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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Dona Patrick
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:17AM
Subject: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
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Good Morning,

I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.

For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that define
the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me to
the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the definition. I
have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
impossible to fix because of the software they are using.

Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous text
from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read for
an image. This seems wrong to me.

Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
accessibility?

Thanks,

Dona

From:
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:27AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,

In my opinion if you access this e-Learning courses via web (web browser)
they should be treated like websites/webapplications in terms of
accessibility check.

Do your developers suggest how you should treat them? Like what?

Regards
---
Mikołaj Rotnicki


wt., 23 paź 2018 o 16:18 Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > napisał(a):

> Good Morning,
>
> I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
> e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
> have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
> back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.
>
> For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that define
> the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me to
> the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the definition. I
> have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
> impossible to fix because of the software they are using.
>
> Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous text
> from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
> text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read for
> an image. This seems wrong to me.
>
> Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
> accessibility?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dona
> > > > >

From: Steve Green
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:32AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | Next message →

The developer is wrong - you should treat e-learning courses the same as any other website or web-based application unless there is a contract or requirements document that specifies otherwise. As such, there should not be any resources specifically for testing e-learning courses.

When assessing the success criteria, it's irrelevant whether non-compliances can be fixed or not - a failure is a failure.

In your example of the definition, it's not obvious to me that this is necessarily a "reading order" non-compliance, although it might be.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Dona Patrick
Sent: 23 October 2018 15:18
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed

Good Morning,

I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.

For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that define the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me to the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the definition. I have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is impossible to fix because of the software they are using.

Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous text from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read for an image. This seems wrong to me.

Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for accessibility?

Thanks,

Dona

From: Dona Patrick
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:33AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | Next message →

Mikolaj,

Thanks for your reply.

They say to treat them like e-learning courses.

Dona

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:27 AM Mikołaj Rotnicki < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> In my opinion if you access this e-Learning courses via web (web browser)
> they should be treated like websites/webapplications in terms of
> accessibility check.
>
> Do your developers suggest how you should treat them? Like what?
>
> Regards
> ---
> Mikołaj Rotnicki
>
>
> wt., 23 paź 2018 o 16:18 Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > napisał(a):
>
> > Good Morning,
> >
> > I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
> > e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
> > have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
> > back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.
> >
> > For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that define
> > the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me to
> > the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the definition.
> I
> > have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
> > impossible to fix because of the software they are using.
> >
> > Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous text
> > from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
> > text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read
> for
> > an image. This seems wrong to me.
> >
> > Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
> > accessibility?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dona
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:37AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I concur. Unless the course is software that you install on your computer,
it would be treated as a web application. Even if the course is an install,
I'd argue most of the things that you need to do are identical anyway, such
as alt text, color contrast, and focus management. Of course things like
ARIA wouldn't be applicable

Ryan E. Benson

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 10:27 Mikołaj Rotnicki < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> In my opinion if you access this e-Learning courses via web (web browser)
> they should be treated like websites/webapplications in terms of
> accessibility check.
>
> Do your developers suggest how you should treat them? Like what?
>
> Regards
> ---
> Mikołaj Rotnicki
>
>
> wt., 23 paź 2018 o 16:18 Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > napisał(a):
>
> > Good Morning,
> >
> > I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
> > e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
> > have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
> > back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.
> >
> > For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that define
> > the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me to
> > the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the definition.
> I
> > have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
> > impossible to fix because of the software they are using.
> >
> > Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous text
> > from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
> > text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read
> for
> > an image. This seems wrong to me.
> >
> > Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
> > accessibility?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dona
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Haim Roman
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:50AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm new to accessibility.

This thread -- and especially Ryan's answer -- brings up a good question:
when testing accessibility, do we really care whether we're talking about
HTML-based or some other GUI tool?

Regarding the developers' attitude -- Steve is correct: if it's not
accessible, it's not accessible. Assuming you were asked by the manager
rather than the developers, report your findings. The developers can then
legitimately report to their manager that some of the points will require
huge changes to fix (e.g., changing the software they use). Managers are
paid to resolve dilemmas like this.

Howard (Haim) Roman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = -- 052-8-592-599 -- חיים רומן
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haimroman



On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:37 PM Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> I concur. Unless the course is software that you install on your computer,
> it would be treated as a web application. Even if the course is an install,
> I'd argue most of the things that you need to do are identical anyway, such
> as alt text, color contrast, and focus management. Of course things like
> ARIA wouldn't be applicable
>
> Ryan E. Benson
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 10:27 Mikołaj Rotnicki < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > In my opinion if you access this e-Learning courses via web (web browser)
> > they should be treated like websites/webapplications in terms of
> > accessibility check.
> >
> > Do your developers suggest how you should treat them? Like what?
> >
> > Regards
> > ---
> > Mikołaj Rotnicki
> >
> >
> > wt., 23 paź 2018 o 16:18 Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > napisał(a):
> >
> > > Good Morning,
> > >
> > > I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
> > > e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
> > > have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
> > > back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.
> > >
> > > For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that
> define
> > > the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me
> to
> > > the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the
> definition.
> > I
> > > have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
> > > impossible to fix because of the software they are using.
> > >
> > > Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous
> text
> > > from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
> > > text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read
> > for
> > > an image. This seems wrong to me.
> > >
> > > Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
> > > accessibility?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Dona
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 8:50AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | Next message →

A large number of the more complex training courses that I have viewed use Collaborate and/or Animate from Adobe to create Power Point like slides that have any item spoken. These courses tend to be usable with a little effort by keyboards only users, but certainly are not friendly to the screen reader experience. Does anybody have suggested tools or techniques for making e-learning meet WCAG AA criteria?

Need to have the following features:
1. Speaker with closed captioning optional.
2. Animations with descriptive text that is read by the screen reader or an audio track and is synchronized with the animation. U"User moves pointer to the red button labeled block and clicks it. He then enters users and presses return."
3. Ability to simulate a small portion of computer interactions so that tests of knowledge can be performed.

Thanks,

Jonathan

> On Oct 23, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Mikolaj,
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> They say to treat them like e-learning courses.
>
> Dona
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:27 AM Mikołaj Rotnicki < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> In my opinion if you access this e-Learning courses via web (web browser)
>> they should be treated like websites/webapplications in terms of
>> accessibility check.
>>
>> Do your developers suggest how you should treat them? Like what?
>>
>> Regards
>> ---
>> Mikołaj Rotnicki
>>
>>
>> wt., 23 paź 2018 o 16:18 Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > napisał(a):
>>
>>> Good Morning,
>>>
>>> I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
>>> e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
>>> have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
>>> back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.
>>>
>>> For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that define
>>> the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me to
>>> the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the definition.
>> I
>>> have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
>>> impossible to fix because of the software they are using.
>>>
>>> Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous text
>>> from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
>>> text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read
>> for
>>> an image. This seems wrong to me.
>>>
>>> Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
>>> accessibility?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Dona
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > >

From: Andre Polykanine
Date: Tue, Oct 23 2018 11:55AM
Subject: Re: E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed
← Previous message | No next message

Hello Haim,

> when testing accessibility, do we really care whether we're talking about
> HTML-based or some other GUI tool?

Definitely we do. Navigating a web page and, say, a Windows app are two
different things, from a screen reader perspective. On web pages you
have quick nav keys, in Windows dialogs you have Alt+something quick
access keys; on web pages you arrow and tab (oh well, not again about
that!), in Windows dialogs you mostly tab; a Windows GUI app ideally
should have a menu or its equivalent; and so on, and so forth. So yes,
as these are totally different kinds of experience, we do care when
testing for accessibility. There are lots of common elements (edit
boxes, radio buttons, combo boxes, recently trees, context menus,
multi-tab layouts), but lots of things are completely different.


--
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: menelion_elensule
Twitter (English only): @AndrePolykanine


------------ Original message ------------
From: Haim Roman < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date created: , 5:50:41 PM
Subject: [WebAIM] E-Learning accessibility testing -- resources needed


I'm new to accessibility.

This thread -- and especially Ryan's answer -- brings up a good question:
when testing accessibility, do we really care whether we're talking about
HTML-based or some other GUI tool?

Regarding the developers' attitude -- Steve is correct: if it's not
accessible, it's not accessible. Assuming you were asked by the manager
rather than the developers, report your findings. The developers can then
legitimately report to their manager that some of the points will require
huge changes to fix (e.g., changing the software they use). Managers are
paid to resolve dilemmas like this.

Howard (Haim) Roman -- = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = -- 052-8-592-599 -- חיים רומן
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/haimroman



On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:37 PM Ryan E. Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> I concur. Unless the course is software that you install on your computer,
> it would be treated as a web application. Even if the course is an install,
> I'd argue most of the things that you need to do are identical anyway, such
> as alt text, color contrast, and focus management. Of course things like
> ARIA wouldn't be applicable
>
> Ryan E. Benson
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 10:27 Mikołaj Rotnicki < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > In my opinion if you access this e-Learning courses via web (web browser)
> > they should be treated like websites/webapplications in terms of
> > accessibility check.
> >
> > Do your developers suggest how you should treat them? Like what?
> >
> > Regards
> > ---
> > Mikołaj Rotnicki
> >
> >
> > wt., 23 paź 2018 o 16:18 Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > napisał(a):
> >
> > > Good Morning,
> > >
> > > I'm being asked, more and more often, to test the accessibility of
> > > e-learning courses. I've been treating them like Web applications which
> > > have turned up many accessibility issues but the developers are pushing
> > > back saying I cannot treat them like Web sites or applications.
> > >
> > > For example one module has links that open small HTML windows that
> define
> > > the word that was the link. I'd expect the next down arrow to take me
> to
> > > the definition, but it takes a few down arrows to get to the
> definition.
> > I
> > > have failed this for "reading order". The developer tells me that it is
> > > impossible to fix because of the software they are using.
> > >
> > > Another example is the fact that there is no way to hide extraneous
> text
> > > from a screen reader while using the arrow keys. So an image might have
> > > text which is read out of context after or before the alt text is read
> > for
> > > an image. This seems wrong to me.
> > >
> > > Can anyone provide me a resource for how to test e-learning courses for
> > > accessibility?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Dona
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >