialog.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to
>> >> be
>> >> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not
>> >> given
>> >> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Jonathan Cohn
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on
>> >> the
>> >> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby
>> >> > to
>> >> the
>> >> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
>> >> Otherwise,
>> >> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
>> >> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other
>> >> than a
>> >> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically
>> >> get
>> >> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
>> >> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If
>> >> > > there
>> >> > are
>> >> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to
>> >> enable
>> >> > the
>> >> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same
>> >> > sense,
>> >> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even
>> >> > > remember
>> >> if
>> >> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or
>> >> > > listing
>> >> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a
>> >> page
>> >> > >> header or table header.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a
>> >> > >> self-contained
>> >> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag
>> >> > >> that
>> >> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx
>> >> tags.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is
>> >> within
>> >> > >> the Article tag.
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> â â â
>> >> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >> > >> â â â
>> >> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>> >> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
>> >> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
>> >> > >> â â â
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
From: Mallory
Date: Sun, Feb 11 2018 4:50AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | Next message →
I think it could be useful to offer articles as navigable elements (but at the reader's discretion since some pages article up the articles with articles because it's like the new div for them). For <header> inside articles and sections... since I take it we're expected to put actual headings (<hx>) tags in the <header>s, I kinda don't see the point and AT really doing anything with them-- JAWS calling them all banners is harmful as it pollutes the banner role. Same for footers. When I use them in things like articles, it's for easier CSS styling and JS targeting. Semantics-wise it reminds me of email headers and bodies. Kinda like using aria-controls when aria-controls is pointing to someone who is display: none-- it apparently does nothing useful when the pointed-to thing is display: none, but it looks cute in the code and is nice as a JS hook.
cheers,
Mallory
On Tue, Feb 6, 2018, at 10:12 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> The spec guidance for how to treat <article> and <header> elements and
> the article role is confusing.
> If you look at the ARIA in HTML5 table entry for the <article> and
> <header> elements
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/
> you see that the <header> element, when child of a <section> or
> <article> element is not a banner landmark and should not be treated
> as such (there is a discussion on this over on GitHub, I can dig up
> the link and post it here later)
> But how should assistive technologies treat a <header> element that is
> the child of an <article> element? There is no screen reader role for
> header, only heading or banner, both are different.
> Then there is the question of what to do with the article role itself
> (that the <article> element maps to).
> If you Google the ARIA 1.1 spec and locate the article role in section
> 5.4, you see that the article role is not supposed to be a landmark.
> Still the text says that assistive technologies should make usres
> aware of articles, though the specification does not say how.
>
>
> So we have two problems here.
> 1. What should assistive technologies do with the article role? Jaws
> lumps it in with landmarks rather than inventing a whole new way to
> navigate the page (sensible).
> NVDA ignores them, because there is no clear guidance on how to treat
> them (kind of makes sense)
> Voiceover offers a separate way to navigate by article (well, makes
> sort of sense).
>
> I can't fault any of the approaches to be honest.
>
> 2. What to do with the <header> tag?
> Jaws uses the banner role, because there is nothing else available at
> the moment, not necessarily good, I think it is a bad idea to be
> honest.
> But NVDA and Voiceover ignore this element, even if it technically has
> a semantic meaning. That is also bad, but how should it be
> communicated?
>
> I think this is a clear case of nobody has figured out whether this
> structure is useful to assistive technologies and how it can be made
> most useful.
> I would technically recommend putting a unique id on the header tag
> for each article and use aria-labelledby on the <article> tag to point
> to it.
> It doesn't hurt and for those assistive technologies that expose
> articles, they can now expose them with an accessible name.
>
>
>
> On 2/6/18, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Hi,
> > regarding this:
> >>However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog under
> > "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE).
> >
> > This is an IE bug :)
> >
> > JAWS also calls all headers "banners" in all browsers.
> >
> > The moving-by-article seems to be a JAWS thing as well.
> > https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/35
> >
> > cheers,
> > Mallory
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Robert Fentress wrote:
> >> Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by article
> >> from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
> >> this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
> >> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of landmark
> >> > (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS
> >> > "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article> tag is
> >> > a
> >> > potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in HTML5 as
> >> > "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
> >> > sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe, it
> >> > would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
> >> > suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS should
> >> > indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
> >> >
> >> > Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the <article>
> >> > tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List"
> >> > dialog
> >> > under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting,
> >> > since
> >> > I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the
> >> > "banner"
> >> > role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner" per
> >> > page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are
> >> > <header>s,
> >> > but not all <header>s are banners.
> >> >
> >> > Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
> >> >
> >> > Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is defined
> >> > as
> >> > a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't be
> >> > only
> >> > one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
> >> >
> >> > Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby" on
> >> > both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to the id
> >> > of
> >> > the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers are
> >> > listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List"
> >> > dialog.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to
> >> >> be
> >> >> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not
> >> >> given
> >> >> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >>
> >> >> Jonathan Cohn
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions on
> >> >> the
> >> >> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby
> >> >> > to
> >> >> the
> >> >> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
> >> >> Otherwise,
> >> >> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
> >> >> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other
> >> >> than a
> >> >> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article automatically
> >> >> get
> >> >> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
> >> >> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If
> >> >> > > there
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to
> >> >> enable
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the same
> >> >> > sense,
> >> >> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even
> >> >> > > remember
> >> >> if
> >> >> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or
> >> >> > > listing
> >> >> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be useful.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a
> >> >> page
> >> >> > >> header or table header.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a
> >> >> > >> self-contained
> >> >> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag
> >> >> > >> that
> >> >> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and Hx
> >> >> tags.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is
> >> >> within
> >> >> > >> the Article tag.
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> â â â
> >> >> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> >> > >> â â â
> >> >> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> >> >> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> >> >> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> >> >> > >> â â â
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Sun, Feb 11 2018 5:40AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | Next message →
>1. What should assistive technologies do with the article role? Jaws
>lumps it in with landmarks rather than inventing a whole new way to
> navigate the page (sensible).
JAWS did lump article in with regions, but no longer does (JAWS 2018).
Reason why not? it is not a region.
There is an open bug to add a separate method to navigate to article
elements.
https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/28
What I have suggest to my colleagues at Freedom Scientific is to repurpose
the ctrl+z shortcut, which provides navigation to <div>s, to provide
article navigation.
--
Regards
SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
On 6 February 2018 at 08:35, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
> regarding this:
> >However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog
> under
> "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE).
>
> This is an IE bug :)
>
> JAWS also calls all headers "banners" in all browsers.
>
> The moving-by-article seems to be a JAWS thing as well.
> https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/35
>
> cheers,
> Mallory
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Robert Fentress wrote:
> > Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by
> article
> > from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
> > this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > > Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
> > > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of landmark
> > > (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS
> > > "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article> tag
> is a
> > > potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in HTML5
> as
> > > "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
> > > sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe, it
> > > would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
> > > suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS should
> > > indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
> > >
> > > Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the <article>
> > > tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List"
> dialog
> > > under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting,
> since
> > > I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the
> "banner"
> > > role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner" per
> > > page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are
> <header>s,
> > > but not all <header>s are banners.
> > >
> > > Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
> > >
> > > Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is defined
> as
> > > a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't be
> only
> > > one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
> > >
> > > Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby" on
> > > both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to the
> id of
> > > the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers are
> > > listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List"
> dialog.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need to
> be
> > >> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are not
> given
> > >> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Jonathan Cohn
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of regions
> on
> > >> the
> > >> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing aria-labelledby
> to
> > >> the
> > >> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
> > >> Otherwise,
> > >> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
> > >> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content other
> > >> than a
> > >> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article
> automatically
> > >> get
> > >> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst multiple
> > >> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each. If
> there
> > >> > are
> > >> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them to
> > >> enable
> > >> > the
> > >> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the
> same
> > >> > sense,
> > >> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even
> remember
> > >> if
> > >> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or
> listing
> > >> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be
> useful.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such as a
> > >> page
> > >> > >> header or table header.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a
> self-contained
> > >> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container tag
> that
> > >> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P and
> Hx
> > >> tags.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx tag is
> > >> within
> > >> > >> the Article tag.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> â â â
> > >> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> > >> â â â
> > >> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> > >> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> > >> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> > >> > >> â â â
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Sun, Feb 11 2018 5:43AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | Next message →
>I kinda don't see the point and AT really doing anything with them-- JAWS
calling them all banners is harmful as it pollutes the >banner role. Same
for footers.
agreed, that's why we modified the the semantics for header/footer in
sections/articles in the HTML Accessibility mappings spec so they have a
generic group role that is not conveyed by default in the aural UI.
--
Regards
SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C
<http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
On 11 February 2018 at 11:50, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I think it could be useful to offer articles as navigable elements (but at
> the reader's discretion since some pages article up the articles with
> articles because it's like the new div for them). For <header> inside
> articles and sections... since I take it we're expected to put actual
> headings (<hx>) tags in the <header>s, I kinda don't see the point and AT
> really doing anything with them-- JAWS calling them all banners is harmful
> as it pollutes the banner role. Same for footers. When I use them in things
> like articles, it's for easier CSS styling and JS targeting. Semantics-wise
> it reminds me of email headers and bodies. Kinda like using aria-controls
> when aria-controls is pointing to someone who is display: none-- it
> apparently does nothing useful when the pointed-to thing is display: none,
> but it looks cute in the code and is nice as a JS hook.
>
> cheers,
> Mallory
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018, at 10:12 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
> > The spec guidance for how to treat <article> and <header> elements and
> > the article role is confusing.
> > If you look at the ARIA in HTML5 table entry for the <article> and
> > <header> elements
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/
> > you see that the <header> element, when child of a <section> or
> > <article> element is not a banner landmark and should not be treated
> > as such (there is a discussion on this over on GitHub, I can dig up
> > the link and post it here later)
> > But how should assistive technologies treat a <header> element that is
> > the child of an <article> element? There is no screen reader role for
> > header, only heading or banner, both are different.
> > Then there is the question of what to do with the article role itself
> > (that the <article> element maps to).
> > If you Google the ARIA 1.1 spec and locate the article role in section
> > 5.4, you see that the article role is not supposed to be a landmark.
> > Still the text says that assistive technologies should make usres
> > aware of articles, though the specification does not say how.
> >
> >
> > So we have two problems here.
> > 1. What should assistive technologies do with the article role? Jaws
> > lumps it in with landmarks rather than inventing a whole new way to
> > navigate the page (sensible).
> > NVDA ignores them, because there is no clear guidance on how to treat
> > them (kind of makes sense)
> > Voiceover offers a separate way to navigate by article (well, makes
> > sort of sense).
> >
> > I can't fault any of the approaches to be honest.
> >
> > 2. What to do with the <header> tag?
> > Jaws uses the banner role, because there is nothing else available at
> > the moment, not necessarily good, I think it is a bad idea to be
> > honest.
> > But NVDA and Voiceover ignore this element, even if it technically has
> > a semantic meaning. That is also bad, but how should it be
> > communicated?
> >
> > I think this is a clear case of nobody has figured out whether this
> > structure is useful to assistive technologies and how it can be made
> > most useful.
> > I would technically recommend putting a unique id on the header tag
> > for each article and use aria-labelledby on the <article> tag to point
> > to it.
> > It doesn't hurt and for those assistive technologies that expose
> > articles, they can now expose them with an accessible name.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/6/18, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > regarding this:
> > >>However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog
> under
> > > "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE).
> > >
> > > This is an IE bug :)
> > >
> > > JAWS also calls all headers "banners" in all browsers.
> > >
> > > The moving-by-article seems to be a JAWS thing as well.
> > > https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/35
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > Mallory
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Robert Fentress wrote:
> > >> Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by
> article
> > >> from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
> > >> this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
> > >> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of
> landmark
> > >> > (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that JAWS
> > >> > "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article>
> tag is
> > >> > a
> > >> > potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in
> HTML5 as
> > >> > "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
> > >> > sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe,
> it
> > >> > would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
> > >> > suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS
> should
> > >> > indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
> > >> >
> > >> > Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the
> <article>
> > >> > tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List"
> > >> > dialog
> > >> > under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is interesting,
> > >> > since
> > >> > I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the
> > >> > "banner"
> > >> > role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner"
> per
> > >> > page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are
> > >> > <header>s,
> > >> > but not all <header>s are banners.
> > >> >
> > >> > Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is
> defined
> > >> > as
> > >> > a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't
> be
> > >> > only
> > >> > one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
> > >> >
> > >> > Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby"
> on
> > >> > both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to
> the id
> > >> > of
> > >> > the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers
> are
> > >> > listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List"
> > >> > dialog.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need
> to
> > >> >> be
> > >> >> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are
> not
> > >> >> given
> > >> >> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
> > >> >> Thanks,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Jonathan Cohn
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of
> regions on
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing
> aria-labelledby
> > >> >> > to
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
> > >> >> Otherwise,
> > >> >> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
> > >> >> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content
> other
> > >> >> than a
> > >> >> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article
> automatically
> > >> >> get
> > >> >> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst
> multiple
> > >> >> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each.
> If
> > >> >> > > there
> > >> >> > are
> > >> >> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them
> to
> > >> >> enable
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the
> same
> > >> >> > sense,
> > >> >> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even
> > >> >> > > remember
> > >> >> if
> > >> >> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or
> > >> >> > > listing
> > >> >> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be
> useful.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such
> as a
> > >> >> page
> > >> >> > >> header or table header.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a
> > >> >> > >> self-contained
> > >> >> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container
> tag
> > >> >> > >> that
> > >> >> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P
> and Hx
> > >> >> tags.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx
> tag is
> > >> >> within
> > >> >> > >> the Article tag.
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> â â â
> > >> >> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > >> >> > >> â â â
> > >> >> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> > >> >> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508
> services
> > >> >> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> > >> >> > >> â â â
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >>
From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sun, Feb 11 2018 8:49AM
Subject: Re: Explicit association with <header> required/recommended for <article>?
← Previous message | No next message
I'm on board with that idea. Having a shortcut that navigates to divs
never made sense to me, maybe it did a long time ago when one webpage
had less than 10 million divs.
On 2/11/18, Steve Faulkner < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>I kinda don't see the point and AT really doing anything with them-- JAWS
> calling them all banners is harmful as it pollutes the >banner role. Same
> for footers.
>
> agreed, that's why we modified the the semantics for header/footer in
> sections/articles in the HTML Accessibility mappings spec so they have a
> generic group role that is not conveyed by default in the aural UI.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> Current Standards Work @W3C
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
>
> On 11 February 2018 at 11:50, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> I think it could be useful to offer articles as navigable elements (but at
>> the reader's discretion since some pages article up the articles with
>> articles because it's like the new div for them). For <header> inside
>> articles and sections... since I take it we're expected to put actual
>> headings (<hx>) tags in the <header>s, I kinda don't see the point and AT
>> really doing anything with them-- JAWS calling them all banners is harmful
>> as it pollutes the banner role. Same for footers. When I use them in
>> things
>> like articles, it's for easier CSS styling and JS targeting.
>> Semantics-wise
>> it reminds me of email headers and bodies. Kinda like using aria-controls
>> when aria-controls is pointing to someone who is display: none-- it
>> apparently does nothing useful when the pointed-to thing is display: none,
>> but it looks cute in the code and is nice as a JS hook.
>>
>> cheers,
>> Mallory
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018, at 10:12 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:
>> > The spec guidance for how to treat <article> and <header> elements and
>> > the article role is confusing.
>> > If you look at the ARIA in HTML5 table entry for the <article> and
>> > <header> elements
>> > http://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/
>> > you see that the <header> element, when child of a <section> or
>> > <article> element is not a banner landmark and should not be treated
>> > as such (there is a discussion on this over on GitHub, I can dig up
>> > the link and post it here later)
>> > But how should assistive technologies treat a <header> element that is
>> > the child of an <article> element? There is no screen reader role for
>> > header, only heading or banner, both are different.
>> > Then there is the question of what to do with the article role itself
>> > (that the <article> element maps to).
>> > If you Google the ARIA 1.1 spec and locate the article role in section
>> > 5.4, you see that the article role is not supposed to be a landmark.
>> > Still the text says that assistive technologies should make usres
>> > aware of articles, though the specification does not say how.
>> >
>> >
>> > So we have two problems here.
>> > 1. What should assistive technologies do with the article role? Jaws
>> > lumps it in with landmarks rather than inventing a whole new way to
>> > navigate the page (sensible).
>> > NVDA ignores them, because there is no clear guidance on how to treat
>> > them (kind of makes sense)
>> > Voiceover offers a separate way to navigate by article (well, makes
>> > sort of sense).
>> >
>> > I can't fault any of the approaches to be honest.
>> >
>> > 2. What to do with the <header> tag?
>> > Jaws uses the banner role, because there is nothing else available at
>> > the moment, not necessarily good, I think it is a bad idea to be
>> > honest.
>> > But NVDA and Voiceover ignore this element, even if it technically has
>> > a semantic meaning. That is also bad, but how should it be
>> > communicated?
>> >
>> > I think this is a clear case of nobody has figured out whether this
>> > structure is useful to assistive technologies and how it can be made
>> > most useful.
>> > I would technically recommend putting a unique id on the header tag
>> > for each article and use aria-labelledby on the <article> tag to point
>> > to it.
>> > It doesn't hurt and for those assistive technologies that expose
>> > articles, they can now expose them with an accessible name.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2/6/18, Mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > > Hi,
>> > > regarding this:
>> > >>However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List" dialog
>> under
>> > > "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE).
>> > >
>> > > This is an IE bug :)
>> > >
>> > > JAWS also calls all headers "banners" in all browsers.
>> > >
>> > > The moving-by-article seems to be a JAWS thing as well.
>> > > https://github.com/FreedomScientific/VFO-standards-support/issues/35
>> > >
>> > > cheers,
>> > > Mallory
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Robert Fentress wrote:
>> > >> Also, starting at MacOS High Sierra, it is possible to navigate by
>> article
>> > >> from the Web Rotor on VO (thanks to Scott O'Hara for the heads up on
>> > >> this). So, in that context, labeled articles is of benefit, as well.
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Interestingly, the "region" role is defined by ARIA 1.1 (
>> > >> > https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#region) as a subclass of
>> landmark
>> > >> > (one not otherwise defined more specifically), so the fact that
>> > >> > JAWS
>> > >> > "region" navigation includes things marked up with the <article>
>> tag is
>> > >> > a
>> > >> > potential source of confusion. The <article> tag is defined in
>> HTML5 as
>> > >> > "sectioning content" (https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/
>> > >> > sections.html#the-article-element) though, so I wonder if, maybe,
>> it
>> > >> > would be better for JAWS to use that nomenclature. So, rather than
>> > >> > suggesting to users that they are navigating by *region*, JAWS
>> should
>> > >> > indicate they are navigating by *section*, instead.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Also, it appears as though NVDA doesn't do anything with the
>> <article>
>> > >> > tag. However, it does list any <header> tags in the "Elements List"
>> > >> > dialog
>> > >> > under "Landmarks" as "banner" (but only in IE). This is
>> > >> > interesting,
>> > >> > since
>> > >> > I aways saw a subtle difference between the <header> tag and the
>> > >> > "banner"
>> > >> > role, in that you can only have one element with the role "banner"
>> per
>> > >> > page, but can have multiple <header> tags. So, all banners are
>> > >> > <header>s,
>> > >> > but not all <header>s are banners.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Or so I thought. NVDA seems to see them as the same, based on this.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Perhaps, I misinterpreted things, though, because <article> is
>> defined
>> > >> > as
>> > >> > a subclass of "document". So maybe the rule isn't that there can't
>> be
>> > >> > only
>> > >> > one banner per page, but, rather, only one banner per document?
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Maybe to benefit those NVDA users, you should use "aria-labelledby"
>> on
>> > >> > both the <article> *and* the <header> tags, with both pointing to
>> the id
>> > >> > of
>> > >> > the heading in the <header>. If you do that, those labelled headers
>> are
>> > >> > listed as *Your heading goes here; banner* in the "Elements List"
>> > >> > dialog.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> >
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> Also, with VoiceOver on Macintosh Articles can be blocks that need
>> to
>> > >> >> be
>> > >> >> interacted with in at least "Group Navigation" mode. If they are
>> not
>> > >> >> given
>> > >> >> a label than VoiceOver will just say "article".
>> > >> >> Thanks,
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Jonathan Cohn
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:32 PM Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > So, checking in JAWS 18, CTRL+Insert+R brings up a list of
>> regions on
>> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> > page. If you have labelled your region by pointing
>> aria-labelledby
>> > >> >> > to
>> > >> >> the
>> > >> >> > id for the heading, then the article is listed with that name.
>> > >> >> Otherwise,
>> > >> >> > it just says article, even if you have a heading in the article.
>> > >> >> > Basically, it must be explicitly named.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Robert Fentress < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> > >> >> > wrote:
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > > Yeah, I guess you're right. A header could contain content
>> other
>> > >> >> than a
>> > >> >> > > heading. So does the accessible name for the article
>> automatically
>> > >> >> get
>> > >> >> > > populated with the highest heading level it contains then?
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > My use case is if the user wants to have navigate amongst
>> multiple
>> > >> >> > > articles on a page without diving into the contents of each.
>> If
>> > >> >> > > there
>> > >> >> > are
>> > >> >> > > multiple nav elements on a page, you would need to label them
>> to
>> > >> >> enable
>> > >> >> > the
>> > >> >> > > user to quickly jump to the one that is most relevant. In the
>> same
>> > >> >> > sense,
>> > >> >> > > wouldn't you want to label articles? Actually, I don't even
>> > >> >> > > remember
>> > >> >> if
>> > >> >> > > any screen readers provide affordances for jumping between or
>> > >> >> > > listing
>> > >> >> > > articles, per se, but, if they did, I'd think this would be
>> useful.
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:09 AM, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > >> >> > >
>> > >> >> > >> I think you mean heading, not header.
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> Headers are repeating elements at the top of something, such
>> as a
>> > >> >> page
>> > >> >> > >> header or table header.
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> The Article tag's definition is that it designates a
>> > >> >> > >> self-contained
>> > >> >> > >> portion of a larger document. It is a grouping or container
>> tag
>> > >> >> > >> that
>> > >> >> > >> encompasses, by definition, other tagged elements such as P
>> and Hx
>> > >> >> tags.
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> To me, the relationship is already explicit because the Hx
>> tag is
>> > >> >> within
>> > >> >> > >> the Article tag.
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >> â â â
>> > >> >> > >> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > >> >> > >> â â â
>> > >> >> > >> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>> > >> >> > >> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508
>> services
>> > >> >> > >> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
>> > >> >> > >> â â â
>> > >> >> > >>
>> > >> >> > >>