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Thread: Keyboard focus only

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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: David Feld
Date: Tue, Feb 05 2019 3:17PM
Subject: Keyboard focus only
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Forgive me if this has already been discussed -- I scanned the archives and didn't see it: What are your general thoughts on applying focus only when keyboard use is detected? Paul Adam (who I've seen on this list) made a demo:

[ http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html | http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html ]

In other words, mouse users would never see the focus. At first blush, this seems like a good way to make both keyboard users and web designers happy. Am I missing something?

David

David Feld
Technical Director, Interactive Services
Savannah College of Art and Design®

[ mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] - [ http://www.scad.edu/ | www.scad.edu ]

From: glen walker
Date: Tue, Feb 05 2019 4:13PM
Subject: Re: Keyboard focus only
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From a WCAG perspective, it's fine. "2.4.7 Focus Visible" specifically
says keyboard interactions, so if there is no keyboard focus indicator upon
mouse use, that's ok.

From a UX perspective, it would probably require user testing with your
particular site. We can't really say, generically, that no indicator for
mouse users is always good.

Glen


On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 3:17 PM David Feld < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Forgive me if this has already been discussed -- I scanned the archives
> and didn't see it: What are your general thoughts on applying focus only
> when keyboard use is detected? Paul Adam (who I've seen on this list) made
> a demo:
>
> [ http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html |
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html ]
>
> In other words, mouse users would never see the focus. At first blush,
> this seems like a good way to make both keyboard users and web designers
> happy. Am I missing something?
>
> David
>
> David Feld
> Technical Director, Interactive Services
> Savannah College of Art and Design®
>
> [ mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] - [ http://www.scad.edu/ |
> www.scad.edu ]
> > > > >

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Tue, Feb 05 2019 6:17PM
Subject: Re: Keyboard focus only
← Previous message | Next message →

> What are your general thoughts on applying focus only when keyboard use is detected?

My concern is for users such as low vision users who switch back and forth between using the mouse and keyboard for navigation. There are cases where the user may use the keyboard and then the mouse and then may expect to take up where the keyboard was. Similar issue may happen for alternative input users as well who may switch between speech recognition and some other tool such as eye tracking. My preference would be to give the user control if keeping the keyboard focus is absolutely not possible. There was a discussion on github in the WICG https://github.com/WICG/focus-visible/issues/128

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila, CPWA
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Feld
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 5:18 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Keyboard focus only

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


Forgive me if this has already been discussed -- I scanned the archives and didn't see it: What are your general thoughts on applying focus only when keyboard use is detected? Paul Adam (who I've seen on this list) made a demo:

[ http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html | http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html ]

In other words, mouse users would never see the focus. At first blush, this seems like a good way to make both keyboard users and web designers happy. Am I missing something?

David

David Feld
Technical Director, Interactive Services Savannah College of Art and Design®

[ mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] - [ http://www.scad.edu/ | www.scad.edu ]

From: David Feld
Date: Wed, Feb 06 2019 7:06AM
Subject: Re: Keyboard focus only
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Thanks, Jonathan. You're right, I didn't consider the scenario of switching back and forth. Good call.

David


From: "Jonathan Avila" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:17:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard focus only

> What are your general thoughts on applying focus only when keyboard use is detected?

My concern is for users such as low vision users who switch back and forth between using the mouse and keyboard for navigation. There are cases where the user may use the keyboard and then the mouse and then may expect to take up where the keyboard was. Similar issue may happen for alternative input users as well who may switch between speech recognition and some other tool such as eye tracking. My preference would be to give the user control if keeping the keyboard focus is absolutely not possible. There was a discussion on github in the WICG https://github.com/WICG/focus-visible/issues/128

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila, CPWA
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog

Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!

The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of David Feld
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 5:18 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] Keyboard focus only

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


Forgive me if this has already been discussed -- I scanned the archives and didn't see it: What are your general thoughts on applying focus only when keyboard use is detected? Paul Adam (who I've seen on this list) made a demo:

[ http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html | http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html ]

In other words, mouse users would never see the focus. At first blush, this seems like a good way to make both keyboard users and web designers happy. Am I missing something?

David

David Feld
Technical Director, Interactive Services Savannah College of Art and Design®

[ mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] - [ http://www.scad.edu/ | www.scad.edu ]

From: Mallory
Date: Mon, Feb 11 2019 4:56AM
Subject: Re: Keyboard focus only
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I've been using 2 lines of JavaScript to hide huge/obvious focus rings from mouse users for some time now.

Users can switch input modes whenever they want to.

The issue with it is (besides if user testing showed sighted pointer-users feel lost without seeing a focus which belongs to the keyboard) is that it listens for `mouseup` and `keyup` events (styles default to keyboard meaning if no JS or no mouse events, keyboard focus styles show).

It has occurred to me that there very well could be some setup where someone is acting like a sighted keyboard user and moving a keyboard-focus within the user agent but is not actually triggering "key-" events, though I don't know of one out of my head (I'm leaving touch alone, since they're weird and inconsistent in my testing, esp on desktop browsers on touchy-laptops/monitors). Even saying "press [somekey]" in Dragon triggers key events. What about switch control? I don't know, though I thought the various switch control programs out there overlayed their own focus styles...

Lots of uncertainty but this has allowed me, as a bottom-rung front-end developer, to incorporate obvious visible focus styles for keyboard users when higher-rung designers and clients viewing demos complained about "people click the button and wonder why it looks funny/ugly."

cheers,
Mallory

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, at 3:07 PM, David Feld wrote:
> Thanks, Jonathan. You're right, I didn't consider the scenario of
> switching back and forth. Good call.
>
> David
>
>
> From: "Jonathan Avila" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 8:17:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard focus only
>
> > What are your general thoughts on applying focus only when keyboard use is detected?
>
> My concern is for users such as low vision users who switch back and
> forth between using the mouse and keyboard for navigation. There are
> cases where the user may use the keyboard and then the mouse and then
> may expect to take up where the keyboard was. Similar issue may happen
> for alternative input users as well who may switch between speech
> recognition and some other tool such as eye tracking. My preference
> would be to give the user control if keeping the keyboard focus is
> absolutely not possible. There was a discussion on github in the WICG
> https://github.com/WICG/focus-visible/issues/128
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila, CPWA
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
> Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
> Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free webinars!
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> David Feld
> Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2019 5:18 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Keyboard focus only
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and
> know the content is safe.
>
>
> Forgive me if this has already been discussed -- I scanned the archives
> and didn't see it: What are your general thoughts on applying focus
> only when keyboard use is detected? Paul Adam (who I've seen on this
> list) made a demo:
>
> [ http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html |
> http://pauljadam.com/demos/keyboard-focus-only.html ]
>
> In other words, mouse users would never see the focus. At first blush,
> this seems like a good way to make both keyboard users and web
> designers happy. Am I missing something?
>
> David
>
> David Feld
> Technical Director, Interactive Services Savannah College of Art and Design®
>
> [ mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] - [ http://www.scad.edu/ |
> www.scad.edu ] > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > >

From: Mallory
Date: Mon, Feb 11 2019 5:11AM
Subject: Re: Keyboard focus only
← Previous message | Next message →

Sorry, my events are on the -down event, not -up.

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Mallory wrote:
> I've been using 2 lines of JavaScript to hide huge/obvious focus rings
> from mouse users for some time now.
>
> Users can switch input modes whenever they want to.
>
> The issue with it is (besides if user testing showed sighted
> pointer-users feel lost without seeing a focus which belongs to the
> keyboard) is that it listens for `mouseup` and `keyup` events (styles
> default to keyboard meaning if no JS or no mouse events, keyboard focus
> styles show).
>
> It has occurred to me that there very well could be some setup where
> someone is acting like a sighted keyboard user and moving a
> keyboard-focus within the user agent but is not actually triggering
> "key-" events, though I don't know of one out of my head (I'm leaving
> touch alone, since they're weird and inconsistent in my testing, esp on
> desktop browsers on touchy-laptops/monitors). Even saying "press
> [somekey]" in Dragon triggers key events. What about switch control? I
> don't know, though I thought the various switch control programs out
> there overlayed their own focus styles...
>
> Lots of uncertainty but this has allowed me, as a bottom-rung front-end
> developer, to incorporate obvious visible focus styles for keyboard
> users when higher-rung designers and clients viewing demos complained
> about "people click the button and wonder why it looks funny/ugly."
>
> cheers,
> Mallory

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Mon, Feb 11 2019 5:36AM
Subject: Re: Keyboard focus only
← Previous message | No next message

On 06/02/2019 01:17, Jonathan Avila wrote:

> My concern is for users such as low vision users who switch back and forth between using the mouse and keyboard for navigation. There are cases where the user may use the keyboard and then the mouse and then may expect to take up where the keyboard was. Similar issue may happen for alternative input users as well who may switch between speech recognition and some other tool such as eye tracking. My preference would be to give the user control if keeping the keyboard focus is absolutely not possible. There was a discussion on github in the WICG https://github.com/WICG/focus-visible/issues/128

While this buried the lede a bit, I'd actually explicitly state that I'd
favor an approach using :focus-visible
(https://github.com/WICG/focus-visible) - as there is potential here for
user agents to provide override mechanisms if needed.

And while it's referenced from the readme of the :focus-visible
repository, I'd also point to this little musing I wrote a while ago
https://developer.paciellogroup.com/blog/2018/03/focus-visible-and-backwards-compatibility/

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke