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Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Sun, May 06 2018 1:39PM
Subject: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
No previous message | Next message →

Hello,

I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture four times.

It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also read. except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times.

OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group" web navigation it won't be overly redundant.

But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn

From: glen walker
Date: Sun, May 06 2018 5:18PM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.

But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the doubt
and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it. In any
event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should stick with
what it does best and present the information that has been coded.

Glen

On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that was in
> The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it was getting very
> frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the Macintosh reading essentially
> the same description for each picture four times.
>
> It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of the
> figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also read.
> except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was exactly
> the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least one
> screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times.
>
> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as verbose
> though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group" web navigation it
> won't be overly redundant.
>
> But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a design
> issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should we be requiring
> our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or should the underlying HTML
> generaed by Newspapers only include alternative text if they are not using
> figure /figcaption?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>
>
> > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, May 07 2018 3:40AM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience would be far worse if they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.

But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it. In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should stick with what it does best and present the information that has been coded.

Glen

On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that was
> in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it was
> getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the Macintosh
> reading essentially the same description for each picture four times.
>
> It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of the
> figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also read.
> except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
> exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at
> least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times.
>
> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
> verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group" web
> navigation it won't be overly redundant.
>
> But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
> design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should we
> be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or should the
> underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include alternative text
> if they are not using figure /figcaption?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: glen walker
Date: Mon, May 07 2018 9:59AM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is intended for
the person that needs it and not the developer, but it also gives a
developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code sounds good. For
example, jaws will try to find a label for an input field even if the
developer didn't code one. That's bad for the developer but good for the
end user. Of course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms
but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and people think
they're good.

Glen

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to clean up
> bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart from more
> basic screen readers. The user experience would be far worse if they did
> nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> glen walker
> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>
> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the doubt
> and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it. In any
> event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should stick with
> what it does best and present the information that has been coded.
>
> Glen
>
> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that was
> > in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it was
> > getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the Macintosh
> > reading essentially the same description for each picture four times.
> >
> > It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of the
> > figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also read.
> > except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
> > exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at
> > least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times.
> >
> > OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
> > verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group" web
> > navigation it won't be overly redundant.
> >
> > But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
> > design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should we
> > be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or should the
> > underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include alternative text
> > if they are not using figure /figcaption?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Jonathan Cohn
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, May 07 2018 2:38PM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion websites. I doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and tested to achieve a good level of accessibility. Screen readers therefore have to do the best they can with the other 99%. If some developers are relying on a screen reader to do a quick test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to impair the user experience on the 99% of website where the developers didn't even test at all.

Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers should not be using screen readers to assess the level of standards compliance of their code - there are much more appropriate tools and techniques for that.

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is intended for the person that needs it and not the developer, but it also gives a developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code sounds good. For example, jaws will try to find a label for an input field even if the developer didn't code one. That's bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and people think they're good.

Glen

On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to clean
> up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart from
> more basic screen readers. The user experience would be far worse if
> they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> glen walker
> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>
> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the
> doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it.
> In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should
> stick with what it does best and present the information that has been coded.
>
> Glen
>
> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that
> > was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it
> > was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the
> > Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture four times.
> >
> > It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of
> > the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also read.
> > except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
> > exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in
> > at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times.
> >
> > OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
> > verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group"
> > web navigation it won't be overly redundant.
> >
> > But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
> > design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should
> > we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or
> > should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include
> > alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Jonathan Cohn
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 5:54AM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it does
much less guess work than, say, Jaws.



On 5/7/18, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion websites. I
> doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and tested to achieve a good
> level of accessibility. Screen readers therefore have to do the best they
> can with the other 99%. If some developers are relying on a screen reader to
> do a quick test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to impair the user
> experience on the 99% of website where the developers didn't even test at
> all.
>
> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers should not
> be using screen readers to assess the level of standards compliance of their
> code - there are much more appropriate tools and techniques for that.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen
> walker
> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is intended for
> the person that needs it and not the developer, but it also gives a
> developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code sounds good. For
> example, jaws will try to find a label for an input field even if the
> developer didn't code one. That's bad for the developer but good for the
> end user. Of course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms
> but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and people think
> they're good.
>
> Glen
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to clean
>> up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart from
>> more basic screen readers. The user experience would be far worse if
>> they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>>
>> Steve Green
>> Managing Director
>> Test Partners Ltd
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> glen walker
>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>
>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>>
>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the
>> doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it.
>> In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should
>> stick with what it does best and present the information that has been
>> coded.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that
>> > was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it
>> > was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the
>> > Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture four
>> > times.
>> >
>> > It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of
>> > the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also
>> > read.
>> > except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
>> > exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in
>> > at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four
>> > times.
>> >
>> > OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
>> > verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group"
>> > web navigation it won't be overly redundant.
>> >
>> > But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
>> > design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should
>> > we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or
>> > should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include
>> > alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Jonathan Cohn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 8:39AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I think this brings up an important point.

When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test something else?

If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure the tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they prefer to use.

A developer just installing a screen reader and listening to find out if it sounds right to the developer typically doesn't achieve either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that situation ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets a standard or provides a good user experience for those people who do rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might happen, but they would be accidental outcomes rather than intentional outcomes of the testing.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it does
much less guess work than, say, Jaws.



On 5/7/18, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion websites. I
> doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and tested to achieve a good
> level of accessibility. Screen readers therefore have to do the best they
> can with the other 99%. If some developers are relying on a screen reader to
> do a quick test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to impair the user
> experience on the 99% of website where the developers didn't even test at
> all.
>
> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers should not
> be using screen readers to assess the level of standards compliance of their
> code - there are much more appropriate tools and techniques for that.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen
> walker
> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is intended for
> the person that needs it and not the developer, but it also gives a
> developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code sounds good. For
> example, jaws will try to find a label for an input field even if the
> developer didn't code one. That's bad for the developer but good for the
> end user. Of course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms
> but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and people think
> they're good.
>
> Glen
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to clean
>> up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart from
>> more basic screen readers. The user experience would be far worse if
>> they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>>
>> Steve Green
>> Managing Director
>> Test Partners Ltd
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>> glen walker
>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>
>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>>
>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the
>> doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it.
>> In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should
>> stick with what it does best and present the information that has been
>> coded.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that
>> > was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it
>> > was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the
>> > Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture four
>> > times.
>> >
>> > It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of
>> > the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also
>> > read.
>> > except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
>> > exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in
>> > at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four
>> > times.
>> >
>> > OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
>> > verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group"
>> > web navigation it won't be overly redundant.
>> >
>> > But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
>> > design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should
>> > we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or
>> > should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include
>> > alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Jonathan Cohn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Thomas Lee McKeithan II
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 9:24AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I definitely concur with Tim!!

Respectfully,
Thomas Lee McKeithan II | Optum Technology Solutions
Electronic Accessibility Engineer, UX Design Studio (UXDS)
MD018, 6220 Old Dobbin Lane, Columbia, MD, 21045, USA

T      +1 443-896-0432
M     +1 202-276-6437
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
www.optum.com
 



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tim Harshbarger
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 10:40 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

I think this brings up an important point.

When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test something else?

If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure the tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they prefer to use.

A developer just installing a screen reader and listening to find out if it sounds right to the developer typically doesn't achieve either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that situation ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets a standard or provides a good user experience for those people who do rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might happen, but they would be accidental outcomes rather than intentional outcomes of the testing.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it does much less guess work than, say, Jaws.



On 5/7/18, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion websites.
> I doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and tested to achieve a
> good level of accessibility. Screen readers therefore have to do the
> best they can with the other 99%. If some developers are relying on a
> screen reader to do a quick test, that doesn't seem a good enough
> reason to impair the user experience on the 99% of website where the
> developers didn't even test at all.
>
> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers
> should not be using screen readers to assess the level of standards
> compliance of their code - there are much more appropriate tools and techniques for that.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> glen walker
> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is intended
> for the person that needs it and not the developer, but it also gives
> a developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code sounds good.
> For example, jaws will try to find a label for an input field even if
> the developer didn't code one. That's bad for the developer but good
> for the end user. Of course, a11y testing should be done on a variety
> of platforms but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test
> and people think they're good.
>
> Glen
>
> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to
>> clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart
>> from more basic screen readers. The user experience would be far
>> worse if they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>>
>> Steve Green
>> Managing Director
>> Test Partners Ltd
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> Of glen walker
>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>
>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>>
>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the
>> doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it.
>> In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should
>> stick with what it does best and present the information that has
>> been coded.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that
>> > was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it
>> > was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the
>> > Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture
>> > four times.
>> >
>> > It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of
>> > the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were
>> > also read.
>> > except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
>> > exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in
>> > at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read
>> > four times.
>> >
>> > OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
>> > verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group"
>> > web navigation it won't be overly redundant.
>> >
>> > But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
>> > design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should
>> > we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or
>> > should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include
>> > alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Jonathan Cohn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
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From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 3:12PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I have been following this thread with real interest.

I am working on a little portfolio site for an artist. Usually alt text
is a tough sell to someone in the visual arts, but this guy has a good
friend who is blind and is right into it.

Each image on the "Paintings" page has alt text, and also a visually
hidden description of the painting provided by the artist. I didn't want
all the back and forth of long description pages. He does not want
people who can see the paintings reading the descriptions.

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html

Does this make sense to anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way to
do this? Comments and suggestions very welcome.

Also - this is a work in progress. The "drawings" page is not ready to
go. Other stuff is still being tweaked.

thanks! Sandy



On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim Harshbarger wrote:
> I think this brings up an important point.
>
> When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test something else?
>
> If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure the tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they prefer to use.
>
> A developer just installing a screen reader and listening to find out if it sounds right to the developer typically doesn't achieve either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that situation ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets a standard or provides a good user experience for those people who do rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might happen, but they would be accidental outcomes rather than intentional outcomes of the testing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it does
> much less guess work than, say, Jaws.
>
>
>
> On 5/7/18, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion websites. I
>> doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and tested to achieve a good
>> level of accessibility. Screen readers therefore have to do the best they
>> can with the other 99%. If some developers are relying on a screen reader to
>> do a quick test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to impair the user
>> experience on the 99% of website where the developers didn't even test at
>> all.
>>
>> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers should not
>> be using screen readers to assess the level of standards compliance of their
>> code - there are much more appropriate tools and techniques for that.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen
>> walker
>> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>
>> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is intended for
>> the person that needs it and not the developer, but it also gives a
>> developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code sounds good. For
>> example, jaws will try to find a label for an input field even if the
>> developer didn't code one. That's bad for the developer but good for the
>> end user. Of course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms
>> but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and people think
>> they're good.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to clean
>>> up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them apart from
>>> more basic screen readers. The user experience would be far worse if
>>> they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>>>
>>> Steve Green
>>> Managing Director
>>> Test Partners Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
>>> glen walker
>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>>
>>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>>>
>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the
>>> doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it.
>>> In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should
>>> stick with what it does best and present the information that has been
>>> coded.
>>>
>>> Glen
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that
>>>> was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it
>>>> was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the
>>>> Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture four
>>>> times.
>>>>
>>>> It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of
>>>> the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were also
>>>> read.
>>>> except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
>>>> exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in
>>>> at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read four
>>>> times.
>>>>
>>>> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
>>>> verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group"
>>>> web navigation it won't be overly redundant.
>>>>
>>>> But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
>>>> design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should
>>>> we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or
>>>> should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include
>>>> alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 5:08PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a caption associates the image with the content allowing for references from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the user from making their own determinations. In that since alt text for art may be different from alt text for other images in that you generally don't want to describe the image but the function. With art you may want to describe the image and not express an interpretation on the screen reader or any user. I suppose an exception to this might be an art education class where you want to communicate that.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Tim Harshbarger < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

I have been following this thread with real interest.

I am working on a little portfolio site for an artist. Usually alt text is a tough sell to someone in the visual arts, but this guy has a good friend who is blind and is right into it.

Each image on the "Paintings" page has alt text, and also a visually hidden description of the painting provided by the artist. I didn't want all the back and forth of long description pages. He does not want people who can see the paintings reading the descriptions.

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html

Does this make sense to anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way to do this? Comments and suggestions very welcome.

Also - this is a work in progress. The "drawings" page is not ready to go. Other stuff is still being tweaked.

thanks! Sandy



On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim Harshbarger wrote:
> I think this brings up an important point.
>
> When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test something else?
>
> If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure the tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they prefer to use.
>
> A developer just installing a screen reader and listening to find out if it sounds right to the developer typically doesn't achieve either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that situation ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets a standard or provides a good user experience for those people who do rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might happen, but they would be accidental outcomes rather than intentional outcomes of the testing.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>
> This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it does
> much less guess work than, say, Jaws.
>
>
>
> On 5/7/18, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion websites.
>> I doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and tested to achieve
>> a good level of accessibility. Screen readers therefore have to do
>> the best they can with the other 99%. If some developers are relying
>> on a screen reader to do a quick test, that doesn't seem a good
>> enough reason to impair the user experience on the 99% of website
>> where the developers didn't even test at all.
>>
>> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers
>> should not be using screen readers to assess the level of standards
>> compliance of their code - there are much more appropriate tools and techniques for that.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>> Of glen walker
>> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>
>> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is
>> intended for the person that needs it and not the developer, but it
>> also gives a developer a false sense of accomplishment if their code
>> sounds good. For example, jaws will try to find a label for an input
>> field even if the developer didn't code one. That's bad for the
>> developer but good for the end user. Of course, a11y testing should
>> be done on a variety of platforms but there are unfortunately many
>> cases of a quick test and people think they're good.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics to
>>> clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets them
>>> apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience would be
>>> far worse if they did nothing more than present the information that has been coded.
>>>
>>> Steve Green
>>> Managing Director
>>> Test Partners Ltd
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf
>>> Of glen walker
>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
>>>
>>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design.
>>>
>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit of the
>>> doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing but overdid it.
>>> In any event, a screen reader should not have to fix it. It should
>>> stick with what it does best and present the information that has
>>> been coded.
>>>
>>> Glen
>>>
>>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I was just reading through the story about Alice's Restaurant that
>>>> was in The Boston Globe this week. While an interesting story, it
>>>> was getting very frustrating by the end with VoiceOver on the
>>>> Macintosh reading essentially the same description for each picture
>>>> four times.
>>>>
>>>> It would read once for the start of the figure once for the end of
>>>> the figure, then the alt text and the text below the picture were
>>>> also read.
>>>> except for the alt attribute on the graphic itself all the text was
>>>> exactly the same. So, our wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in
>>>> at least one screen reader for graphical descriptions to be read
>>>> four times.
>>>>
>>>> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not be as
>>>> verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh in "Group"
>>>> web navigation it won't be overly redundant.
>>>>
>>>> But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader issue or a
>>>> design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name = alt-text should
>>>> we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors to clean this up, or
>>>> should the underlying HTML generaed by Newspapers only include
>>>> alternative text if they are not using figure /figcaption?
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan Cohn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 5:20PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

hey Jonathan,

"the author doesn't want to  prevent the user from making their own
determinations" is exactly why the artist wants his descriptions hidden
from the sighted user. That's well said. It's been very interesting for
me to read these. It's given me an insight into these dreamlike images.

So, for example, the alt on one of the images is alt="Arnie's
grandfather decorating a cake"

Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium.
Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.

And here is the visually hidden text, written by the artist:
"My grandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake in
honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor
is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the
wall behind him is a Soviet propaganda poster extolling the benefits of
collective farming, a reference to his radical past. A pair of muddy
army boots betrays his desertion from the Lithuanian army."

Except for the alt none of this has any semantic tagging or ARIA labels.
It's just plain old text, either hidden or displayed. It makes sense to
me when I listen to it with Voice Over, but it would, wouldn't it?

I am wondering if it makes sense to people using a screen reader, and if
there's a better way I could do it.

Sandy




On 2018-05-08 7:08 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference > between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An >
alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a >
caption associates the image with the content allowing for references >
from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low >
vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some >
sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on >
your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the > user
from making their own determinations. In that since alt text > for art
may be different from alt text for other images in that you > generally
don't want to describe the image but the function. With > art you may
want to describe the image and not express an > interpretation on the
screen reader or any user. I suppose an > exception to this might be an
art education class where you want to > communicate that. > > Jonathan >
> Jonathan Avila Chief Accessibility Officer Level Access >
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = 703.637.8957 office > > Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog > > Looking to boost your
accessibility knowledge? Check out our free > webinars! > > The
information contained in this transmission may be attorney > privileged
and/or confidential information intended for the use of > the individual
or entity named above. If the reader of this message > is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, >
dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is >
strictly prohibited. > > -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman >
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM To: WebAIM Discussion List >
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Tim Harshbarger >
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] > [EXTERNAL]
Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... > > I have been following
this thread with real interest. > > I am working on a little portfolio
site for an artist. Usually alt > text is a tough sell to someone in the
visual arts, but this guy has > a good friend who is blind and is right
into it. > > Each image on the "Paintings" page has alt text, and also a
visually > hidden description of the painting provided by the artist. I
didn't > want all the back and forth of long description pages. He does
not > want people who can see the paintings reading the descriptions. >
> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html > > Does this make sense to
anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way > to do this? Comments and
suggestions very welcome. > > Also - this is a work in progress. The
"drawings" page is not ready > to go. Other stuff is still being
tweaked. > > thanks! Sandy > > > > On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim
Harshbarger wrote: >> I think this brings up an important point. >> >>
When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to >>
understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? >> Are
you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test >> something
else? >> >> If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure
the >> tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets
>> the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you >>
likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they >>
prefer to use. >> >> A developer just installing a screen reader and
listening to find >> out if it sounds right to the developer typically
doesn't achieve >> either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that
situation >> ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that >>
developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets >> a
standard or provides a good user experience for those people who >> do
rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might >> happen,
but they would be accidental outcomes rather than >> intentional
outcomes of the testing. -----Original Message----- >> From:
WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On >> Behalf
Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM >> To: WebAIM
Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: >> [EXTERNAL]
Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >> >> This is
what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it >> does much less
guess work than, say, Jaws. >> >> >> >> On 5/7/18, Steve Green
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>> I recently saw a statement
that there are about 1.3 billion >>> websites. I doubt if even 1% of
those have been designed and >>> tested to achieve a good level of
accessibility. Screen readers >>> therefore have to do the best they can
with the other 99%. If >>> some developers are relying on a screen
reader to do a quick >>> test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to
impair the user >>> experience on the 99% of website where the
developers didn't >>> even test at all. >>> >>> Testing with assistive
technologies is important, but developers >>> should not be using screen
readers to assess the level of >>> standards compliance of their code -
there are much more >>> appropriate tools and techniques for that. >>>
>>> Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >>>
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker >>>
Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and >>>
Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>> >>> I agree the user experience would
be worse, and the screen is >>> intended for the person that needs it
and not the developer, but >>> it also gives a developer a false sense
of accomplishment if >>> their code sounds good. For example, jaws will
try to find a >>> label for an input field even if the developer didn't
code one. >>> That's bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of
>>> course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms >>>
but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and >>> people
think they're good. >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM,
Steve Green >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>> >>>>
Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics >>>> to
clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets >>>> them
apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience >>>> would be
far worse if they did nothing more than present the >>>> information
that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Steve Green Managing Director Test
Partners Ltd >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From:
WebAIM-Forum >>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
glen walker >>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>>
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures >>>> and
Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>>> >>>> Screen readers should not have
to clean up bad design. >>>> >>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would
give them the benefit >>>> of the doubt and say they were trying to do
the right thing >>>> but overdid it. In any event, a screen reader
should not have >>>> to fix it. It should stick with what it does best
and present >>>> the information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Glen
>>>> >>>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn >>>>
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I was just
reading through the story about Alice's >>>>> Restaurant that was in The
Boston Globe this week. While an >>>>> interesting story, it was getting
very frustrating by the end >>>>> with VoiceOver on the Macintosh
reading essentially the same >>>>> description for each picture four
times. >>>>> >>>>> It would read once for the start of the figure once
for the >>>>> end of the figure, then the alt text and the text below
the >>>>> picture were also read. except for the alt attribute on the
>>>>> graphic itself all the text was exactly the same. So, our >>>>>
wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least one screen >>>>>
reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times. >>>>> >>>>> OK,
I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not >>>>> be as
verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh >>>>> in "Group"
web navigation it won't be overly redundant. >>>>> >>>>> But is this
issue essentially a Browser / screen reader >>>>> issue or a design
issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name >>>>> = alt-text should we be
requiring our Screen Reader vendors >>>>> to clean this up, or should
the underlying HTML generaed by >>>>> Newspapers only include
alternative text if they are not >>>>> using figure /figcaption? >>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan Cohn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >
subscription, visit http://list.webaim.org/ List archives at >
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
subscription, visit http://list.webaim.org/ List archives at >
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
--
Sandy

sandyfeldman.com
sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
inclusivemedia.ca

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, May 08 2018 6:09PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

I really like the artist's hidden descriptions. It's a shame they don't
want sighted users to see them. I understand not trying to influence the
observer's thoughts, but I looked at the pictures differently after reading
the descriptions (which is probably the artist's point), but I liked how I
saw them after reading the description. I would have missed out on some
things otherwise. You could have the description in a "disclosure" object,
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#disclosure, so that all users can
benefit from them.

If you still want to hide them completely from sighted users (assuming the
sighted user doesn't bring up the code inspector in the browser), I was
going to suggest using aria-describedby on the <img> tag but JAWS does not
honor it. aria-describedby is a global attribute that can be used on any
element so I'm not sure why it isn't being honored. NVDA reads it ok.
aria-describedby should be part of the "accessible description" computation
so shouldn't be affected by whether you have an alt attribute or not (since
alt is part of the "accessible name" computation).

The following worked great in NVDA. I didn't try VoiceOver.

<img src="paintings/3kids.jpg" alt="Three children" aria-describedby="desc">
<span id="desc" style="display: none">
Three children stand by the road side, not ready to cross. Discomfort and
malaise informs their expressions. Behind them, beyond the cliff side, lies
the vast ocean. In the distance a whale breaks the waves. Does this portend
the thing they are waiting for?
</span>

To me, it helped associate the description with the image itself instead of
having the description as just paragraph text after the picture.

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Wed, May 09 2018 8:13AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

hi Glen,

It is a shame the artist doesn't want the hidden descriptions available
to people who can see the paintings, but there you go.

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html

I have added  aria-describedby="desc" to the images. Sounds exactly the
same to me in Voice Over, but I am far from an expert user. It's nice to
have some kind of connection, though. It's got to be better than "this
comes next"!

thank you for your input,
Sandy


On 2018-05-08 8:09 PM, glen walker wrote:
> I really like the artist's hidden descriptions. It's a shame they > don't want sighted users to see them. I understand not trying to >
influence the observer's thoughts, but I looked at the pictures >
differently after reading the descriptions (which is probably the >
artist's point), but I liked how I saw them after reading the >
description. I would have missed out on some things otherwise. You >
could have the description in a "disclosure" object, >
https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#disclosure, so that all >
users can benefit from them. > > If you still want to hide them
completely from sighted users > (assuming the sighted user doesn't bring
up the code inspector in the > browser), I was going to suggest using
aria-describedby on the <img> > tag but JAWS does not honor it.
aria-describedby is a global > attribute that can be used on any element
so I'm not sure why it > isn't being honored. NVDA reads it ok.
aria-describedby should be > part of the "accessible description"
computation so shouldn't be > affected by whether you have an alt
attribute or not (since alt is > part of the "accessible name"
computation). > > The following worked great in NVDA. I didn't try
VoiceOver. > > <img src="paintings/3kids.jpg" alt="Three children" >
aria-describedby="desc"> <span id="desc" style="display: none"> Three >
children stand by the road side, not ready to cross. Discomfort and >
malaise informs their expressions. Behind them, beyond the cliff > side,
lies the vast ocean. In the distance a whale breaks the waves. > Does
this portend the thing they are waiting for? </span> > > To me, it
helped associate the description with the image itself > instead of
having the description as just paragraph text after the > picture.
subscription, visit http://list.webaim.org/ List archives at >
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
--
Sandy

sandyfeldman.com
sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
inclusivemedia.ca

From: glen walker
Date: Wed, May 09 2018 10:50AM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

Sounds like (no pun intended) VoiceOver and JAWS both ignore the
aria-describedby attribute on an image. I'd love to hear if anyone has a
technical explanation for this. The accessible name and accessible
description computation seems pretty clear to me that it should be honored.

https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.1/#step2

So, even though I think aria-describedby is a good way to link your
description to the image, instead of a separate piece of text, I'm not sure
you should use that solution since some users won't hear it.

Glen

On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> hi Glen,
>
> It is a shame the artist doesn't want the hidden descriptions available to
> people who can see the paintings, but there you go.
>
> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
>
> I have added aria-describedby="desc" to the images. Sounds exactly the
> same to me in Voice Over, but I am far from an expert user. It's nice to
> have some kind of connection, though. It's got to be better than "this
> comes next"!
>
> thank you for your input,
> Sandy
>
>

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Wed, May 09 2018 1:45PM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

On Macintosh the aria-describedby attribute is usually associated with the Object Help tag . The configuration of reading this is managed in the VoiceOver Utility Verbosity screen in the hints tab.

I generally find that JAWS will read aria-describedby references but only when the actual focus is on the widget not just the virtual cursor.

Best Wishes,

Jonathan Cohn

> On May 9, 2018, at 12:50 PM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Sounds like (no pun intended) VoiceOver and JAWS both ignore the
> aria-describedby attribute on an image. I'd love to hear if anyone has a
> technical explanation for this. The accessible name and accessible
> description computation seems pretty clear to me that it should be honored.
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.1/#step2
>
> So, even though I think aria-describedby is a good way to link your
> description to the image, instead of a separate piece of text, I'm not sure
> you should use that solution since some users won't hear it.
>
> Glen
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> hi Glen,
>>
>> It is a shame the artist doesn't want the hidden descriptions available to
>> people who can see the paintings, but there you go.
>>
>> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
>>
>> I have added aria-describedby="desc" to the images. Sounds exactly the
>> same to me in Voice Over, but I am far from an expert user. It's nice to
>> have some kind of connection, though. It's got to be better than "this
>> comes next"!
>>
>> thank you for your input,
>> Sandy
>>
>>
> > > >

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Wed, May 09 2018 2:51PM
Subject: Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

Jonathan, thanks. I have taken the aria-describedby off again, and it's
just plain text. I hope this works!

Sandy


On 2018-05-09 3:45 PM, Jonathan Cohn wrote:
> On Macintosh the aria-describedby attribute is usually associated with the Object Help tag . The configuration of reading this is managed in the VoiceOver Utility Verbosity screen in the hints tab.
>
> I generally find that JAWS will read aria-describedby references but only when the actual focus is on the widget not just the virtual cursor.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>> On May 9, 2018, at 12:50 PM, glen walker < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Sounds like (no pun intended) VoiceOver and JAWS both ignore the
>> aria-describedby attribute on an image. I'd love to hear if anyone has a
>> technical explanation for this. The accessible name and accessible
>> description computation seems pretty clear to me that it should be honored.
>>
>> https://www.w3.org/TR/accname-1.1/#step2
>>
>> So, even though I think aria-describedby is a good way to link your
>> description to the image, instead of a separate piece of text, I'm not sure
>> you should use that solution since some users won't hear it.
>>
>> Glen
>>
>> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> hi Glen,
>>>
>>> It is a shame the artist doesn't want the hidden descriptions available to
>>> people who can see the paintings, but there you go.
>>>
>>> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
>>>
>>> I have added aria-describedby="desc" to the images. Sounds exactly the
>>> same to me in Voice Over, but I am far from an expert user. It's nice to
>>> have some kind of connection, though. It's got to be better than "this
>>> comes next"!
>>>
>>> thank you for your input,
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>>
>> >> >> >> > > > > --
Sandy

sandyfeldman.com
sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
inclusivemedia.ca

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, May 10 2018 1:13PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | Next message →

* Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium. Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.

Yes, I think this acts like a caption – so a figure and figure caption would be appropriate in my opinion.

Regarding the details, the hidden text seems to work well for screen reader users. Users with low vision are likely to miss details such as the accordion or the time on the clock, etc. and could also benefit from these. How you expose the details to the low vision user without giving them to all users would be tricky. Even with the hidden text example it wouldn't surprise me if that text shoed up in search results or something else. In fact it does, the below is what is seen in google when I search for some of the text

paintings. Arnie Lipsey, artist and filmmaker - I need a coffee<http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html>;
ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
1.
Paintings. Arnie's grandfather decorating a cake. The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas. Mygrandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake in honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the wall behind him is ...

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website<http://www.levelaccess.com/>; | Twitter<https://twitter.com/LevelAccessA11y> | Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/LevelAccessA11y/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/company/level-access> | Blog<http://www.levelaccess.com/blog/>;

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!<https://www.levelaccess.com/compliance-resources/webinars/>

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

From: Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 7:21 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

hey Jonathan,

"the author doesn't want to prevent the user from making their own determinations" is exactly why the artist wants his descriptions hidden from the sighted user. That's well said. It's been very interesting for me to read these. It's given me an insight into these dreamlike images.

So, for example, the alt on one of the images is alt="Arnie's grandfather decorating a cake"

Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium. Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.

And here is the visually hidden text, written by the artist:
"My grandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake in honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the wall behind him is a Soviet propaganda poster extolling the benefits of collective farming, a reference to his radical past. A pair of muddy army boots betrays his desertion from the Lithuanian army."

Except for the alt none of this has any semantic tagging or ARIA labels. It's just plain old text, either hidden or displayed. It makes sense to me when I listen to it with Voice Over, but it would, wouldn't it?

I am wondering if it makes sense to people using a screen reader, and if there's a better way I could do it.

Sandy




On 2018-05-08 7:08 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference > between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An > alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a > caption associates the image with the content allowing for references > from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low > vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some > sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on > your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the > user from making their own determinations. In that since alt text > for art may be different from alt text for other images in that you > generally don't want to describe the image but the function. With > art you may want to describe the image and not express an > interpretation on the screen reader or any user. I suppose an > exception to this might be an art education class where you want to > communicate that. > > Jonathan > > Jonathan Avila Chief Accessibility Officer Level Access > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 703.637.8957 office > > Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog > > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free > webinars! > > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > > -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman > Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM To: WebAIM Discussion List > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Tim Harshbarger > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] > [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... > > I have been following this thread with real interest. > > I am working on a little portfolio site for an artist. Usually alt > text is a tough sell to someone in the visual arts, but this guy has > a good friend who is blind and is right into it. > > Each image on the "Paintings" page has alt text, and also a visually > hidden description of the painting provided by the artist. I didn't > want all the back and forth of long description pages. He does not > want people who can see the paintings reading the descriptions. > > http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html > > Does this make sense to anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way > to do this? Comments and suggestions very welcome. > > Also - this is a work in progress. The "drawings" page is not ready > to go. Other stuff is still being tweaked. > > thanks! Sandy > > > > On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim Harshbarger wrote: >> I think this brings up an important point. >> >> When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to >> understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? >> Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test >> something else? >> >> If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure the >> tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets >> the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you >> likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they >> prefer to use. >> >> A developer just installing a screen reader and listening to find >> out if it sounds right to the developer typically doesn't achieve >> either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that situation >> ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that >> developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets >> a standard or provides a good user experience for those people who >> do rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might >> happen, but they would be accidental outcomes rather than >> intentional outcomes of the testing. -----Original Message----- >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On >> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: >> [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >> >> This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it >> does much less guess work than, say, Jaws. >> >> >> >> On 5/7/18, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion >>> websites. I doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and >>> tested to achieve a good level of accessibility. Screen readers >>> therefore have to do the best they can with the other 99%. If >>> some developers are relying on a screen reader to do a quick >>> test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to impair the user >>> experience on the 99% of website where the developers didn't >>> even test at all. >>> >>> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers >>> should not be using screen readers to assess the level of >>> standards compliance of their code - there are much more >>> appropriate tools and techniques for that. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker >>> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and >>> Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>> >>> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is >>> intended for the person that needs it and not the developer, but >>> it also gives a developer a false sense of accomplishment if >>> their code sounds good. For example, jaws will try to find a >>> label for an input field even if the developer didn't code one. >>> That's bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of >>> course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms >>> but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and >>> people think they're good. >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>> >>>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics >>>> to clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets >>>> them apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience >>>> would be far worse if they did nothing more than present the >>>> information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Steve Green Managing Director Test Partners Ltd >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker >>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures >>>> and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>>> >>>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design. >>>> >>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit >>>> of the doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing >>>> but overdid it. In any event, a screen reader should not have >>>> to fix it. It should stick with what it does best and present >>>> the information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Glen >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn >>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ><mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I was just reading through the story about Alice's >>>>> Restaurant that was in The Boston Globe this week. While an >>>>> interesting story, it was getting very frustrating by the end >>>>> with VoiceOver on the Macintosh reading essentially the same >>>>> description for each picture four times. >>>>> >>>>> It would read once for the start of the figure once for the >>>>> end of the figure, then the alt text and the text below the >>>>> picture were also read. except for the alt attribute on the >>>>> graphic itself all the text was exactly the same. So, our >>>>> wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least one screen >>>>> reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times. >>>>> >>>>> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not >>>>> be as verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh >>>>> in "Group" web navigation it won't be overly redundant. >>>>> >>>>> But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader >>>>> issue or a design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name >>>>> = alt-text should we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors >>>>> to clean this up, or should the underlying HTML generaed by >>>>> Newspapers only include alternative text if they are not >>>>> using figure /figcaption? >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan Cohn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > --
Sandy

sandyfeldman.com
sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
inclusivemedia.ca

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: Thu, May 10 2018 2:14PM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
← Previous message | No next message

Jonathan,

I have put together a test page with one image using figcaption.

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/figcaptiontest.html

Listening to it with Voice Over, I hear everything twice. Again, I not a
very skilled screen reader user. I find I like the less semantic page better

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html

Do other people hear what I do? What do you think?

thanks! Sandy


On 2018-05-10 3:13 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
> * Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and
> medium. Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
> The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.
>
> Yes, I think this acts like a caption – so a figure and figure caption
> would be appropriate in my opinion.
>
> Regarding the details, the hidden text seems to work well for screen
> reader users.  Users with low vision are likely to miss details such
> as the accordion or the time on the clock, etc. and could also benefit
> from these.  How you expose the details to the low vision user without
> giving them to all users would be tricky.   Even with the hidden text
> example it wouldn't surprise me if that text shoed up in search
> results or something else.  In fact it does, the below is what is seen
> in google when I search for some of the text
>
> paintings. Arnie Lipsey, artist and filmmaker - I need a coffee
> <http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html>;
>
> ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
>
> 1.
>
> Paintings. *Arnie's grandfather* decorating a cake. The Pastry Chef.
> 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas. My*grandfather* applies the finishing
> touches to a crown-shaped cake in honour of George the fifth's
> coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor is an
> *accordion* reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the
> wall behind him is ...
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> *Level Access*
>
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
>
> Website <http://www.levelaccess.com/>; | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/LevelAccessA11y> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/LevelAccessA11y/> | LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/level-access> | Blog
> <http://www.levelaccess.com/blog/>;
>
> /Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
> webinars!/ <https://www.levelaccess.com/compliance-resources/webinars/>
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited.
>
> *From:*Sandy Feldman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 8, 2018 7:21 PM
> *To:* WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Jonathan
> Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> *Subject:* Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and
> Alt-text oh my...
>
> hey Jonathan,
>
> "the author doesn't want to  prevent the user from making their own
> determinations" is exactly why the artist wants his descriptions
> hidden from the sighted user. That's well said. It's been very
> interesting for me to read these. It's given me an insight into these
> dreamlike images.
>
> So, for example, the alt on one of the images is alt="Arnie's
> grandfather decorating a cake"
>
> Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium.
> Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
> The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.
>
> And here is the visually hidden text, written by the artist:
> "My grandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake
> in honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the
> floor is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit.
> On the wall behind him is a Soviet propaganda poster extolling the
> benefits of collective farming, a reference to his radical past. A
> pair of muddy army boots betrays his desertion from the Lithuanian army."
>
> Except for the alt none of this has any semantic tagging or ARIA
> labels. It's just plain old text, either hidden or displayed. It makes
> sense to me when I listen to it with Voice Over, but it would,
> wouldn't it?
>
> I am wondering if it makes sense to people using a screen reader, and
> if there's a better way I could do it.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-05-08 7:08 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> > I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference >
> between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An >
> alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a >
> caption associates the image with the content allowing for references
> > from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low >
> vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some >
> sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on >
> your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the >
> user from making their own determinations. In that since alt text >
> for art may be different from alt text for other images in that you >
> generally don't want to describe the image but the function. With >
> art you may want to describe the image and not express an >
> interpretation on the screen reader or any user. I suppose an >
> exception to this might be an art education class where you want to >
> communicate that. > > Jonathan > > Jonathan Avila Chief Accessibility
> Officer Level Access > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > 703.637.8957 office > > Visit us
> online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog > > Looking to
> boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free > webinars! > >
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney >
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of >
> the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message >
> is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, >
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is >
> strictly prohibited. > > -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum
> > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sandy
> Feldman > Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM To: WebAIM Discussion
> List > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Tim Harshbarger >
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] >
> [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... > > I have
> been following this thread with real interest. > > I am working on a
> little portfolio site for an artist. Usually alt > text is a tough
> sell to someone in the visual arts, but this guy has > a good friend
> who is blind and is right into it. > > Each image on the "Paintings"
> page has alt text, and also a visually > hidden description of the
> painting provided by the artist. I didn't > want all the back and
> forth of long description pages. He does not > want people who can see
> the paintings reading the descriptions. > >
> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html > > Does this make sense to
> anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way > to do this? Comments and
> suggestions very welcome. > > Also - this is a work in progress. The
> "drawings" page is not ready > to go. Other stuff is still being
> tweaked. > > thanks! Sandy > > > > On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim
> Harshbarger wrote: >> I think this brings up an important point. >> >>
> When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to >>
> understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? >>
> Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test >>
> something else? >> >> If you are testing against a standard, you want
> to make sure the >> tools and process you use actually tells you if
> something meets >> the standard. If you are focused on user
> experience, then you >> likely want tests that involve actual users
> using whatever AT they >> prefer to use. >> >> A developer just
> installing a screen reader and listening to find >> out if it sounds
> right to the developer typically doesn't achieve >> either of those
> goals. If anything, the goal in that situation >> ends up being to
> ensure the site sounds good to that >> developer--which ends up likely
> creating a site that neither meets >> a standard or provides a good
> user experience for those people who >> do rely on a screen reader.
> Well, I suppose those things might >> happen, but they would be
> accidental outcomes rather than >> intentional outcomes of the
> testing. -----Original Message----- >> From: WebAIM-Forum
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On >> Behalf Of Birkir
> R. Gunnarsson Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM >> To: WebAIM
> Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > Subject: >> [EXTERNAL] Re:
> [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >> >> This is what
> makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it >> does much less
> guess work than, say, Jaws. >> >> >> >> On 5/7/18, Steve Green
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>> I recently saw a
> statement that there are about 1.3 billion >>> websites. I doubt if
> even 1% of those have been designed and >>> tested to achieve a good
> level of accessibility. Screen readers >>> therefore have to do the
> best they can with the other 99%. If >>> some developers are relying
> on a screen reader to do a quick >>> test, that doesn't seem a good
> enough reason to impair the user >>> experience on the 99% of website
> where the developers didn't >>> even test at all. >>> >>> Testing with
> assistive technologies is important, but developers >>> should not be
> using screen readers to assess the level of >>> standards compliance
> of their code - there are much more >>> appropriate tools and
> techniques for that. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
> >>> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and >>> Captions and Alt-text oh my...
> >>> >>> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is
> >>> intended for the person that needs it and not the developer, but
> >>> it also gives a developer a false sense of accomplishment if >>>
> their code sounds good. For example, jaws will try to find a >>> label
> for an input field even if the developer didn't code one. >>> That's
> bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of >>> course, a11y
> testing should be done on a variety of platforms >>> but there are
> unfortunately many cases of a quick test and >>> people think they're
> good. >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
> >>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>> >>>>
> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics >>>> to
> clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets >>>> them
> apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience >>>> would
> be far worse if they did nothing more than present the >>>>
> information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Steve Green Managing
> Director Test Partners Ltd >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum >>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of glen walker
> >>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>>
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures >>>> and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
> >>>> >>>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design. >>>>
> >>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit >>>>
> of the doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing >>>> but
> overdid it. In any event, a screen reader should not have >>>> to fix
> it. It should stick with what it does best and present >>>> the
> information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Glen >>>> >>>> On Sun, May
> 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn >>>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I
> was just reading through the story about Alice's >>>>> Restaurant that
> was in The Boston Globe this week. While an >>>>> interesting story,
> it was getting very frustrating by the end >>>>> with VoiceOver on the
> Macintosh reading essentially the same >>>>> description for each
> picture four times. >>>>> >>>>> It would read once for the start of
> the figure once for the >>>>> end of the figure, then the alt text and
> the text below the >>>>> picture were also read. except for the alt
> attribute on the >>>>> graphic itself all the text was exactly the
> same. So, our >>>>> wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least
> one screen >>>>> reader for graphical descriptions to be read four
> times. >>>>> >>>>> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that
> would not >>>>> be as verbose though this In fact, if one puts the
> Macintosh >>>>> in "Group" web navigation it won't be overly
> redundant. >>>>> >>>>> But is this issue essentially a Browser /
> screen reader >>>>> issue or a design issue. I.E. if figure name > caption name >>>>> = alt-text should we be requiring our Screen Reader
> vendors >>>>> to clean this up, or should the underlying HTML generaed
> by >>>>> Newspapers only include alternative text if they are not
> >>>>> using figure /figcaption? >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>>
> Jonathan Cohn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >
> > subscription, visit http://list.webaim.org/ List archives at >
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> <http://webaim.org/discussion/archives>; > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > >
> > subscription, visit http://list.webaim.org/ List archives at >
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> <http://webaim.org/discussion/archives>; > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> --
> Sandy
>
> sandyfeldman.com
> sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
> ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
> inclusivemedia.ca
>

--
Sandy

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