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From: Jukka Korpela
Date: Mon, Oct 07 2002 11:27PM
Subject: RE: using list structural markup appropriately
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Leo Smith wrote:

> This is a very interesting article:
>
> http://www.alistapart.com/stories/taminglists/

Do you mean this:
font: 11px/1.5 Verdana, sans-serif;
in the style sheet used, or the content of the article itself? :-)

Generally, I think the credibility of promoting accessibility is seriously
threatened by accessibility problems on pages that promote accessibility.
(It is true that style sheets, or font size settings in particular, can be
overridden by users. But it's certainly more difficult to most people than
just configuring a browser to use a comfortable font size, as a one-time
effort.)

The article seems to say, basically, that as support to CSS has got better,
there's no reason any more to use various tricks in HTML (as opposite to
logical <ul> or <ol> markup) to get the desired appearance of lists. Well,
that's mostly true. But control freaks will keep noting CSS caveats,
including the fact that CSS can be disabled. And people who always used list
markup for lists won't be affected much, except that we might consider
whether we'd like to tune the appearance, now that it can be done
(relatively) safely.

On the other hand, what I find most relevant in list appearance is none of
the issues in the article (unless I missed something in my quick glimpsing
over it) but the vertical spacing between list items. The spacing affects
the visual readability and should generally be small for small items
(typically less than one line) and larger for lists where the items are
several lines long, to make them visually more separate.

And I can't help noting that the article uses right double angle quotes,
which are quotation marks in several languages, as list bullets in some
examples. I don't see the point; using images (via list-style-image) is more
widely supported and more flexible, letting us use e.g. a real arrow, not a
quotation mark that is supposed to look like an arrow.

--
Jukka Korpela, senior adviser
TIEKE Finnish Information Society Development Centre
http://www.tieke.fi/
Diffuse Business Guide to Web Accessibility and Design for All:
http://www.diffuse.org/accessibility.html


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From: Leo Smith
Date: Wed, Oct 09 2002 6:07AM
Subject: RE: using list structural markup appropriately
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Jukka,

I think the overall message of the article is provocative and is a
good one. I am sure, as you have so diligently demonstated, that it
is possible to take to task a number of details in the prose.
http://www.alistapart.com/stories/taminglists/

I am choosing, instead, to look at the bigger picture here: that
designers and developers have tended to avoid the most
appropriate structural markup at times as they are loath to accept
the resulting visual layout. I think the article does a good job of
demonstrating the fact that appropriate structural markup can be
used, and the desired visual layout still be achieved, in this case
with lists, especially as they pertain to navigation lists.

> Do you mean this:
> font: 11px/1.5 Verdana, sans-serif;
> in the style sheet used, or the content of the article itself? :-)

I'll let you figure that one out for yourself ;)

> Generally, I think the credibility of promoting accessibility is
> seriously threatened by accessibility problems on pages that promote
> accessibility.

The article wasn't directly promoting accessibility, but appropriate
structural markup. There is some implicit association here, which
is why I post the link to this list.

(It is true that style sheets, or font size settings in
> particular, can be overridden by users. But it's certainly more
> difficult to most people than just configuring a browser to use a
> comfortable font size, as a one-time effort.)

Font size issues have been discussed on this list, and on many
other lists, and since it *really* wasn't the focus of the article, I am
not going to enter that realm in this posting.
>
> The article seems to say, basically, that as support to CSS has got
> better, there's no reason any more to use various tricks in HTML (as
> opposite to logical <ul> or <ol> markup) to get the desired appearance
> of lists. Well, that's mostly true.

EXACTLY!

But control freaks will keep
> noting CSS caveats, including the fact that CSS can be disabled.

So what? How does that have any bearing on this article? Some
(many) people, despite hearing or reading about Web accessibility,
will contiunue to not make their sites accessible. So we should
stop blowing our horn?

And
> people who always used list markup for lists won't be affected much,
> except that we might consider whether we'd like to tune the
> appearance, now that it can be done (relatively) safely.

The thing I found most provocative in the article was in relation to
lists of links/navigation menus, and how these are rarely marked up
structurally as list elements.

>
> On the other hand, what I find most relevant in list appearance is
> none of the issues in the article (unless I missed something in my
> quick glimpsing over it) but the vertical spacing between list items.
> The spacing affects the visual readability and should generally be
> small for small items (typically less than one line) and larger for
> lists where the items are several lines long, to make them visually
> more separate.

You are right, it doesn't, although if we follow your assessment of
when we should create more vertical spacing and when we should
create less, then I am sure we can adapt our style rules to
accommodate that.

> And I can't help noting that the article uses right double angle
> quotes, which are quotation marks in several languages, as list
> bullets in some examples. I don't see the point; using images (via
> list-style-image) is more widely supported and more flexible, letting
> us use e.g. a real arrow, not a quotation mark that is supposed to
> look like an arrow.

If a double arrow isn't a quotation mark in the specified language
that the page is written in, then this isn't an issue, although I am
not necessarily advocating the use of them personally in this
context.

Leo.




Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774


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